Asking Ryan Smith of AT if a special examination could be done?

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Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Honestly, I wonder what would happen if people on these forums started sending emails of the childish, silly, and unprofessional things Keys says in nearly every thread he posts in to Nvidia. I can't imagine that Nvidia would actually be pleased with the way he represents their brand. It seems like every post amounts to "I know you are but what am I!"

Instead of saying things like "the reason why these review sites are showing less stutter on nvidia hardware is because of interesting technology like..." Instead we get, "Nvidia is smoother because they didn't cheat in drivers like AMD to win benchmarks." "AMD didn't have microstutter until their 12.11 drivers because they cheated to win the performance crown." I know those aren't his exact words, but they equate to what he has said in the two threads regarding this topic. Nvidia could do much better in a representative if you ask me. I would go as far as saying I don't see myself buying nvidia hardware as long as a blatant troll is on their payroll mucking up the only tech forum I frequent.

You can do that if you want to VD. I don't mind at all. Here, take a look at this:

"Member of Nvidia Focus Group
NVIDIA Focus Group Members receive free software and/or hardware from NVIDIA from time to time
to facilitate the evaluation of NVIDIA products. However, the opinions expressed are solely those of the Members."

Notice anything special about the wording? Also, do you see anything that says I represent Nvidia? No, I don't think you can.

Anyway, you, like NIGELG are becoming heavily hung up on me. I'm flattered, but it would probably be prudent at this time to get back to the subject of the thread. Not telling you how to post (Nigel so yelled at me for that), but I am telling you to back off of me personally. Which is something I CAN do.

So, from this point on, anyone going after me personally for being in the Nvidia focus group gets reported. All I'm saying.
 
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NIGELG

Senior member
Nov 4, 2009
851
31
91
You can do that if you want to VD. I don't mind at all. Here, take a look at this:

"Member of Nvidia Focus Group
NVIDIA Focus Group Members receive free software and/or hardware from NVIDIA from time to time
to facilitate the evaluation of NVIDIA products. However, the opinions expressed are solely those of the Members."

Notice anything special about the wording? Also, do you see anything that says I represent Nvidia? No, I don't think you can.

Anyway, you, like NIGELG are becoming heavily hung up on me. I'm flattered, but it would probably be prudent at this time to get back to the subject of the thread. Not telling you how to post (Nigel so yelled at me for that), but I am telling you to back off of me personally. Which is something I CAN do.

So, from this point on, anyone going after me personally for being in the Nvidia focus group gets reported. All I'm saying.
Lol....and here I'm thinking you can stand up for yourself but now you're threatening to run to ''the man'' or the 'boss' for support.Fight your battles on your own.

This,like many other things in graphics will be forgotten in the grand scheme of things.Your campaign for an investigation if successful will most likely prove nothing because unbiased technology to measure this stuff simply does not exist.

It all comes down to subjective views and two websites out of many dozens or hundreds out there is not enough for me.We have testimonies of many on the webs who choose Crossfire or single radeon setups and a huge percentage of them don't seem to think it's a problem.Dozens of reviews from websites exist and they haven't made an issue of it except those two.
 

ZeroRift

Member
Apr 13, 2005
195
6
81
Instead we are told.

  • We are blind
  • We don't know what MS is
  • We are deniers
  • We are being subjective
  • We are AMD shills
  • We are delusional
It's amazing how some people go to great lengths to defend their favourites. Just because Nvidia is slower now some people are inventing this "slower but smoother BS".

I'm not sure who's saying these things. I've read the whole thread at this point and see no evidence of this (perhaps I've missed it?).

I don't think anyone is calling your personal observations into question here. You believe they are comparable in "smoothness", and you are welcome to your opinion.

This thread is (supposed to be) about getting objective data to back that opinion or refute it. To date, no objective evidence has been provided that can address the OP.

Could it be marketing hyperbole? Yes.

Is it a question that enthusiasts want answered regardless? Also yes.

I don't see how Key's affiliation or (supposed) fabrication of evidence is relevant to the topic at hand. If he is knowingly posting FUD in order to make NVIDIA look better AND you can prove it, you should take it to a mod. Thread-crapping and ad-hominem arguments are unbecoming and do not belong in a tech forum.
 

VulgarDisplay

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2009
6,193
2
76
You can do that if you want to VD. I don't mind at all. Here, take a look at this:

"Member of Nvidia Focus Group
NVIDIA Focus Group Members receive free software and/or hardware from NVIDIA from time to time
to facilitate the evaluation of NVIDIA products. However, the opinions expressed are solely those of the Members."

