Asking Ryan Smith of AT if a special examination could be done?

[NIGELG]

In short, the aim of the testing should be to provide the reader with a wealth of rich information that can inform his/her consumer decisions. It should not be about resolving a 'war' over whether X is smoother than Y...I prefer for that to be left to the interpretation of the educated consumer (though Ryan's expert opinion would of course be nice to hear).

Exactly....but I have no doubt in my mind this thread was started to spread FUD that Nvidia has the better(READ 'SMOOTHER' cards)...NOT out of any desire to help the consumer but to push them to choose NVIDIA cards or believe they are better which will influence their decision in future purchases.That is his job.

The original poster was a moderator and could have easily PM'ed Ryan Smith and ask him for this investigation instead of stirring up so much flames by starting this thread.


The original poster is a Nvidia Focus Group member who hardly ever 'focuses' on Nvidia products but simply bash AMD's.

 

[96Firebird]

Exactly....but I have no doubt in my mind this thread was started to spread FUD that Nvidia has the better(READ 'SMOOTHER' cards)...NOT out of any desire to help the consumer but to push them to choose NVIDIA cards or believe they are better which will influence their decision in future purchases.That is his job.

The original poster was a moderator and could have easily PM'ed Ryan Smith and ask him for this investigation instead of stirring up so much flames by starting this thread.


The original poster is a Nvidia Focus Group member who hardly ever 'focuses' on Nvidia products but simply bash AMD's.

Nobody cares about your pathetic conspiracy theories. Great, Keysplayr is an Nvidia Focus Group member. That doesn't change the fact that, so far, two review sites have brought up the issue in their reviews. It'll be great to go in depth with the investigation and see what comes of it.

But you're stuck on the fact that Keysplayr started the thread, get over it.

 

[NIGELG]

Nobody cares about your pathetic conspiracy theories. Great, Keysplayr is an Nvidia Focus Group member. That doesn't change the fact that, so far, two review sites have brought up the issue in their reviews. It'll be great to go in depth with the investigation and see what comes of it.

But you're stuck on the fact that Keysplayr started the thread, get over it.

Are you his wife or girlfriend?He can speak for himself I'm sure UNLESS You think the Nvidia Focus Group is recruiting and you're kissing up to him.

Two reviews sites out of dozens!!!The numbers don't add up.Why aren't more sites saying this?'Mountains out of molehills'....Ryan Smith.

 

[96Firebird]

Are you his wife or girlfriend?He can speak for himself I'm sure UNLESS You think the Nvidia Focus Group is recruiting and you're kissing up to him.

The (lack of) maturity in this post speaks volumes. Like I said before, nobody cares about your insane conspiracy theories. Go get your tin foil hat!

Two reviews sites out of dozens!!!The numbers don't add up.Why aren't more sites saying this?'Mountains out of molehills'....Ryan Smith.

Gotta start somewhere. Ryan Smith also said they will be looking into the issue when they get the proper equipment. Looks like this molehill is in fact turning into a mountain, with or without your crusade to crush it.

 

[KCfromNC]

There is no before and now data with the same setup and OS for Keysplayr to come to such a notion that smoothness has got worse in the first place or he would of put it forwards just like RS would of, in fact even i would of made more of an effort.

Actually, the Tech Report article says that the measurements* got better with more recent drivers - "I can tell you that we've seen the same spiky frame time plots in most of these games from three separate revisions of AMD's drivers—and, yes, Catalyst 12.11 is an improvement over 12.8, all told". So there is data to work with, it just goes against the idea that the newer drivers increased speed at the expense of more spiky measurements. Other than being factually wrong, though, it's not a bad bit of guessing on the OP's part.

* - and we still don't know if what TR measured actually relates to measured or perceived smoothness in actual gaming. It could be a bug with FRAPS in Win8. It could be nV drivers cheating in what they report. Or it could be a legitimate AMD problem. But pretending that there's actually a difference in smoothness is a stretch without further investigation - and any speculation based on top of this speculation is curious.

 

[NIGELG]

Like I said before, nobody cares about your insane conspiracy .

Who are you to speak for everybody?Get over yourself and address what I'm saying.

