Asus DirectCUII HD7870 for ~$228 with Sleeping Dogs - Superbiiz

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
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Asus AMD Radeon HD 7870 2GB GDDR5 DVI/HDMI/2Mini DisplayPort PCI-Express Video Card - HD7870-DC2-2GD5

$253.49
- $5 coupon code: NOFUMBLE5 (Expires September 17, 2012)
- $20 Mail in Rebate, expires September 30, 2012 (Apply at Checkout)
+ $49.99 Free game coupon for Sleeping Dogs
===============
$228.49 Free shipping

Performance is about 9% slower at 1080P against a $290-300 GTX660Ti




This card is very quiet.



As pointed out by very detail oriented and knowledgeable members on our forum, this card is Mfr Part Number: HD7870-DC2-2GD5 instead of ASUS HD7870-DC2-2GD5-V2

Specifications
Mfr Part Number: HD7870-DC2-2GD5
Chipset: AMD Radeon HD 7870
Engine Clock: 1010 MHz
Video Memory: 2GB GDDR5
Memory Clock: 4840 MHz (1210 MHz GDDR5)
Memory Interface: 32-bit
Bus: PCI-Express 3.0
RAMDAC: 400 MHz
Max. Resolution: 2560 x 1600
Connectors: DVI, HDMI, 2x Mini DisplayPort
Thermal: Fansink (Dual Fans)
Microsoft Windows 7
AMD CrossFireX Technology
AMD Eyefinity Technology
AMD HD3D Technology
HDCP - High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection
Microsoft DirectX 11
 
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jlin101

Senior member
Feb 12, 2005
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tempting...that is a nice cooler (I'm an happy owner of a GTX 670 DCII Top). Would've taken a bite, except for the impending release of GTX 660 (rumored to be priced at $230) that is expected to outrun 7870 (as 670 did to 7970, and 660 Ti did to 7950) thereby driving 7870's price downward further. Just last week NE had HIS IceQ 7870 (another excellent design) for $220 (free game included). It's OOS currently, but there's now a $20 rebate (good till 9/30). If you're lucky, you may be able to snatch one for $200 AR.
 
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RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Sorry guys I don't know what happened to the link (I must have screwed it up).

Hopefully it works now. The deal should come in at $223.50 or so.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
tempting...that is a nice cooler (I'm an happy owner of a GTX 670 DCII Top). Would've taken a bite, except for the impending release of GTX 660 (rumored to be priced at $230) that is expected to outrun 7870 (as 670 did to 7970, and 660 Ti did to 7950) thereby driving 7870's price downward further.

You must have outdated information. 3-4 months ago it was true, since then AMD updated drivers several times.

GTX660 is supposed to slot in-between 7850 and 7870 in price and performance.

Also, HD7970 ~ 670 and 800mhz 7950 ~ 660Ti and after-market 7950s are actually faster out of the box than a 660Ti is. Not sure where you are getting your information from (must be old reviews/drivers, especially for the 7970 vs. 670 comparison).

670 hasn't been faster than a 7970 since at least June
http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/grafikkarten/2012/test-amd-radeon-hd-7950-mit-925-mhz/3/
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Point_Of_View/GeForce_GTX_680_TGT_Ultra_4_GB/28.html
 
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jlin101

Senior member
Feb 12, 2005
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I didn't say that a 670/660ti would consistently beat out a 7970/7950 respectively, nor should it given the price difference. What is undeniable is that the arrival of 680/670/660ti has caused the 7900/7800 prices to take not one but 3 successive tumbles. Given there's no official review of 660 yet, the only data available is from TweakTown, which indicate that a 660 can perform at the same level of 7870, with a rumored street price of $230. So it's expected that the price of 7870 may dip down into the low 200's, even though the current official price is $250. BTW, AMD is not the only manufacturer that can update its drivers; if it took AMD 3-4 months to update/optimize its drivers so its cards can catch up with the competition, who's to say that nVidia couldn't do the same in a few months? Without GTX 600's, people would be paying $350 for a 7870.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
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My bad, I agree with your point that 7850/7870/7950 may drop more. Some of that has to do with GTX600 series, but some of that has to do with AMD's HD7000 generation being half way through the GPU life-cycle and 28nm wafer costs/yields have improved since it's been 6 months from launch, allowing AMD to drop prices while retaining their profit margins. HD7870 and 7950 cards started dropping months before GTX660Ti/660/650 were even on the map.

