Assisted living facility with a "No CPR" policy.

[lxskllr]

You made up a story. That makes you pretty wrong from an objective standpoint.

DNR is a pretty common policy at these places. Don't like it, don't send your folks there.

I didn't make up anything. CPR training is standard practice for the most elementary care when dealing with people. You're talking out your ass. You don't know what the fuckin' situation was, and neither do I. Now you just need to put on your big boys pants, and admit it.

 

[Rakehellion]

I am all for "living will" type things. But this does not sound like one of those situations. this was a across the board policy of no cpr.

if it is a living will then fine if it says NO CPR then you fallow that.

So you're under the impression that these people were tricked into believing they'd be offered CPR when necessary? That they never mentioned this up front in any way and it's this facility's goal to let people die against their will?

 

[highland145]

Breaking news....Grandma was worth $6.8M...dead. No wonder the family isn't blaming the nurse.


I made that up.

 

[sourceninja]

This is common in assisted living. The nurses on duty are there to give meds, take vitals, address any non-life threatening ailments. If anything major comes up they call emergency personel and are taken to a hospital.

This isnt a nursing home or hospice.

You know, my job is to fix the computers and maintain servers where I work. If someone was dying in front of me and the lady on the 911 call told me to give them CPR, I'd give them CPR. If I didn't want to help them, I shouldn't have called 911 to begin with. It's not about their job, it's about giving a shit enough to try to save someones life.

 

[Clemenza]

Are they? Or is it hidden on page 7 in fine print? Just because something's printed out, and people signed it, doesn't mean it's ethical. Any policy that is longer than one sheet in length is trying to obfuscate the true nature, and screw the person signing.

Or she or the people responsible for putting her in the home could, you know, read the document.

 

[Rakehellion]

I didn't make up anything. CPR training is standard practice for the most elementary care when dealing with people.

Most people.

It's understood that these people are trained in CPR, which is why they're specifically instructed not to use it.

You're talking out of your ass.

 

[Rakehellion]

You know, my job is to fix the computers and maintain servers where I work. If someone was dying in front of me and the lady on the 911 call told me to give them CPR, I'd give them CPR. If I didn't want to help them, I shouldn't have called 911 to begin with. It's not about their job, it's about giving a shit enough to try to save someones life.

They don't want CPR to be performed on them. Likewise, there are some people where you work who don't want that "upgrade" to Windows 8. Stop meddling.

 

[sourceninja]

They don't want CPR to be performed on them. Likewise, there are some people where you work who don't want that "upgrade" to Windows 8. Stop meddling.

Nowhere in the article I read did it say she had instructed them not to save her life. Just like my employees are getting windows 8 until I have been instructed by my boss to not deploy it... If she had truly asked for no help, then why bother calling 911. Just wait for her to die and stop tying up a line that could save lives.

 

[Genx87]

You know, my job is to fix the computers and maintain servers where I work. If someone was dying in front of me and the lady on the 911 call told me to give them CPR, I'd give them CPR. If I didn't want to help them, I shouldn't have called 911 to begin with. It's not about their job, it's about giving a shit enough to try to save someones life.

You would be surprised how nurses dealing with end of life care may view it differently. These patients go into assisted living knowing what the nurses will and will not do.

They call 911 because that is policy of the assisted living facility. Nurses in these places dont deal with rendering emergency aid as they do with dispensing meds and changing wraps ect. In other words minor care. In all reality, they could do it without nurses. But I suspect state law requires a nurse to dispense medication.

My fiancee has worked in hospice and assisted living facilities. I was also surprised when she told me what little they want out of her when working at assisted living facilities. I will have to ask he how she would handle this situation under the assumption this lady didnt have a DNR. If she had a DNR then all bets are off.

 

[shortylickens]

Usually these types of stories are sensationalist and there is some rationale behind the company policy. In this case I do no understand. CPR training is very simple and takes just a few hours. It's an important tool to buy time for professional responders.

Wonder if the nurse still thinks her $20/hr job is worth more than her conscience.

Little tip, one of the things they DONT tell you during training is that it rarely ever saves lives. Its a last resort and like you said, mostly only helps to buy time for real medical aid.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

You asked for it with your over the top litigations, don't cry now.

 

[Slew Foot]

im going to guess some form of dnr was in place.

 

[DrPizza]

You asked for it with your over the top litigations, don't cry now.

I'm not aware that you can be sued over providing CPR. Not sure what the laws are in your state, but I thought most, if not all states have good samaritan laws. Further, if she's a nurse, afaik - at least in NY, she can lose her nursing license for failure to render the care she's been trained to give.

If the lady had a DNR, then this is what was wanted. If she doesn't, then this is pretty messed up.

 

[highland145]

I'm not aware that you can be sued over providing CPR. Not sure what the laws are in your state, but I thought most, if not all states have good samaritan laws. Further, if she's a nurse, afaik - at least in NY, she can lose her nursing license for failure to render the care she's been trained to give.

If the lady had a DNR, then this is what was wanted. If she doesn't, then this is pretty messed up.

The lawyer at the end of the segment said that assisted living facilities do not have the same burden as a nursing home/hospital. Legally, they just have to call 911.

Still messed up.

