Assisted pullups vs pull-downs

[QueBert]

I bought a perfect pullup and I absolutely cannot do even 1 proper pull-up. I did manage to bang 1 out last week, but I had to hop just a bit to get the momentum going. And even then I struggled to finish it. I Googled the 2 options, and what I'm seeing either sounds like nothing but an opinion "[that method] sucks!" or they give no explanation why they were recommending what they were. Now when I say assisted I'm not talking that lousy ass machine at the my gym. I'm talking with bands like this product.

http://www.lifelineusa.com/products/pullup-revolution-pro.html?oid=1025_49

I've started doing pull-downs, and I am making some progress. When I started, as soon as I stepped off the chair I'd drop like a ton of bricks. Now I can actually hold myself up for a bit when I step off it and can lower down at at a medium pace. But I still don't have the control to make the motion as slow and smooth as it should be. And while I am making visible progress I'm wondering if the product I linked to would be more effective than what I'm doing now. If I was to keep at it 3x a week for 60 days which would method would I benefit from more?

 

[EvilYoda]

I would just buy a medium-strength resistance band and call it it a day. Should be all you need at your weight and you're probably pretty strong by now, just not quite at pull-up strength.

I've never seen nor used the crazy contraption you linked to.

 

[Miramonti]

Pullups are absolutely brutal when not doing them for a while, sort of like stretching, lol.

Painfully, I was barely able to do 2 about 6 weeks ago, now am up to 8. I think that product linked is a gimmick, and you'd be better off like EvilYoda said, with a resistance band, or a set of them. Assisted with a chair is an excellent way to do them as well, whichever is personal preference. Either case, you've got to get the reps up some way or another.

 

[Lamont Burns]

When I was working out at home initially and had set up a pull up bar, what worked for me was the gtg concept.

Grease the groove, which was suggested here. I did that and static holds and negatives.

Slow negatives... made me more sore than anything else I've done I think. Maybe deads on a heavy day... maybe not even that tho.

 

[slashbinslashbash]

Don't despise the chin-up. Get to where you can do 3-4 chin-ups first, then try switching to pull-ups.

Also, try varying your starting point.... and your ending point as well. Ideally you'd start each pullup/chinup from a dead hang and end with your chin above the bar, but it can be quite a bit easier starting from a little higher, and/or ending a little lower. Like, find a chair or box that gets you up to where you're only doing the upper half of a pullup. Or do it so that you're doing the middle half of a pullup... from 1/4 to 3/4; i.e., excluding the very bottom and the very top of the full range of motion. I'm not suggesting these as continued exercises, but as helpers to work your way up to doing the full pullup. There's no shame in starting from a dead hang and pulling yourself up to eye-level with the bar.... say 3/4 of a pullup. Keep doing those, and you'll get to doing a full one before too long.

 

[QueBert]

Don't despise the chin-up. Get to where you can do 3-4 chin-ups first, then try switching to pull-ups.

Also, try varying your starting point.... and your ending point as well. Ideally you'd start each pullup/chinup from a dead hang and end with your chin above the bar, but it can be quite a bit easier starting from a little higher, and/or ending a little lower. Like, find a chair or box that gets you up to where you're only doing the upper half of a pullup. Or do it so that you're doing the middle half of a pullup... from 1/4 to 3/4; i.e., excluding the very bottom and the very top of the full range of motion. I'm not suggesting these as continued exercises, but as helpers to work your way up to doing the full pullup. There's no shame in starting from a dead hang and pulling yourself up to eye-level with the bar.... say 3/4 of a pullup. Keep doing those, and you'll get to doing a full one before too long.

If I could do that I would probably high five everyone around me lol. I can umm pull my feet off the ground, but from a head hang I'm not getting anywhere close to my eyes at bar level. My friend said it's mostly mental, and once I do one, I should be able to do a couple. But getting to that one point is tough. Pull ups are easily the most humbling exercise out there. I took 3 months off from even trying to do one. And thought because I could do 50 push-ups in a row. I'd be able to at least bang out 2 or 3 pull ups.

So I put my bar up, and I just hung there dangling, I wasn't going to give up. I ended up hopping and squirming side to side to get 1. I wasn't ashamed of that, so if I can have good form and get eye level like you say, I'll be thrilled

 

[WraithETC]

I did a set schedule of 5x5 negatives 2-3 times a week until I could do one from standing and then repeated until I could do it lower and lower til dead hang.

Took about 1.5 months from zero pull ups to get to one.

 

[goog40]

Just curious, what's wrong with the assisted pullup machines at the gym? I would think that could help build you up to an unassisted pullup faster than what you're doing right now.