Here is HD7870 for $290 on July 5 and then $270 around July 22nd. These price drops started 2 months before 660 is about to land on September 12th.

The exact same thing with HD7950, prices dropping from $450-500 to $380 in June and then to $320-340 in July. Again these price drops occurred way before GTX660Ti launched on August 16th. Thus, it can hardly be said that if it wasn't for GTX660, we'd still be paying $350 for the 7870. That's definitely not true.

HD8000 series can't be too far out and generally we see the current generation start dropping in price over time the closer we get to a new generation. It's possible that 7850/7870 may drop another $10-20 from today's levels once 660 launches. Then again you expect GPUs to continue dropping as time goes on and the generation becomes 'old'. Regardless, if you bought an HD7850 for $250 in March 2012, you would have paid $20 more than a 660 but ended up having more or less similar performance and enjoyed the card for 6 months! So was it worth the wait ~7 months for the 660? Definitely not, which is why GTX650/660/660Ti will not be impressive no matter what. If a competitor is late, they have to offer better price/performance or better performance or some amazing new features over the competition. GTX460/470/480 did that, GTX650/660/660Ti didn't do do that. If we agree that waiting 5-7 months late is not a big deal, then the same can be said for waiting 5-7 months for HD8750/8770. Being late in GPUs is a pretty big deal in the world of technology since GPU generations turn over so quickly. GTX650/660/660Ti are "half a generation late", which is the worst showing from NV I can remember since Fermi (but with Fermi they brought more features, better overclocking and faster performance, so most of us didn't mind them being 6 months late that generation).
 
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jlin101

Senior member
Feb 12, 2005
816
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My bad, I agree with your point that 7850/7870/7950 may drop more. Some of that has to do with GTX600 series, but some of that has to do with AMD's HD7000 generation being half way through the GPU life-cycle and 28nm wafer costs/yields have improved since it's been 6 months from launch, allowing AMD to drop prices while retaining their profit margins. HD7870 and 7950 cards started dropping months before GTX660Ti/660/650 were even on the map.

Here is HD7870 for $290 on July 5 and then $270 around July 22nd. These price drops started 2 months before 660 is about to land on September 12th.

The exact same thing with HD7950, prices dropping from $450-500 to $380 in June and then to $320-340 in July. Again these price drops occurred way before GTX660Ti launched on August 16th. Thus, it can hardly be said that if it wasn't for GTX660, we'd still be paying $350 for the 7870. That's definitely not true.

HD8000 series can't be too far out and generally we see the current generation start dropping in price over time the closer we get to a new generation. It's possible that 7850/7870 may drop another $10-20 from today's levels once 660 launches. Then again you expect GPUs to continue dropping as time goes on and the generation becomes 'old'. Regardless, if you bought an HD7850 for $250 in March 2012, you would have paid $20 more than a 660 but ended up having more or less similar performance and enjoyed the card for 6 months! So was it worth the wait ~7 months for the 660? Definitely not, which is why GTX650/660/660Ti will not be impressive no matter what. If a competitor is late, they have to offer better price/performance or better performance or some amazing new features over the competition. GTX460/470/480 did that, GTX650/660/660Ti didn't do do that. If we agree that waiting 5-7 months late is not a big deal, then the same can be said for waiting 5-7 months for HD8750/8770. Being late in GPUs is a pretty big deal in the world of technology since GPU generations turn over so quickly. GTX650/660/660Ti are "half a generation late", which is the worst showing from NV I can remember since Fermi (but with Fermi they brought more features, better overclocking and faster performance, so most of us didn't mind them being 6 months late that generation).

