ASRock Z97 Extreme9 Ultra M.2 x4 and PCIe lanes

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Insert_Nickname

Diamond Member
May 6, 2012
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'Course in my insomniac haze last night I started obsessing over which super thin bezel is actually the thinnest for use in a three monitor setup! Maybe I need more than two GPUs!

Depends on the resolution. A couple of 290(X)/780(TI)'s should handle 3x1080p with ease. If you're running 3x1440p, you might be cutting it a bit close though.

At which point I'd seriously consider taking the plunge to Haswell-E, simply because I feel if you run more then 2 GPUs on an LGA-1150/55/56 platform there are too many compromises for what you'll end up paying. If we're already talking 4x 290(X)/780(TI)-class GPUs it seems a bit weird to "save" on the platform, when the added expense for an LGA-2011 is minuscule compared to the cost of 4 GPUs.

But that's just my personal opinion...
 

Incriminated

Junior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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Well yeah several test have proven that the theory that 8x Gen3 - which delivers nearly same bandwith than 16x Gen2 - show a minimally performance drop of <1% on actual enthusiast GPU-generations in SLI/Crossfire compared to 16x Gen3... so we might see this drop increase in future generations (i.e. enthusiast-maxwell).

The deal is than anything from Triple-SLI onwards would need an PLX chip on <=Z97 and while the cards are interconnected with SLI-bridges to allow CPU-unbound transfers via PCIe (or via the PLX chip), the PLX chip on the other hand allows multi-cast transfers up to quadrupling input-signal in terms of bandwith.

So wether or not the CPU-PCIe uplink for filling up the VRAM of the SLI/Crossfire is limited to 14x, 12x or even 8x because of an M.2 Ultra, wether or not its using 4x PCIe Gen2 or Gen3... even at 8x that still represents nearly the bandwith of 16x Gen2 (~7,9Gb/s) uplink to the SLI and in fact is probably higher (12x or 14x depending on Gen of the M.2 Ultra). The PXE multi-casts that to an output bandwith of nearly ~31,5GB/s overall to all cards (~7,9Gb/s each), while the secondary (and third and forth) GPU cards of the SLI/Crossfire-array still can send frames to the primary card where you should connect the display.

The CPU filling up the VRAM is only a bottleneck at all in nearly no game... because it happens during loading-times. Usually the amount of dynamic cahing is so low, that even PCIe 4x Gen2 could satisfy it... you can easily proof that in single-GPU PCIe performance-tests.

The thing consuming most PCIe bandwith (next to mining) in part of gaming during the game itself is frame-transferiing to the primary cards framebuffer.... which have the opportunity to run CPU unbound when connected to a PLX.

It is also true that these "framebuffer-transfers" increase with resolution, bitdepth and higher framerate but also true that depending on your "framerate-target" (like 60, 100,120,144++) the transferrate each cards needs to deliver prerendered frames to the primary card decreases per number of GPUS. To give you an example... while in DualSLI the secondary cards need to send 72fps to the primary card to reach 144fps... this drops down to 36 frames is Quad-SLI.... this means that the need for PCIe-bandwith in terms of deliving frames to the framebuffer decreases on same frame-target when you add another GPU.... so more GPUs = less bandwith needed per card for the same goal!

That means if it really occurs that your SLI "practically" is low on PCIe bandwith to reach your target-framerate... simply ADD another card!

So while the performance drop might be considered 1 or 2%, this will also apply compared to X79/X99 even at Quad-SLI which runs on the Extreme9 @ 8,8,8,8 perfectly with an 8x upstream to the PLX. Also i think the X79/X99 cannot go higher than 8,8,8,8 (32xx) without multiple PLX chips and then also sends 4 times the same bits on each of Quad-SLIs 8x lanes.

Keep in mind that on a 8x/8x-SLI without a PLX-Chip... it consumes 16 lanes of the CPU basically sending exactly same bits on each 8 lanes... but using a PLX-chip does the same transfer using only 8x CPU-lanes while adding lag of about 100nanoseconds.... and also keep in mind, that there is therefore no advantage in having 32 lanes available without a PLX-chip! SO you would need Haswell-E WITH at least one PLX to achieve 16x effective uplink for anything higher than Dual-SLI and then still be stuck on 16,8.8 in triple or 8,8,8,8 in quad on the end of the tunnel if you not have another PLX-chip to enable configurations like 16,16,16,16... (64 lanes).

I guess those boards are XXL and are ultra-high-priced...for what? 1% advantage in any actual generation SLIs... maybe 3 or 4% in next gen??
I dont think it's worth it.

The math (although its technically impossible to go 4K@144hz) says sending 36 frames (i.e. quad-sli @144hz) each 4k-pixelsize frames @ 32 bit consumes a send-bandwith of about 1,3 Gb/s per non-primary card and 3,9 Gb/s receive bandwith of primary card.... that means even PCIe 8x Gen2 would be practically enough, although 8x Gen 3 would better since the primary card needs to receive VRAM transfers from game-data the CPU pushes in from RAM sometimes too.