Those two sites are the only ones saying this stuff and you Nvidia people are eating it up.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Exactly....but I have no doubt in my mind this thread was started to spread FUD that Nvidia has the better(READ 'SMOOTHER' cards)...NOT out of any desire to help the consumer but to push them to choose NVIDIA cards or believe they are better which will influence their decision in future purchases.That is his job.

The original poster was a moderator and could have easily PM'ed Ryan Smith and ask him for this investigation instead of stirring up so much flames by starting this thread.


The original poster is a Nvidia Focus Group member who hardly ever 'focuses' on Nvidia products but simply bash AMD's.

And this right here folks is why there is such a problem in this section of the forums. I am going to go out on a limb and call bs on this entire post. The reason it was brought up is two sites mentioned it and their forums blew up. Ours had a few big threads too. It isn't because one guy is a focus group member. That is bs plain and simple.

Like I said before. Is fps the only thing that matters now? Can nvidia not have a good article written about them if it turns out that way? What if it is all true? You want everyone to ignore it? What of things were the other way around? Ignore it then too?

If this whole thing turns out to be untrue with today's drivers I want to know.

 

[Rikard]

Somewhat to our surprise, representatives from both AMD and Nvidia quickly and forthrightly acknowledged that multi-GPU micro-stuttering is a real problem

Sure, go ahead and make the test and article. But without the drama please. I cannot believe this thread has not been locked yet after 15 pages of troll posts. Since I have no plans on going SLI or Xfire any time soon I would only be marginally interested, but I would probably read the article anyway, and I suppose most people here feel the same way apart from a small number of ranters in this thread.

 

[ICDP]

And this right here folks is why there is such a problem in this section of the forums. I am going to go out on a limb and call bs on this entire post. The reason it was brought up is two sites mentioned it and their forums blew up. Ours had a few big threads too. It isn't because one guy is a focus group member. That is bs plain and simple.

Like I said before. Is fps the only thing that matters now? Can nvidia not have a good article written about them if it turns out that way? What if it is all true? You want everyone to ignore it? What of things were the other way around? Ignore it then too?

Dozens of AMD GPU users have stated they have no problems. Why should our opinion be classed as invalid or delusional? I have stated many times in this thread that there is no difference in feeling or stutter between my HD 7970 or GTX 680. If Nvidia truly did have this special "smoothness" you and others allude to then why am I and many others not seeing it? I am referring to single GPU use here.

Instead we are told.

• We are blind
• We don't know what MS is
• We are deniers
• We are being subjective
• We are AMD shills
• We are delusional

It's amazing how some people go to great lengths to defend their favourites. Just because Nvidia is slower now some people are inventing this "slower but smoother BS".

 

[Keysplayr]

Who are you to speak for everybody?Get over yourself and address what I'm saying.

Those two sites are the only ones saying this stuff and you Nvidia people are eating it up.

And I'm guessing that's what is eating you up. I'm very sorry brother but you're going to have to find a way to deal a little better when a situation comes along that you dont like. I dunno, maybe knit or something? Or maybe not "participate" if you really cant conduct youself in a respectable manner when speaking to your fellow forum members. All I'm seeing are bile filled posts and you are Beyond upset. You can say otherwise but boy it shows in your posts.

 

[Nintendesert]

Exactly....but I have no doubt in my mind this thread was started to spread FUD that Nvidia has the better(READ 'SMOOTHER' cards)...NOT out of any desire to help the consumer but to push them to choose NVIDIA cards or believe they are better which will influence their decision in future purchases.That is his job.

The original poster was a moderator and could have easily PM'ed Ryan Smith and ask him for this investigation instead of stirring up so much flames by starting this thread.


The original poster is a Nvidia Focus Group member who hardly ever 'focuses' on Nvidia products but simply bash AMD's.

Like you said, he's not a moderator anymore so you can put him on ignore. I don't think attacking him does you or your position much good. Does he have an agenda? Yes. Why shouldn't he? Everyone else on here does. Everyone had their favorite company and their own bias. At least he's open and honest about being a paid shill/enthusiast/whatever your own bias says he is.

There has been a long track record of all these video card companies playing games to get a head of each other in the IQ department, the FPS department etc.