IMO, the one-after-another price drops for 7900/7800 in the last 3 months were probably bigger and sooner than AMD had hoped for. The price drop for 7970 and the release of GHz edition were precipitated in part by 680 but mostly by 670 (as 680 was in short supply initially). As 7970 fell in price, 7950 also had to come down 1 or 2 notches. Then 7870/7850 dropped in anticipation of 660 Ti. The reason I said these steep drops had more to do with competition than maturing production is that it took 6950 more than 2 years to go from $300 to $200 (a 33% drop), where as the 7900/7800 took the same tumble in less than 6 months. Nvidia may be late to the party, but they took the time to do it right from the get go this time (compared to the power-hungry Fermi), forcing AMD to rely on price slashing in order to stay competitive (the same way AMD had to undersell its CPU's in order to run with Intel). Speaking of being behind schedule, where is AMD's dual-GPU card? Having owned 6870/6950/7850/7950, I think AMD makes great products, but it might have aimed a little too low this time around, as far as price/performance is concerned. I am just happy we have so many good cards to choose from. Gotta love competition!
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
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The reason I said these steep drops had more to do with competition than maturing production is that it took 6950 more than 2 years to go from $300 to $200 (a 33% drop), where as the 7900/7800 took the same tumble in less than 6 months.

6950 launched Dec 22, 2010 and I bought mine for $230 on February 21, 2011. So it took 3 months to drop from $299 to $230 and then was widely available for $230-250 since that point.

Nvidia may be late to the party, but they took the time to do it right from the get go this time (compared to the power-hungry Fermi), forcing AMD to rely on price slashing in order to stay competitive (the same way AMD had to undersell its CPU's in order to run with Intel).

That's not how I look at it. The way I look at it is AMD launched way earlier and reaped higher profits from the beginning, when NV launched their cards, AMD simply responded with price drops to stay competitive. That's not AMD being desperate but exactly AMD's strategy from the very beginning of HD7000 series. They knew exactly that this would happen and most of us knew it too. AMD is not underselling anything, especially looking at their price history. For example, in the past AMD sold HD4850 for $199 and 4870 for $299, then 4890 for $269, then 5850 for $269, 5870 for $369 and 6950 for $299. Now they could have priced 7950 for $299 like thie did for 6950 or 4870 but instead they knew NV was late and took full advantage of the opportunity and priced it at $449. That's smart, that's called first mover advantage.

They will do exactly the same thing with HD8000 series, watch. They'll price it high, beat GTX700 series to market, and then just lower prices when GTX700 series launches. That's their exact strategy now.

Speaking of being behind schedule, where is AMD's dual-GPU card? Having owned 6870/6950/7850/7950, I think AMD makes great products, but it might have aimed a little too low this time around, as far as price/performance is concerned.

Who cares about $1k GPUs? That's 0.01% of the market. The bread and butter is $100-$250 segment and NV was MIA for 6-8 months now.

Also, not sure at all what you mean by AMD aimed too low this time as far as price/performance is concerned because outside of the small 1 quarter window when 670/680 were worth buying (end of March to June 22nd), AMD has offered better price/performance for the majority of this year. So I really am not sure what you mean at all.

HD7750/7770 = no competition since February 2012
HD7850 = no competition since March 2012
HD7870 = 10% slower than GTX660Ti for 35-40% less
HD7950 aftermarket > GTX660Ti aftermarket
HD7950 OC = 670 OC for $70-80 less
HD7970 OC > GTX680 OC for $50-70 less

So not sure at all where you are seeing AMD offering "low" price/performance. They are winning every price segment on the market on the desktop and have been from January to March and from June until now. As far as 7750/7770/7850/7870 cards are concerned, AMD went completely uncontested for price/performance in those $100-$349 price segments until GTX660Ti launched on August 18th. So you are saying AMD aimed too low this round? How about saying NV missed more half of this generation......

The only card NV had worth buying was GTX670 (and GTX680 Lightning for people wanting the best single-GPU on air + volt-mod). Other than that NV got totally crushed this round because they didn't show up for 6+ months in the $100-$299 price segment!
 
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rekd0514

Member
Aug 28, 2009
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If only AMD had clocked them a little higher from the factory. We wouldn't have as many people chiming in saying the GTX 670 beats XXX by so much. When you put overclocking in the value equation AMD is winning basically everything right now. Like Russian says ^^^.