This brings us to the point that 16x Gen3 uplink still is considered total "overkill" for actual GPU-gen, because no matter if its Dual, Triple or Quad an PLX delivering 8x Gen3 uplink turns out 99% of performance in any possible configuration up to enthusiast quad. Sorry guys.

On the other hand the point is true that the i4790K overcocked capabilities enable quite better gaming-experience (i.e. in MMORPGs) because of its massively higher single-thread performance.... go and try Rift! ;p

So in fact this board with an 4790K and an enthusiast Dual-SLI like 780 Ti (or additional dedicated PhysX) in part with Samsung XP941 or SM951 will run fine and still give you opportunity to go Triple or Quad without serious performance drop to the point where you could consider the Triple or Quad on the board worth it in terms of performance.

True, it might eventually come in handy for multi-display-solutions like 3d-surround AND 4k same time, still i doubt it .. it should work flawless with at least Triple-SLI @ 3x 60hz-4K on a 8x Gen3 uplink by math without any significant performance drop... but it is seriously definetly perfect choice for any single display pc dedicated to gaming i.e. with single WQHD-G-Sync @144hz or even 4K since thats limited to 60hz at all.

So IMHO there is absolutely no reason to wait and pay lots of more money for a Haswell-E plattform on a single-display gaming-pc only. Just my 50 cents.


I actually wait for this board beeing delivered to replace my §!&$% MSI Z97 Gaming 7 which does not even allow me to add a a dedicated PhysX to my Dual-SLI. The XP941 is also to be delivered.. Try to get that hole thing done on a siginificantly higher priced MSI XPower AC .. Good Luck with the M.2 10Gbps...


Edit: Just to tell you the math...3x 4K-32Bit@60hz requires ~2,17 Gb/s send bandwith fo second and third GPU and receive bandwith of 4,34 Gb/s on the primary card. 8x Gen3 still delivers ~7,9Gb/s each card and uplink... so theres at least ~3,56Gb/s traffic left on the cards to receive uplink for CPU-inbound GPU-VRAM cashing, while 60fps on all 4k-displays still can be maintained... which is not much indeed but enough to keep the average game vsynced at 60 and cashing lots of objects on demand most of the time not bottlenecking to serious unplayable minimums on a triple 780 ti for example. sure depending on the game you cant go all ultra on triple 4k using even quad-780Ti... but thats problem of the GPU-power not beeing capable generating that much of frames, not the bandwith of the lanes delivering that frames to primary card at all.

In fact same as actual SSDs cannot even halfly utilize M.2-Ultra... actual and next-gen Quad-SLI could not even utilize 16x Gen3 PCIe multi-casted uplink... (when you focus only on gaming) which is made for display- and card-combinations not available even on white paper until 2016.

Also to allow all that next-gen-display-thingy via monitor-cables we would need the primary GPU to have at least 3x latest Display Port

Thats a lots of... not available... right now to pay so much money for 32 lanes, just quad-chan RAM and few more cores while all beeing lower clocked.
 
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Incriminated

Junior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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Just to give you another calculation.

Assuming you have 3x 780 Ti on the Asrock Z97 Extreme 9 and a dedicated PhysX, that means uplink is at least 8x (~7,9 Gb/s) while modes are 8,8,8,8.

Lets assume your main-display is Asus PG278Q (144hz, 1440p, G-Sync) and you have 2 other 1440p displays at 144hz enabling you to use 3D-Surround instead of G-Sync .

On Triple-SLI we want each card processing 48 frames of each of the three display, to match all together @ 144, thats how AFR works.

So the calc is:

2560 pixels times 1440 pixels times 32 bits times 144 frames per second equals 16,2 Gigabits per seconds equals ~2 Gigabyte per second.

So for a triple-SLI-780Ti to be capable to process 3D-Surround on triple-display each 1440p @ 144hz vsynced properly you would need the non-primary cards be able to send ~2 Gigabyte/s and the primary card be able to receive ~4 Gigabyte/s.

In case you have a 8x Gen3 uplink only which delivers ~7,9 Gigabyte/s CPU-inbound traffic... that still allows for up to another ~3,9 Gigabyte/s CPU-inbound VRAM transfer to the SLI without the neccesity to drop below 144fps because of bandwith!

Still in fact the framebuffer transfers on a PXE occur CPU-outbound only between the cards without even touching a CPU-lane.... so the real amount of capable CPU-inbound VRAM-transfer bandwith is in fact that high than this calculated minimum amount!

Try argue that 2011 fans Nevermind, just a joke.... always money needs senseless ways to be spend
 
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SantaAna12

Member
Jun 24, 2008
56
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I am considering picking one of these up for crossfire and the m.2 format.

Anyone with some more input?
 