If Nvidia is providing a better experience out of the box and AMD is requiring 3rd party tools to correct their out of box experience that is valuable information for the consumer. Not only that but widespread discourse on such issues has in the past propelled these companies to make changes. Maybe due to this kind of investigating AMD starts including RadeonPro in their packaging or even their drivers.

There's nothing wrong with asking Ryan in the public forum to look into this and generating community interest over it. Anandtech isn't going to waste resources, time and money on doing something that only a few people want to see done. They will however look into something if there is a large community desire for it. That's what these threads serve.

 

[wand3r3r]

After a LONG time ghosting these forums, I finally decided to sign up and start posting. This was a big decision. This 'Video Cards and Graphics' section has long fascinated me because several of you are knowledgeable, articulate, polite, and present logical arguments. At the same time, the level of AMD vs. NVIDIA feuding on these boards is simply staggering and has been the main reason why I've held off actually posting for so long.

I too would love to see Ryan or some other respectable reviewer carry out a high-speed camera test. If the same reported framerates on 2 different cards are not actually equal in terms of what a monitor outputs, then this is important for consumers to know.

If such testing happens, I agree with what many others have already said: The testing should be as detailed and varied as is feasible. This means:
- Single GPU as well as multiple GPU comparisons
- Comparisons between 'normal' gaming and gaming with VSYNC and/or frame limiters
- Comparisons with and without 3rd party tools like RadeonPro and NVIDIA inspector
- Etc.

In short, the aim of the testing should be to provide the reader with a wealth of rich information that can inform his/her consumer decisions. It should not be about resolving a 'war' over whether X is smoother than Y...I prefer for that to be left to the interpretation of the educated consumer (though Ryan's expert opinion would of course be nice to hear).

Disclaimer: I currently own a 7970 and love it. I have owned both ATI and NVIDIA (and 3Dfx) cards in the past and have loved nearly all of them. So PLEASE, if I start praising the 7970 in subsequent posts, do not label me as a fanboy. It could upset me or, God forbid, make me post something impolite

VC forums can always use more people who aren't so attached (or employed by) to their favorite brands.

 

[Will Robinson]

Dozens of AMD GPU users have stated they have no problems. Why should our opinion be classed as invalid or delusional? I have stated many times in this thread that there is no difference in feeling or stutter between my HD 7970 or GTX 680. If Nvidia truly did have this special "smoothness" you and others allude to then why am I and many others not seeing it? I am referring to single GPU use here.

Instead we are told.

• We are blind
• We don't know what MS is
• We are deniers
• We are being subjective
• We are AMD shills
• We are delusional

It's amazing how some people go to great lengths to defend their favourites. Just because Nvidia is slower now some people are inventing this "slower but smoother BS".

Well said.:thumbsup:

 

[NIGELG]

And I'm guessing that's what is eating you up. I'm very sorry brother but you're going to have to find a way to deal a little better when a situation comes along that you dont like. I dunno, maybe knit or something? Or maybe not "participate" if you really cant conduct youself in a respectable manner when speaking to your fellow forum members. All I'm seeing are bile filled posts and you are Beyond upset. You can say otherwise but boy it shows in your posts.

You are way too condescending but I am not your 'brother' and you are not a mod to tell me how to post.

Maybe you need to take up a hobby like 'English' ...nothing is eating me up nor am I filled with bile.I leave that for you who is full of hate.

I am so amused seeing you working for that Silicon though.Must be worth it to gain a few pieces of free hardware yet lose so much in return like independence and free thinking.

 

[AnandThenMan]

Like you said, he's not a moderator anymore so you can put him on ignore. I don't think attacking him does you or your position much good. Does he have an agenda? Yes. Why shouldn't he? Everyone else on here does.

Do you have a financial interest in making one company look good, and making another look bad as much as possible? Is it your job?

And not everyone has an agenda, sad if you actually believe that.

maybe knit or something?

What's wrong with knitting? I would actually like to know how to do it. As for the rest of your post, and most on here, why do you choose to conduct yourself in such an unprofessional manner? IMO you are representing Nvidia very poorly, they are a good company and deserve better. Instead of the constant mud slinging and proclamations of AMD's demise, why don't you just offer support and knowledge about Nvidia products, and respect people that use AMD hardware. And respect the company, they have brought tremendous innovation to us over the years, innovation that you yourself use on a daily basis.