 

[episodic]

Just use a bench under the pull up bar and put one foot on it and assist yourself 'just enough' to make it possible. Use your one leg as a lever to get up and down. Just don't cheat and make it too easy. Also google 'dive bomber' pushups to work some of the muscles with pull-ups. I could do no pull ups in October last year. I just got where I can do a reverse ladder of 7 (rest) 5 (rest) 2 (rest). I feel like a boss now

 

[slashbinslashbash]

If I could do that I would probably high five everyone around me lol.

So find something to stand on so that you start somewhere higher than a dead hang, your arms are already bent. Then pull yourself up until your eyes are level. You gotta start somewhere, and doing even 1/2 or 1/4 of a pullup will help you build strength to do a full one.

I don't know about the other techniques/equipment you mentioned, but I know for a fact that just trying to do partial pullups/chinups will get you there eventually, and actually faster than you might have thought possible.

 

[Miramonti]

I wonder how fast this would work...strap a milk jug filled with sand, use a chair or bench to put your chin to the bar, and do lots of negative rep pullups as slow as possible.

Anyhow, pullups involve the lats, chest, and biceps, so strengthening them with other exercises will also help you achieve your pullup goals.

 

[tedrodai]

Now when I say assisted I'm not talking that lousy ass machine at the my gym

Wrong attitude my friend. There's absolutely nothing "lousy ass" about that machine, if it's what I'm thinking about. (something like this http://www.amazon.com/Maximus-Fitnes...970673&sr=8-1_) You've got the right idea of course. Since you can't lift your bodyweigth through a pullup, you are trying to find a way to decrease the load on your lats/biceps.....so exactly what is wrong with that machine? It's doing the same thing you're considering with resistance bands, only the machine allows you more control over the amount of resistance. Of course, for home work, here are some bodyweight progressions:

1) inverted rows - elevate your feet to increase the difficulty to an appropriate level (and make sure you squeeze your shoulders together at the top to make sure you work the lats)
2) chinup negative reps til you can do a few chin ups
3) pullup negatives til you can do several pull ups
4) pullups using grease the groove! http://www.notyouraveragefitnesstip...ove-how-to-increase-pushups-increase-pull-ups

I recommend skipping the bands, unless you just really like doing work with bands. They'll become unused pretty quick. And don't laugh at inverted rows...they get the job done as long as you're feeling worked. If you can bang out sets of 8+reps easily (and properly, making sure to involve the lats), skip them. It sounds like you're very close to good negative reps, but you definitely want to do those smoothly and under control.

 

[destrekor]

Wrong attitude my friend. There's absolutely nothing "lousy ass" about that machine, if it's what I'm thinking about. (something like this http://www.amazon.com/Maximus-Fitnes...970673&sr=8-1_) You've got the right idea of course. Since you can't lift your bodyweigth through a pullup, you are trying to find a way to decrease the load on your lats/biceps.....so exactly what is wrong with that machine? It's doing the same thing you're considering with resistance bands, only the machine allows you more control over the amount of resistance. Of course, for home work, here are some bodyweight progressions:

1) inverted rows - elevate your feet to increase the difficulty to an appropriate level (and make sure you squeeze your shoulders together at the top to make sure you work the lats)
2) chinup negative reps til you can do a few chin ups
3) pullup negatives til you can do several pull ups
4) pullups using grease the groove! http://www.notyouraveragefitnesstip...ove-how-to-increase-pushups-increase-pull-ups

I recommend skipping the bands, unless you just really like doing work with bands. They'll become unused pretty quick. And don't laugh at inverted rows...they get the job done as long as you're feeling worked. If you can bang out sets of 8+reps easily (and properly, making sure to involve the lats), skip them. It sounds like you're very close to good negative reps, but you definitely want to do those smoothly and under control.

You have to be careful with machines though. Some of them will severely restrict free movement, and it is critical you allow every muscle to get a solid feel for the proper motion; with pullups, if you don't do them right, you aren't getting nearly as much out of them. Just about every core and back muscle can be brought into play with proper pullups, as it takes a fair bit of concentration and effort to ensure each muscle is acting as a stabilizer.
A solid pullup with be one where our entire body is completely still - save for the controlled up and down motion.

Practice with all of that - and rock some pullups and behind-the-head tricep extensions (if you have any kind of free-weights). Try and minimize all swing. What will help with that is also busting out some Russian Twist "crunches" (with weight too, if available) and other all-around abdominal exercises. Your core is heavily involved with stability for pullups and will get a decent exercise if kept engaged through each repetition.

I just recently got a door-gym myself (the Perfect Multi-Gym - didn't want to use any permanent hardware - and other pullup bars didn't fit my doorway), and also got some Harbinger ab-straps for elevated abdominal exercises. I've done a few smoke sessions and damn, I'm loving it. But I've been decent with pullups for awhile, so my focus is building mass and improving all the muscle groups involved.