Too many people looked at the out of the box numbers and just hit buy now on the 670.
 

Termie

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
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[snip]

That's not how I look at it. The way I look at it is AMD launched way earlier and repeated higher profits from the beginning, when NV launched their cards, AMD simply responded with price drops to stay competitive. That's not AMD being desperate but exactly AMD's strategy from the very beginning of HD7000 series. They knew exactly that this would happen and most of us knew it too. AMD is not underselling anything. For example, in the past AMD sold HD4850 for $199 and 4870 for $299, then 4890 for $269, then 5850 for $269, 5870 for $369 and 6950 for $299. Now they could have priced 7950 for $299 like thie did for 6950 or 4870 but instead they knew NV was late and took full advantage of the opportunity and priced it at $449. That's smart, that's called first mover advantage.

[snip]

The only card NV had worth buying was GTX670 (and GTX680 Lightning for people wanting the best single-GPU on air + volt-mod). Other than that NV got totally crushed this round because they didn't show up for 6+ months in the $100-$299 price segment!

As much as I usually respect your opinions RS, I'm going to call you out here. You've been repeating these lines in every post, and frankly, I don't believe you mean it. Why?

(a) Nobody, and I mean nobody, thought the HD7950 was worth $450 at any point, regardless of what nVidia cards were available. That wasn't "first mover advantage", that was foolishness.
(b) Nvidia sold huge numbers of 600 series cards at launch prices, and people were very happy buying them. The performance was solidly above the AMD offerings at the same price level. nVidia did not get crushed.
(c) You yourself took nearly 6 months to buy a 7970, and whether you like to admit it or not, it's because you knew, just as everyone else did, that the 7970 launch price was a ripoff. I'm guessing you paid about $450 for your card. In this case I think your actions speak louder than your words. It's not like your 6950 suddenly got slower in June or whenever you purchased that 7970.

Now, I will admit that AMD did a good job with their drivers to improve performance this summer, but if anyone asked about purchasing a card before the 12.7 performance drivers came out in the hopes that performance would improve, any enthusiast worth his salt should have advised that person that it was foolhardy.

Here are just a few examples where you were less than enthusiastic about the 7970 before you bought one:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=33398837&postcount=15

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=33239119&postcount=4

And now, the one that really seals the deal:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=33286025&postcount=21

Look, we all know that the 7950/7970, along with the 7870 that is the subject of this thread, are now quite competitive, but I don't think it's helpful to rewrite history. nVidia came out with very good cards and shocked AMD into adjusting its prices. Period.
 
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jlin101

Senior member
Feb 12, 2005
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took the words right out of my mouth. For this round, many would agree that AMD took advantage of nvidia's tardiness to the party and gouged the consumers (considering nvidia's more-reasonable initial pricing of the 600 series), and now have to reposition the pricing at a more realistic level. Funny thing is, there are also people of thought nvidia charged too much for the 680/670's, not because the performance was not there, but because their code name GK106 suggested that this was only the middle-grade chip instead of the top end.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
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Termie, I didn't say NV got crushed overall. I didn't say a word on GTX670/680/690 cards and I even said they are still excellent, just all 3 are overpriced. I said NV got crushed in the $100-299 price segment for 28nm desktop generation. $100-299, NV didn't show up until August -September timeframe. HD7750/7770/7850 were all for sale at those prices for more than half a year.

Also, I don't disagree at all that I was unhappy with HD7950/7970 pricing at launch. If you look at how this generation has gone so far, NV only had a major lead for 1 quarter (end of March to end of June). Jan-March, while HD7950/7970 were overpriced, they still offered way better price/performance than GTX580 did. I was also critical of not moving the price/performance on a technology curve from AMD relative to mid-range HD6950 cards and thought HD7870 at $349 was overpriced. Sure, all of that is true. Still, that changes nothing about NV not showing up in the $100-299 mid-range price segment for 6-8 months. And then after Catalyst 12.7 drivers, HD7970/7970GE regained the performance lead from 670/680 cards. So really, NV has been offering less price/performance from $100-$500 price range since June as well, excepting GTX690. But most importantly, in the $100-299 price segment they completely got dominated in this round since they didn't offer any competition to HD7750/7770/7850 until now. They had to use their 40nm Fermi cards to compete for more than half a year! Launching GTX650/660/660Ti now is too late. None of those cards offer anything in price/performance over HD7850/7870/7950. All NV did is match what the competition offers. That's not moving the bar.