 

[mike2fix]

I don't know how much fact was involved but according to the radio this am, it said there are concerns about performing CPR on the elderly due to the brittleness of ribs. They said it is very easy to break multiple ribs and the patient being in terrible pain from the broken bones and then they die anyway.

 

[zinfamous]

I agree that nurses should be trained for CPR--it only makes sense. But with little to no investigation into the matter, I can see why this policy exists.

A lot of people understand CPR to be what they see on TV: a rather harmless and heroic procedure that not only results in the miraculous restoration of life to a beloved one, but is performed without injury or complications to the patient.

In reality, CPR is a last-ditch effort that both rarely works, and tends to result in tremendous injury to the patient--especially the elderly (cracked ribs). I imagine it's common for a family to sue for "inadequate treatment" if their loved one fails to recover from CPR, or if injuries sustained during the procedure result in further complications and even death. I don't want to suggest that tort is way out of control leading to all of our problems with costs and policy...but in some cases it is out of control, and it does lead to policies which might appear unfair or frightening to a public that remains blithely unaware to the realities of these procedures.

 

[velillen]

I don't know how much fact was involved but according to the radio this am, it said there are concerns about performing CPR on the elderly due to the brittleness of ribs. They said it is very easy to break multiple ribs and the patient being in terrible pain from the broken bones and then they die anyway.

It doesnt matter if its a 10 year old kid, an 87 year old lady, or a 24 year old guy if you do CPR you will break ribs. Its almost a given that you will break some. Its just a fact of doing CPR and the motion that they will break. If you think about it it even makes sense.



Either way i am undecided on this story as theres to many unknowns. And unlike many i wont jump to conclusions and side on way or the other till we know more facts. Like was there a DNR, was everyone aware of policies, ect.

It wasnt even a nurse who called either. This story right now is just the media spinning people up when the facts arent there.....just like they do on every news story. Should be a waiting period on non emergency stories such as this for a few hours to gather facts and present the real story and not the story of the minute subject to change bullcrap they put out today

I'm not aware that you can be sued over providing CPR. Not sure what the laws are in your state, but I thought most, if not all states have good samaritan laws. Further, if she's a nurse, afaik - at least in NY, she can lose her nursing license for failure to render the care she's been trained to give.

Only time i know you can be sued is for doing medical procedures you are not trained for. Which for CPR isnt that hard as it can be instructed over the phone. But deliberately doing it incorrectly can also lead to lawsuits (in the case of cpr i dont htink anyone has ever been sued successfully). And as stated some states have must help laws for paramedics, emt's, nurses, ect that they have to help some in trouble.

 

[darkewaffle]

CPR by itself really isn't that effective. I seem to remember hearing a 2% figure in Boy Scouts. Admittedly that's still 2% higher than zero but that lady was going to die anyway.

I'm not aware that you can be sued over providing CPR. Not sure what the laws are in your state, but I thought most, if not all states have good samaritan laws. Further, if she's a nurse, afaik - at least in NY, she can lose her nursing license for failure to render the care she's been trained to give.

I think it depends on the scenario. I seem to remember consent playing a big role; if someone refuses treatment and you do it anyway it can be considered assault even if you do [it to] help them. However in events where someone is unconscious/unable to answer then consent is typically 'implied'. How you handle someone who declines treatment and then becomes unable to consent is probably for the courts to decide.

 

[Thump553]

Having been the caretaker for two elderly parents, every institution or hospital they went to very clearly asked up front as part of the intake process what the patient's stand on this was, and if you didn't want heroic efforts a DNR order was prominently placed on the patient's chart. But I have never ever encountered any insitution where DNR was the universal practice.

I'm wondering if this lady had an existing DNR order she approved and some third party/relative had cold feet or disagreed with her choice and the news media is distorting the actual facts to peddle a sensationalistic story.

 

[DrPizza]

CPR by itself really isn't that effective. I seem to remember hearing a 2% figure in Boy Scouts. Admittedly that's still 2% higher than zero but that lady was going to die anyway.

I gave it a little more thought. What the hell kind of an institution like that doesn't have a portable defibrillator around? Most public places seem to have signs prominently displayed that they have them. At my small high school, we have two. Those things are only a few hundred dollars. Seems like they'd more than pay for themselves in such a care center.

 

[SKORPI0]

DNR is usually a from signed by the patient not to undergo CPR if/when they stop breathing or their heart stops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_not_resuscitate

 

[sourn]

MMM maybe all the patients there don't want CPR performed on them...

Hell that's the only logical thing I can think of lol.

 

[Farang]

Little tip, one of the things they DONT tell you during training is that it rarely ever saves lives. Its a last resort and like you said, mostly only helps to buy time for real medical aid.

It does save lives. I don't know the percentages but the trainers there had been running the ski patrol for years and had plenty of stories to tell

 

[NikolaeVarius]

I'm wondering why didn't they give us more information.

CPR and Defib units are useful only in select circumstances. CPR is just to try and stave off bran cell death for a few minutes after your heart/breathing stops, and is an extremely painful rib breaking process that rarely works.

Defib units are only used in the specific case where you KNOW the person is entering fibrillation.

The article doesn't indicate if those actions would have even worked in the first place.

 

[bradley]

In some states, they ask prospective patients (or an advocate with Power of Attorney) a hypothetical emergency resuscitate vs. do not resuscitate. Sounds totally legit to me, and equally as stupid.