Notice anything special about the wording? Also, do you see anything that says I represent Nvidia? No, I don't think you can.

Anyway, you, like NIGELG are becoming heavily hung up on me. I'm flattered, but it would probably be prudent at this time to get back to the subject of the thread. Not telling you how to post (Nigel so yelled at me for that), but I am telling you to back off of me personally. Which is something I CAN do.

So, from this point on, anyone going after me personally for being in the Nvidia focus group gets reported. All I'm saying.

I'm just honestly criticizing the way you conduct yourself. If you want to take that as a personal attack that's your right. Either way, Nvidia is associated with you and they should care how you act when their brand name is associated with you.

I'm done with this now so the thread doesn't get locked because I really do think it's a great topic that the current testing has only scratched the surface of. In the long run both companies will benefit from any research done.
 

ICDP

Senior member
Nov 15, 2012
707
0
0
I'm not sure who's saying these things. I've read the whole thread at this point and see no evidence of this (perhaps I've missed it?).

I don't think anyone is calling your personal observations into question here. You believe they are comparable in "smoothness", and you are welcome to your opinion.

This thread is (supposed to be) about getting objective data to back that opinion or refute it. To date, no objective evidence has been provided that can address the OP.

Could it be marketing hyperbole? Yes.

Is it a question that enthusiasts want answered regardless? Also yes.

I don't see how Key's affiliation or (supposed) fabrication of evidence is relevant to the topic at hand. If he is knowingly posting FUD in order to make NVIDIA look better AND you can prove it, you should take it to a mod. Thread-crapping and ad-hominem arguments are unbecoming and do not belong in a tech forum.

I could list all the posts where those accusations were aimed at me personally, and a number that were directed at other AMD users who dared to state they had no problems with stutters with AMD GPUs any more than Nvidia (single GPUs).

My stance has always been that my experience with AMD and Nvidia is identical in smoothness, though the HD 7970 is generally faster. This is based on having used both GTX 680 and HD 7970 in single GPU configurations.

If AMD cards gave the stutters as suggested by the OP then I would most certainly NOT be defending AMD. I would be up in arms demanding they fix the problem. If you read this thread you can see many posts that refute the TR findings and even bring into question the validity of the results. Yet we still have Nvidia users asking "can we have an investigation". Do you really think every single one of the AMD owners in this thread are part of a big conspiracy to hide the fact that their cards stutter and run like crap? We just refuse to accept that our poor eyes are deceiving us according to this guy.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=34341731&postcount=147

Do you know WHY we have reviews?
Because peoples eyes cannot be trusted.

Even to this date, we have people who refuse to look at the data...and thinks micro-stutter is made up.

Just because your fysiology is to bad to detect it.....dosn't mean other people can't detect it.
Or high speed cameras cannot detect it.

Bottom line:

You eyes are not a vaild source of facts....get over it.
 
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cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
Dozens of AMD GPU users have stated they have no problems. Why should our opinion be classed as invalid or delusional? I have stated many times in this thread that there is no difference in feeling or stutter between my HD 7970 or GTX 680. If Nvidia truly did have this special "smoothness" you and others allude to then why am I and many others not seeing it? I am referring to single GPU use here.

Instead we are told.

  • We are blind
  • We don't know what MS is
  • We are deniers
  • We are being subjective
  • We are AMD shills
  • We are delusional
It's amazing how some people go to great lengths to defend their favourites. Just because Nvidia is slower now some people are inventing this "slower but smoother BS".

No problems doesn't mean no stutter or a measurable amount that might detract from the gameplay when directly compared under the same settings and circumstances as the competition.

Lets face it, everyone wants to feel that they spent their money wisely. Nobody likes to hear bad things about the products they invested in. That's given.

Again you and others here want to go back to "nvidia is slower, this is reassurance". That is BS and you know it. You just don't want anything positive written about Nvidia, it's that clear to me. You're afraid that's the way the testing might lean. You hold onto numbers and think that's all there is.

Why limit this to single GPU testing anyway? The whole reason people have been talking about radeon pro lately is because it basically fixes a problem AMD has been unable to do all along, eliminate or at the very least lessen to the point it's basically unnoticeable, microstutter in multi-GPU setups. I'm not a fan of the method for achieving this but it works. Nobody in this entire thread is telling you that one is smoother than another when run as a single card solution. You made that up.
 
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Goatsecks

Senior member
May 7, 2012
210
7
76
This thread has been ruined by the forums obsession with polarizing every argument.