Even now in your hot deal, HD7870 is going for $200. So what's the point of a GTX660 card? No point for it.

(c) You yourself took nearly 6 months to buy a 7970, and whether you like to admit it or not, it's because you knew, just as everyone else did, that the 7970 launch price was a ripoff. I'm guessing you paid about $450 for your card. In this case I think your actions speak louder than your words. It's not like your 6950 suddenly got slower in June or whenever you purchased that 7970.

There are 2 main reasons I waited:

1) I knew AMD would have to drop prices when GTX670/680 launched.
2) My 6950 built up enough bitcoins to buy the 7970 for free. Once both of those events occurred, I got the 7970.

If you remember, I pretty much only recommended GTX670/680 cards from the time they launched until Cats 12.7 and price drops on NV cards. However, I didn't recommend a single 40nm Fermi card in the $100-$350 price range all this time, unless I found a very large sale or the person insisted they wanted an NV card. That's because NV had nothing worth buying since January 2012 except for GTX670/680 cards for 1 quarter. All those GTX560/560Ti/570/580 cards were a total waste of $ against HD6870 or HD7850 OC. So what did NV do? It made gamers wait until August 16th and September 13th to finally launch GTX660/660Ti cards. This generation is nearly over. 1-2 quarters and we are on HD8000/GTX700 series. NV decides to show up when we are half way past the 1st 28nm generation cycle. I know why they did it because they re-allocated the chips to the mobile segments.

Look, we all know that the 7950/7970, along with the 7870 that is the subject of this thread, are now quite competitive, but I don't think it's helpful to rewrite history. nVidia came out with very good cards and shocked AMD into adjusting its prices. Period.

Sorry, I don't agree. AMD could have come out with $299 7950 and $369 7970 but instead they went back to original ATI pricing strategy and used the first mover advantage in order to execute this new pricing strategy. AMD wasn't shocked at all about GTX670/680's performance or prices. They for sure expected to drop prices over time because they themselves admitted they launched the product with lower clock speeds on purpose to be able to launch first and not wait longer. AMD's old strategy was to compete on price/performance for the entire generation. AMD's new GPU strategy (if they are successful with its execution) is:

(1) launch first with your new generation, which allows you to dictate high prices;
(2) by launching first, help to secure higher profit margins due higher pricing;
(3) as competition brings out new cards, lower prices to offer price/performance which allows you to still retain certain aspects of the old strategy.

First mover advantage strategy to get as high cash flows as possible in a period of little competition, then when the competitor shows up, revert to the old price/performance strategy if necessary. Of course this may not work at all if NV launches closely to AMD or has much faster products. It's obvious what AMD is doing from a strategic point of view. $449 7950 and $549 7970 were not a coincidence. You think AMD didn't expect to drop prices? Of course they did. If they wanted to follow the old plan, it would have been $269-299 for the 7950 and $369 for the 7970. Look at now, AMD sells 7950 for $299 and HD7970 for $420. So their strategy worked exactly as they intended. They company that didn't deliver enough this round was NV because normally NV has a 10-15% performance lead forcing AMD to stay at the $370 price level.

Now we as consumers got a generally overpriced generation: AMD raised prices to ATI levels and NV couldn't move the performance by more than 35% with GK104. What I am saying is the AMD's initial prices, followed by subsequent price drops isn't a surprise. I am expecting this exact first mover advantage + price/performance execution with HD8000 series - launch early with high prices to secure high profit margins, adjust to price/performance only when necessary (i.e., "Attack new markets with one hand while protecting existing businesses with the other."). This is the whole point why AMD didn't wait 1-2 quarters for yields to improve on HD7000 series. They could have waited 2 quarters and launched the HD7970 GE for $449 and HD7950 B for $299, but then wouldn't have sold any 7950/7970 cards for 2 quarters. Instead, they went in and took full advantage of early adopters in technology. People who want high-end GPUs will pay $400-500 and AMD knows it. The only surprising part to me is that you are surprised that AMD had to lower prices so soon because we discussed this on our forum the minute 7950/7970 series launched.