HKILLER

Junior Member
Oct 3, 2014
7
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I actually wanna get one of these boards so badly but the reviews on Newegg are making me worry so much...in terms of features this thing is on par with EVGA Z97 Classified which is $100 more expensive than this but i wanted to see a major site do a review on this...no one has...so i'm asking from those who have the board..how is it?does it have any problem?how is the over clocking?if you have a 4790K how much were you able to overclock it?i don't have a problem getting the EVGA board but if this one is working fine i would rather not spend $100 extra...
 

HKILLER

Junior Member
Oct 3, 2014
7
0
0
yeah but i don't think making a new topic would help...if no one is going to answer so it better be in a related topic anyway...
 

SantaAna12

Member
Jun 24, 2008
56
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One new review on newegg if your interested.

I am leaning towards the Extreme6.......I think I can make that work and I like the specs. Better feedback too.

Good luck.
 

HKILLER

Junior Member
Oct 3, 2014
7
0
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actually i'm fine with extreme 11 cuz i figured out the score of it is ruined by 1 person Jason M cuz he wrote 3 reviews saying the same thing with a 1 egg score...it's actually a very good board to me but i will be doing my shopping near Christmas since i got into trouble with my budget....
 

Incriminated

Junior Member
Aug 22, 2014
4
0
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Im actually running Dual-SLI Gigabyte GeForce GTX 780 Ti GHZ on this board.
Also im using the Samsung XP941 in the M.2-Ultra#1-Slot (PCIe 4xGen3).

Still the cards show up as PCIe 16x Gen3 both of them.
This is because the board not only features a PEX8474, but a seperated additional PCIe-Switch right in-front of that.



I have no idea how this kinda magic keeps up PCIe x16 to the cards while the M.2-Ultra keeps beeing accessible. I guess people are right that the board may physically decrease PEX's uplink to 12 PCIe Gen3 while the M.2-Ultra actively beeing used.

Whatever....

I will test adding third card for PhysX. Maybe it will work in #5 so beeing hooked to the PEX too, hhat would STILL allow 16x PCIe Gen3...
Correction: No it won't. Its then: 16x-primSLI / 8x-physx / 8x-secSLI

Still very good....coz it's Gen3!

PS Wait for my PSU beeing replaced, keep you informed when Im back in gaming.

I fear my PSU beeing returned without an error beeing found. Been experiencing power-losses in SLI. The GPUs are fine. Can this be because of PCIe switch that dynamically throttles my lanes to the PEX down when the game is accessing the M.2-Ultra ????

If the PSU is not faulty, i will return the motherboard to the reseller!!! What about a UEFI option to tweak the PCIe-lanes... why I am not able to tell the Slots which Speed and which GenX to run like used to on profesisonal boards? I could try forcing 8x Gen3 on the SLI that way to avoid mysterious power-losses...
 
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Incriminated

Junior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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I wonder about the information here on the first pages that the PEX 8747 multiplexes the signal via a tunnel, so in fact sharing the bandwith... i.e. while reporting 16/16 iit's the bandwith of 8x/8x. That is not true.

The specification of the PEX8748 clearly says this:

Multicast - The Multicast feature enables copying data (packets) from one ingress port to multiple (up to4) egress ports in one transaction allowing for higher performance in dual-graphics[...]. Multicast relieves the CPU from having to conduct multiple redundant transactions, resulting in higher system performance.

Also there is another feature of the PEX8747:

Dual-GPU w/ Peer-to-Peer Communication - [...] The peer-to-peer support of the PEX 8747 allows the two GPUs to communicate with each other for maximum performance. [...] This mode of operation is reffered to as Supertiling, and is generally the most efficient because it evely divides the processing and graphic rendering workloads across the two GPUs. This usage model calls for heavy peer-to-peer communication between the GPUs. [...] Scissors, or AFR modes. In each of this modes, the processing and graphic renderingworkload is shared by the GPUs, and therefore requires a great amount of peer-to-peer communication between the GPUs to monitor each other's progress and execution.

So the hole "multiplexing is reducing your bandwith - story" is entirely not true.

In fact a PEX is reducing your CPUs-PCIe-buses usage alot.

And the dual-SLI is reporting 16x, because those virtual PCIe ports on the PEX really feature 16x P2P-traffic between the cards.

While using the M.2-Ultra makes the uplink to the PEX reduced to 8x Gen3 in fact, but you cannot see this information in Nvidia-CP or GPU-Z. Anyways, performance of the 8x uplink is nearly the same speed 16x Gen2, while the P2P-traffic allows for higher transfer, I sincerly dont think it will affect my performace more than 1%, since in SLI most of the PCIe-traffic can be managed through P2P by nvidia-driver (without CPU).

Of cause this is only counting for Single-Screen.
See the spec:
http://www.avagotech.com/products/pcie-switches-bridges/pcie-switches/pex8747

So i think while not using multiple-monitors the PEX features lots of advantages .
 
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