Needs to be cleaned up or locked.

=[
 

ICDP

Senior member
Nov 15, 2012
707
0
0
No problems doesn't mean no stutter or a measurable amount that might detract from the gameplay when directly compared under the same settings and circumstances as the competition.

Lets face it, everyone wants to feel that they spent their money wisely. Nobody likes to hear bad things about the products they invested in. That's given.

Again you and others here want to go back to "nvidia is slower, this is reassurance". That is BS and you know it. You just don't want anything positive written about Nvidia, it's that clear to me.

Oh dear, this again

I own a system with a GTX 680 and I'm very happy with it. I also own another system with a HD 7970 and I'm very happy with it. I recommend graphics cards all the time based on what a person needs or wants from his or her gaming experience. I have absolutely no allegiance whatsover to a faceless company that only wants our hard earned money. I give credit where credit is due and am happy to praise Nvidia when it is warranted.

Your idea that nobody likes to feel like they wasted their money is true up to a point. When the quality of a product falls below an acceptable level people who paid for them WILL complain. If AMD cards had unacceptable stutter do you honestly think everyone who owned one would keep quiet about it?
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
Oh dear, this again

I own a system with a GTX 680 and I'm very happy with it. I also own another system with a HD 7970 and I'm very happy with it. I recommend graphics cards all the time based on what a person needs or wants from his or her gaming experience. I have absolutely no allegiance whatsover to a faceless company that only wants our hard earned money. I give credit where credit is due and am happy to praise Nvidia when it is warranted.

Your idea that nobody likes to feel like they wasted their money is true up to a point. When the quality of a product falls below an acceptable level people who paid for them WILL complain. If AMD cards had unacceptable stutter do you honestly think everyone who owned one would keep quiet about it?

What if they have no basis of comparison? No control group like in science class. You know...it's like putting two pictured in front of someone of an identical vista. Could they tell that one was shot at 14MP and one at 8MP? Likely not unless you told them.

So I say put the numbers out there from a reliable 3rd party and back it up with facts. Forget all the forum BS and chest thumping. Just give us the facts and we will draw our own conclusions. If this whole thing turns out to be so minimal it doesn't matter then great. No harm. However, to simply say "the only reason you want to see this test is Nvidia has slower cards" is pretty close minded. To also call out Keys for wanting to see this testing is pretty sad IMO. I mean if AMD had a focus group come in here and ask for a comparison of something would it be met with the same hostility? I don't know the answer to that.

I personally want all the information I can get. Micro stutter is one piece of the puzzle that needs to be settled with current drivers and current hardware. So far it hasn't been settled and that's why the debate rages on. A few people/sites mention it without any testing and what do you know...people want to know what they mean and how much worse or better one might be over another and whether it changes with some 3rd party software and to what extent it affects input lag along with the micro stutter and if there's a balance to be had etc etc etc.
 
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Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
I'm just honestly criticizing the way you conduct yourself. If you want to take that as a personal attack that's your right. Either way, Nvidia is associated with you and they should care how you act when their brand name is associated with you.

I'm done with this now so the thread doesn't get locked because I really do think it's a great topic that the current testing has only scratched the surface of. In the long run both companies will benefit from any research done.

Yeah well, I don't have thin skin, but do not expect a perfect gentlemen out of me when I need to fire back. But, enough is enough now. There has been enough thread crapping and enough ad hom in this thread. Time to end that BS and get on with the discussion.
 

Elfear

Diamond Member
May 30, 2004
7,115
690
126
Yeah well, I don't have thin skin, but do not expect a perfect gentlemen out of me when I need to fire back. But, enough is enough now. There has been enough thread crapping and enough ad hom in this thread. Time to end that BS and get on with the discussion.

I don't know if there is any discussion until Ryan gets the tools he needs to accurately test smoothness between both camps. So I guess this thread can die until then?
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Oh dear, this again

I own a system with a GTX 680 and I'm very happy with it. I also own another system with a HD 7970 and I'm very happy with it. I recommend graphics cards all the time based on what a person needs or wants from his or her gaming experience. I have absolutely no allegiance whatsover to a faceless company that only wants our hard earned money. I give credit where credit is due and am happy to praise Nvidia when it is warranted.

Your idea that nobody likes to feel like they wasted their money is true up to a point. When the quality of a product falls below an acceptable level people who paid for them WILL complain. If AMD cards had unacceptable stutter do you honestly think everyone who owned one would keep quiet about it?