 

[ICDP]

There has been a long track record of all these video card companies playing games to get a head of each other in the IQ department, the FPS department etc.

This is true, and potential purchasers need to know when this is the case. Though when making these claims you better have more to go on than one TR review that is contradicted by every other review out there, even by TR.

If Nvidia is providing a better experience out of the box and AMD is requiring 3rd party tools to correct their out of box experience that is valuable information for the consumer. Not only that but widespread discourse on such issues has in the past propelled these companies to make changes. Maybe due to this kind of investigating AMD starts including RadeonPro in their packaging or even their drivers.

In single GPU use I have to frequently use Nvidia inspector or Radeonpro to configure games to get the best from them. In many cases my GTX 680 does not give a good "out of the box" experience. So to state that Nvidia give a better out of the box experience is simply not true. I understand you said if but many actually think it is true. I would say the vast majority here use Nvidia inspector to enhance their experience, or even fix game specific problems with Nvidia hardware. I know I do.

There's nothing wrong with asking Ryan in the public forum to look into this and generating community interest over it. Anandtech isn't going to waste resources, time and money on doing something that only a few people want to see done. They will however look into something if there is a large community desire for it. That's what these threads serve.

Agreed, the problem is that if every single issue was investigated by review sites, they would be doing investigations full time. Should I ask why the GTX 680 stutters like crazy out of the box in the Witcher 2 (an TWIMTB title)? Or should I do what I did and add an FPS cap to fix of the problem and put it down as just another game issue?

 

[Keysplayr]

Do you have a financial interest in making one company look good, and making another look bad as much as possible? Is it your job?

And not everyone has an agenda, sad if you actually believe that.

What's wrong with knitting? I would actually like to know how to do it. As for the rest of your post, and most on here, why do you choose to conduct yourself in such an unprofessional manner? IMO you are representing Nvidia very poorly, they are a good company and deserve better. Instead of the constant mud slinging and proclamations of AMD's demise, why don't you just offer support and knowledge about Nvidia products, and respect people that use AMD hardware. And respect the company, they have brought tremendous innovation to us over the years, innovation that you yourself use on a daily basis.

::facepalm:: There isn't anything wrong with knitting, which is probably the reason I suggested it. Looks relaxing. You see how different we are? Even When we agree we have to make it sound like we don't. LOL

 

[NIGELG]

Chrisray[R.I.P] is the only one of them that I know of who made use of that Focus Group Position to actually focus on Nvidia and their products and features.He explained a lot about AA and image quality and many other things about Nvidia but never was involved in much drama or casting FUD.

I never saw him write a thing about ATi/AMD.And that is why he probably has the respect of most forum members on many sites even after the focus group was found out to be viral marketing.


Some people would do well to emulate him if they choose to be in that group.

 

[wand3r3r]

Like you said, he's not a moderator anymore so you can put him on ignore. I don't think attacking him does you or your position much good. Does he have an agenda? Yes. Why shouldn't he? Everyone else on here does. Everyone had their favorite company and their own bias. At least he's open and honest about being a paid shill/enthusiast/whatever your own bias says he is.

There has been a long track record of all these video card companies playing games to get a head of each other in the IQ department, the FPS department etc.

If Nvidia is providing a better experience out of the box and AMD is requiring 3rd party tools to correct their out of box experience that is valuable information for the consumer. Not only that but widespread discourse on such issues has in the past propelled these companies to make changes. Maybe due to this kind of investigating AMD starts including RadeonPro in their packaging or even their drivers.

There's nothing wrong with asking Ryan in the public forum to look into this and generating community interest over it. Anandtech isn't going to waste resources, time and money on doing something that only a few people want to see done. They will however look into something if there is a large community desire for it. That's what these threads serve.

I agree with the other points except claiming everyone has an agenda and bias. (A lot of posters seem to, and it's actually good keys has a disclaimer so you know when he's just bsing, or trying to help his employer. )

There are a large portion of us who want to know the facts and make decisions based upon factual information. I consider myself to be one of these and there are multiple users here who clearly don't blindly support companies or take sides.