Why do you think Rory came in and got rid of the core AMD GPU management team? He realized the price/performance strategy hasn't worked since HD2900 series and the division was bleeding $. The first thing he did was change prices from the get go and told them to launch earlier. You can imagine some people probably didn't agree.

I know you were really upset that AMD raised prices and ditched your 5850s. AMD tried for years and years to lure in NV customers with price/performance and that didn't work. So you know what, they did what any business would do, forget them and make more $ on existing customer base, something NV has been doing for years and years with high prices every new generation. It's just you got used to AMD being the "budget" brand or a brand that will sell you an HD4870 for $299 at launch vs. $399 GTX260 or HD5850 for $269. Sorry, but that hasn't worked for 3 years. You bought a 670 for $400, so why can't AMD sell cards for $400? ATi did. None of us likes this as a consumer but it had to be done unless you want to see AMD going bankrupt.
 
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Termie

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
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www.techbuyersguru.com
RussianSensation - I appreciate your candor. You are right that nVidia has been entirely absent not just from $100-$299, but essentially from $0-$299, and this is something I've been on the record about as well. I haven't recommended an nVidia card in that price range for a very long time, and I do not recommend the 660Ti. But if we were to look at this honestly, we'd have to agree that AMD wasn't really present in the $150-$300 price range until nVidia pushed its cards down into it, and only the 6870 allowed AMD to hold on by a thread in the <$150 category. The 7850 - selling for ~$250 at launch - was a non-starter IMO, and of course the 7870, which is now a steal, was in the stratosphere. And I'm sure we all remember the $160 HD7770 - what a joke that was, although it's now a bargain at ~$100. In my opinion, had AMD priced its cards lower from the start, it would have truly capitalized on its "first mover advantage" by denying nVidia future customers. I don't believe it succeeded due to its high prices, as many potential buyers waited in the wings to see how nVidia would counter, and then went that route in large numbers.

As the reviewers on Anandtech often note, there are no bad products, just bad prices, and AMD had some pretty darn bad prices for quite a while. Now they have the best prices all the way up to $320, and arguably higher. It is again a good time to be in the market for a mid-range graphics card. Once the HD7850 drops to $150 (currently at $190AR), AMD will have absolutely clinched the market.

Now, as for the 660 - if it can come in at $230 or below, it will be a legitimate alternative to the 7870, in large part due to the lower power consumption (likely 7850 levels) and smaller overall size. I'd love a 7870 but can't fit one in my HTPC case, for instance. So count me among those who are patiently waiting for nVidia to make its next move.
 
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RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
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Termie,

In theory what you are saying could have worked - launch earlier at amazing prices. Reality is it didn't work: HD5850/5870 series launched at $269/$369 and offered astonishingly good value, followed by HD5770 at $179 I believe. AMD launched HD5000 series 6 months before NV stepped food and GTX460 didn't even come out till summer of 2010, so far far behind HD5850.

This did not work. If you followed up on market share, NV ended up that 2 year generation (HD5800/6900) with 62-63% desktop discrete market share!! In other words, NV users could care less about price/performance of AMD cards. AMD tried for 3 full generations to offer price/performance and they are not switching, period.

So what you are saying that AMD should have captured more customers is not that simple. Let's say AMD could have sold 20 HD7950 cards at $299 (let's say AMD sells that chip to AIBs for $60 then). That's $1,200 in revenue for AMD.

Let's say AMD sells 10 HD7950 cards at $449 (let's say AMD sells that chip to AIBs for $120 now) = $1,200 in revenue.

This is an oversimplified example on my part but unless we have AMD's actual numbers, you cannot say it would have been better to continue using their price/performance strategy.

There are serious long-term consequences to have continued doing so:

1) AMD's GPU division lost $ in each of 4800/5800/6900 generations. So we know for sure that this strategy did not work;

2) AMD has gained market share last quarter despite what you considered to be high prices. So we know that even at $130/$250/$350, HD7770/HD7850/7870 still sold well. You say HD7850 was a non-starter for $250, yes but only if you had an HD5850/6950. If you were a new customer, HD7850 was the best budget gaming card for 6 months. Nothing even came close, not 560Ti 448, not 570, not 580. It looks expensive because we got a bargain with 5850/6950.