According to H, What feels smooth on 680SLI at 40 fps requires 60 to 70 fps on 7970CF to "feel as smooth" in their review. Would that fall above, or below, your acceptable level?
Just let it happen man. Let us discuss this as we wish to discuss this. I makes absolutely no sense for you to oppose or downplay any of this. EVEN IF all subsequent testing proves inconclusive or even shows AMD in a better light than Nvidia, you should not even for a split second have any problems. After all, it has zero affect on you as you are currently perfectly happy with your setup. That is fine. So are many other people. Great. It's time to let it go and just watch it happen no matter the outcome. Agreed?
 
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Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
I don't know if there is any discussion until Ryan gets the tools he needs to accurately test smoothness between both camps. So I guess this thread can die until then?

Probably for now, but I'm going to ask other reviewers if they'd investigate. I could update this thread with links and such, also if any are given I could update the OP.
 

AnandThenMan

Diamond Member
Nov 11, 2004
3,949
504
126
Instead of saying things like "the reason why these review sites are showing less stutter on nvidia hardware is because of interesting technology like..." Instead we get, "Nvidia is smoother because they didn't cheat in drivers like AMD to win benchmarks." "AMD didn't have microstutter until their 12.11 drivers because they cheated to win the performance crown." I know those aren't his exact words, but they equate to what he has said in the two threads regarding this topic. Nvidia could do much better in a representative if you ask me. I would go as far as saying I don't see myself buying nvidia hardware as long as a blatant troll is on their payroll mucking up the only tech forum I frequent.
This is exactly what I have been trying to say, but you said it better.
You can do that if you want to VD. I don't mind at all. Here, take a look at this:

"Member of Nvidia Focus Group
NVIDIA Focus Group Members receive free software and/or hardware from NVIDIA from time to time
to facilitate the evaluation of NVIDIA products. However, the opinions expressed are solely those of the Members."

Notice anything special about the wording? Also, do you see anything that says I represent Nvidia? No, I don't think you can.
Yea we notice. As with most disclaimers, they end up meaning the exact opposite, and/or are there so the company can distance themselves from anything they don't deem appropriate. You represent Nvidia, doesn't matter what the tag line in your sig says. People know you get free hardware and in exchange you pimp Nvidia hardware and talk down about the competition at every opportunity. Do you really expect people to believe that Nvidia gives you free hardware, and you are free to say whatever you want? What if all you did was promote AMD graphics, how long do you think Nvidia would keep you in the loop. So let's not pretend that what you post here is ONLY your opinion, that is laughable at best.
So, from this point on, anyone going after me personally for being in the Nvidia focus group gets reported. All I'm saying.
People are going to continue to attack your positions if they think they are incorrect, and especially if you are spreading FUD, which is exactly what you are doing. There are consequences of what you post here, if you can't handle that then you are best not to make inflammatory threads. Take responsibility for your actions.
My stance has always been that my experience with AMD and Nvidia is identical in smoothness, though the HD 7970 is generally faster. This is based on having used both GTX 680 and HD 7970 in single GPU configurations.
This is exactly my experience, except I have a 670 so my 7970 distances itself a bit more. But overall, it is not that easy to tell which card is doing the rendering, both are extremely fast and capable pieces of hardware.
Do you really think every single one of the AMD owners in this thread are part of a big conspiracy to hide the fact that their cards stutter and run like crap?
There is a certain group of people who think exactly that, and outright state as such. Supposedly this form is "infested" with AMD shills that hide their affiliations, in fact it goes all the way up to the moderators and admins.
I don't know if there is any discussion until Ryan gets the tools he needs to accurately test smoothness between both camps. So I guess this thread can die until then?
Exactly.
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
I don't know if there is any discussion until Ryan gets the tools he needs to accurately test smoothness between both camps. So I guess this thread can die until then?

Still no high-speed camera or software equivalent? Then this thread might as well be locked up until then, yes.
 

Lepton87

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2009
2,544
9
81
According to H, What feels smooth on 680SLI at 40 fps requires 60 to 70 fps on 7970CF to "feel as smooth" in their review. Would that fall above, or below, your acceptable level?
And you based all of this on what H feels is smooth. H always had a different idea on what was playable and what was not playable then me. H site often had graphs with avg 45fps and minimums under 30 fps and said it was playable. 40 fps would never feel silky smooth for me, I need that constant 60fps to be completely satisfied with smoothness. I've owned a lot of nV cards and their 40 fps also didn't feel smooth. H subjective feelings are and always were COMPLETELY irrelevant to me. If your job is to promote nV products and not bash the competition then answer me this: is GTX690 smoother then 680SLI? I ask this because nV talks about hardware metering system on GTX690 page and none of the reviews said that GTX690 provides better gaming experience than 680SLI. I already asked that question, (probably in this thread but I'm not sure) but instead of answering questions about nV hardware you're on a campaign to bash AMD's cards.
 