Definitely a humbling "self-weight" exercise for sure! I can usually get about 10 good ones (might not be perfect dead-hang starts though, close regardless) in a set, and I usually do a few sets of different grips (along with some use of the Perfect Pushup handles). On repeated sets, muscle failure usually hits me at 6 or so. I usually just keep going through multiple exercises and grips until absolute muscle failure - either a set ends at 3 pullups or I can't get get a good one after I build momentum - usually dead-hang is impossible even half-way at that point too.

I have been thinking of something different, however: a weighted vest.


That link in the OP also led me to pushup resistance straps. I think I want to get those - could be great to get more out of regular pushups.

 

[tedrodai]

You have to be careful with machines though. Some of them will severely restrict free movement, and it is critical you allow every muscle to get a solid feel for the proper motion; with pullups, if you don't do them right, you aren't getting nearly as much out of them. Just about every core and back muscle can be brought into play with proper pullups, as it takes a fair bit of concentration and effort to ensure each muscle is acting as a stabilizer.
A solid pullup with be one where our entire body is completely still - save for the controlled up and down motion.

At least for the machines I've seen and used in the past, you're correct to an extent, in that you need to be careful to do the motion correctly, but you're blowing it out of proportion. You should be careful about not letting your body lean forward or backward but rather move smoothly along the verticle plane. That can be an issue with any sort of assisted pull up if the person doesn't know how to do them properly. However, IMO the machine doesn't severly restrict free movement to the point you should be worried about it. Obviously with your knees on a pad, you're not dealing with your legs swinging back and forth, but without getting your major muscles (lats/biceps) strong enough to handle even 1 pullup, ....well frankly you're never going to be dealing with those stabilizers during a pullup...because you aren't doing any pullups.

Once you graduate to being able to do an pullup or two, you stop using the machine, and any stabilizing muscles that need to catch up will catch up before you progress much further.

I used that type of machine to work towards my 1st pullup several years back, and the transition to un-assisted was pretty seemless. The motion on the machine is as close to natural as you can get with an assisted pullup. If I were at that point today, I'd probably use purely bodyweight progressions (which will work just fine), but only because I've cut out my dependency on the gym. If you have access to the equipment, it'll work just fine.

 

[Lounatik]

Just use a bench under the pull up bar and put one foot on it and assist yourself 'just enough' to make it possible. Use your one leg as a lever to get up and down. Just don't cheat and make it too easy. Also google 'dive bomber' pushups to work some of the muscles with pull-ups. I could do no pull ups in October last year. I just got where I can do a reverse ladder of 7 (rest) 5 (rest) 2 (rest). I feel like a boss now

This. Rest one leg on a chair and start doing the pullups. If you take about 20% of the weight off, it is easier. Plus, resting a leg on a chair gives you very good form instead of the squirmy kicking and flailing all over the place. Use your leg to assist you and as you start feeling friskier, just let the leg rest on the chair. As long as you are building strength, you will see improvements.


Peace


Lounatik

 

[QueBert]

I can now do 2 Pull Ups with pretty decent form, I was excited when I did my 1st clean one. I was even more excited when I recently read some guides online and watched a few Youtube videos and found out that Pull Ups are harder to do than Chin Ups. Oddly enough I cannot do a single Chin Up, maybe that's because I've only been doing negative Pull Ups? I don't know, but it figures me not paying attention resulted in a 50/50 choice where I picked the harder one lol.

It might be unrealistic, but I've set a goal of being able to do 8 by the end of the summer.

 

[z1ggy]

This. Rest one leg on a chair and start doing the pullups. If you take about 20% of the weight off, it is easier. Plus, resting a leg on a chair gives you very good form instead of the squirmy kicking and flailing all over the place. Use your leg to assist you and as you start feeling friskier, just let the leg rest on the chair. As long as you are building strength, you will see improvements.


Peace


Lounatik

This. I started not being able to really do pull ups, so first I used bands wrapped around the bar and simulated the pull up ( basically doing a lat pull-down). Did this until I could do about 12-15 with my heaviest band. Then I switched to putting the chair in front of me with both feet on there. Again same thing. Now after a while of this, I can do about 6-8 totally unassisted chin ups and probably 10-12 unassisted pull ups. I usually do like 6 sets though, so by set 3 I need the chair again.

 

[Xcobra]

Pull ups are one of the most difficult exercises, imo. I remember when I could barely do one. Now I can do 10 with decent form on the first set. Even after it, it drains me pretty good and is difficult for me to do 10 after the second set. I found that having a relatively strong chest also helps for some reason. Or maybe I am just doing them incorrectly. Just keep at it. You can also do back exercises with dumbells/barbell. Might help a bit.