That is correct that looking into these issues are precisely what will bring about change, and companies do shoddy things all the time (including hiring people to attempt to sway public opinion).

The only thing I have an issue with is the OP claiming 12.11 brings performance by sacrificing quality, that is just pulled out of his head or possibly his marketing handbook to smear the competition and create doubt. There has been no indication of this and he has no proof so to me it's simply a sponsored smear tactic. He also claims single gpus are smoother by his employer which is unproven, but I welcome the research and hopefully a non-subjective conclusion can be made.

Dual gpus has been proven to be smoother out of the box, but even then AMD currently offers higher FPS so if you can use a RadeonPro third party tool to provide the same lower smooth FPS (by capping or whatever) I just want to know the options. But this thread isn't about dual gpus.

 

[Keysplayr]

Chrisray[R.I.P] is the only one of them that I know of who made use of that Focus Group Position to actually focus on Nvidia and their products and features.He explained a lot about AA and image quality and many other things about Nvidia but never was involved in much drama or casting FUD.

I never saw him write a thing about ATi/AMD.And that is why he probably has the respect of most forum members on many sites even after the focus group was found out to be viral marketing.


Some people would do well to emulate him if they choose to be in that group.

You're too hung up on the OP rather than the subject. You see my posts here? That's me pre focus group, during focus group and after focus group. All me baby. Now concentrate on the subject of the thread would you?

 

[96Firebird]

This is true, and potential purchasers need to know when this is the case. Though when making these claims you better have more to go on than one TR review that is contradicted by every other review out there, even by TR.

Great! So you agree that further investigation is needed. Sounds like we are on the right track here, hopefully the reviewers can get it done before the new cards arrive, as I'm sure they will be swamped at that point.

 

[NIGELG]

This is something we will eventually look at, but as I've mentioned before it's not something I want to do until I have the right tools (which I am expecting sooner than later). Scott has done an amazing job with FRAPS, but that NVIDIA quote isn't wrong.

To really go at this I'd like to be able to time frame updates at a low level (i.e. the actual buffer swaps), but also keep track of a frame's time in the rendering pipeline. Ideally we need timestamps both for the buffer swap and the simulation itself. This is to check the rate at which frames are being displayed and the rate they're being generated. Both of these factors need to be consistent if you want to maximize smoothness. E.G. if frames are being displayed every 30ms but the simulation is generating them at a far more variable rate (say 15ms and 45ms repeating) then it's not going to be particularly smooth, just as if the buffer swaps are taking place at an uneven interval.

In the meantime however I'm personally satisfied with both AMD and NVIDIA in this regard; in my own personal experience I don't believe either of them to be notably worse than the other when it comes to single-GPU configurations. At the same time this community has a terrible habit of making mountains out of molehills, so if there's a "big war" brewing then I fear you guys might be taking this whole subject a bit too seriously. Spend less time looking at charts and more time playing video games, it's not like there's a shortage of good action games this year.

You're too hung up on the OP rather than the subject. You see my posts here? That's me pre focus group, during focus group and after focus group. All me baby. Now concentrate on the subject of the thread would you?

Cool but I am not your babyD:.

 

[Keysplayr]

Cool but I am not your babyD:.

Well then, whatever you are. :thumbsup;

 

[NIGELG]

Well then, whatever you are. :thumbsup;

LOL.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Honestly, I wonder what would happen if people on these forums started sending emails of the childish, silly, and unprofessional things Keys says in nearly every thread he posts in to Nvidia. I can't imagine that Nvidia would actually be pleased with the way he represents their brand. It seems like every post amounts to "I know you are but what am I!"

Instead of saying things like "the reason why these review sites are showing less stutter on nvidia hardware is because of interesting technology like..." Instead we get, "Nvidia is smoother because they didn't cheat in drivers like AMD to win benchmarks." "AMD didn't have microstutter until their 12.11 drivers because they cheated to win the performance crown." I know those aren't his exact words, but they equate to what he has said in the two threads regarding this topic. Nvidia could do much better in a representative if you ask me. I would go as far as saying I don't see myself buying nvidia hardware as long as a blatant troll is on their payroll mucking up the only tech forum I frequent.