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
How do Xbit Labs test their 99th percentile frame times? Does that not have bearing on microstutter?
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
And you based all of this on what H feels is smooth. H always had a different idea on what was playable and what was not playable then me. H site often had graphs with avg 45fps and minimums under 30 fps and said it was playable. 40 fps would never feel silky smooth for me, I need that constant 60fps to be completely satisfied with smoothness. I've owned a lot of nV cards and their 40 fps also didn't feel smooth. H subjective feelings are and always were COMPLETELY irrelevant to me. If your job is to promote nV products and not bash the competition then answer me this: is GTX690 smoother then 680SLI? I ask this because nV talks about hardware metering system on GTX690 page and none of the reviews said that GTX690 provides better gaming experience than 680SLI. I already asked that question, (probably in this thread but I'm not sure) but instead of answering questions about nV hardware you're on a campaign to bash AMD's cards.

Whoosh.
Actually, I'm on a campaign to buy an AMD card. Just browsing Newegg but can't decide.
Seriously though, although I am going to purchase an AMD card, or two for CF, my "campaign" is to get a few review site editors to investigate.
Not to bash AMD. I bet you can't even find me bashing AMD anywhere in this thread. Yet you say I am. I suppose you think the 12.11 opinion of mine is bashing when it's only an opinion and pure speculation. Difference is, because I am me, you call it bashing. So be it. Don't really care.
 

lavaheadache

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2005
6,893
14
81
Whoosh.
Actually, I'm on a campaign to buy an AMD card. Just browsing Newegg but can't decide.
Seriously though, although I am going to purchase an AMD card, or two for CF, my "campaign" is to get a few review site editors to investigate.
Not to bash AMD. I bet you can't even find me bashing AMD anywhere in this thread. Yet you say I am. I suppose you think the 12.11 opinion of mine is bashing when it's only an opinion and pure speculation. Difference is, because I am me, you call it bashing. So be it. Don't really care.

do I get dibs again?
 

Firestorm007

Senior member
Dec 9, 2010
396
1
0
Whoosh.
Actually, I'm on a campaign to buy an AMD card. Just browsing Newegg but can't decide.
Seriously though, although I am going to purchase an AMD card, or two for CF, my "campaign" is to get a few review site editors to investigate.
Not to bash AMD. I bet you can't even find me bashing AMD anywhere in this thread. Yet you say I am. I suppose you think the 12.11 opinion of mine is bashing when it's only an opinion and pure speculation. Difference is, because I am me, you call it bashing. So be it. Don't really care.
A campaign to purchase a new AMD card. Oh, this is getting good now. Did you suddenly have an epiphany that AMD is better or something; or is to report all of AMD's misgivings. Sorry, save your $$$, because nobody is going to buy it or for one second or take your findings seriously. Your crusade is not admirable at this point; its rather lame. I really don't know what you hope to accomplish here, but any savvy enthusiast will see right through you. But, by all means, carry on...
 

AnandThenMan

Diamond Member
Nov 11, 2004
3,949
504
126
I predict Keys will have horrific problems with his AMD cards. :'( BTW I'm going to give Nvidia a call tomorrow, should be interesting.
 

lavaheadache

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2005
6,893
14
81
Guys Keys has bought AMD cards before, he used to have a HD 5870 I believe...

yup, then he sold it to me =) If you guys could get over the disclaimer in his sig you would probably like the guy. Jealousy has that effect on some people I guess.

Keys I'm still waiting on my initiation into the NFG. I think I would be good at facilitating the evaluation of nVidia products. kidding, or am I? :whiste:
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
A campaign to purchase a new AMD card. Oh, this is getting good now. Did you suddenly have an epiphany that AMD is better or something; or is to report all of AMD's misgivings. Sorry, save your $$$, because nobody is going to buy it or for one second or take your findings seriously. Your crusade is not admirable at this point; its rather lame. I really don't know what you hope to accomplish here, but any savvy enthusiast will see right through you. But, by all means, carry on...

I just want to mess around with the 79xx's.

Yes lava you will have dibs. But how many tahitis do you really need? LoL!
 
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