3) Brand / market perception - Many people now consider AMD 2nd tier brand, and expect it to cost less than NV. This was not the case for ATI. There is long-term brand value erosion. You cannot be considered a premium brand and sell your products for 20-40% less ($299 4870, $269 4890, $269 5850), etc.

I am telling you right now, as much as I would love $299 HD8950 and $369 HD8970, unless GTX780 is 20-30% faster, we are not getting it. If you go back to ATI days, they priced their cards are $399, $499, $549 and $599.

Frankly, AMD responded by dropping prices on their cards and offering better price/performance for a while now, as was the case in the past. NV hasn't moved an inch on 670/680/690 pricing. Early adopters got top of the line performance 2-3 months before 680 launched so the early adopter premium is justified for them. Currently, NV isn't even on the map for price/performance. They are so far out of the map, they need $50 price drops everywhere and yet you aren't complaining about that. GTX660Ti for $300 is a joke, GTX680 for $500 is a joke. GTX670 is barely passable at $370-400, but only if you don't want to overclock a 7970. If you consider overclocking, 7970 wins without even trying.

The current price/performance puts AMD ahead at every price level:
http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/grafikkarten/2012/test-amd-radeon-hd-7950-mit-925-mhz/3/

What has NV done to change this since June? Nothing, but you are not claiming they are ripping gamers off.....?

Once this generation passes, consumers will have to get used to $400-550 GPU prices, or that's what AMD's new management team is counting on. But this also means flawless execution of launching way ahead of NV and not falling too far in performance. We'll see how they do since GTX780 may be a beast

My gut feeling is next round AMD will be doing everything to maintain these launch prices:

HD8850 for $249
HD8870 for $349
HD8950 for $449
HD8970 for $549

This actually works well for NV since they moved up GTX460 768/1GB mid-range from $199/229 to $299 with GTX660Ti. Did you notice that? Yup, slowly but surely both companies are moving up the price brackets for videocards!

The old days of $270 AMD HDxx50 series card that could overclock to a $500 level of performance at launch are done. It's unsustainable. If you won't buy an AMD card at the same price as an NV card, well that's AMD's loss. However, they already took losing you into account when they shifted to the Predator/First mover advantage pricing model strategy.

Remember $600 8800GTX, $830 8800GTX Ultra, GTX280 for $649, GTX260 for $499? If you want the latest tech, you gotta pay. I don't like it. You don't like it. We both agree it's expensive to spend so much $ on console ports. Thing is, AMD has no other choice because for 3 generations in a row they lost $$.
 
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Termie

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
7,949
48
91
www.techbuyersguru.com
Termie,

In theory what you are saying could have worked - launch earlier at amazing prices. Reality is it didn't work: HD5850/5870 series launched at $269/$369 and offered astonishingly good value, followed by HD5770 at $179 I believe. AMD launched HD5000 series 6 months before NV stepped food and GTX460 didn't even come out till summer of 2010, so far far behind HD5850.

This did not work. If you followed up on market share, NV ended up that 2 year generation (HD5800/6900) with 62-63% desktop discrete market share!! In other words, NV users could care less about price/performance of AMD cards. AMD tried for 3 full generations to offer price/performance and they are not switching, period.

[snip]

The current price/performance puts AMD ahead at every price level:
http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/grafikkarten/2012/test-amd-radeon-hd-7950-mit-925-mhz/3/

What has NV done to change this since June? Nothing, but you are not claiming they are ripping gamers off.....?

[snip]


As always, you are worthy of a virtual conversation, RS. Excellent point about historical market share. This round did seem to go slightly better for AMD, but we'll have to look at it again next year to see whether the 660/670/680 caught up, just as the 460/560 did in the past.

And by the way, I agree with you much more than you've realized...I said so right up front:

RussianSensation - I appreciate your candor. You are right that nVidia has been entirely absent not just from $100-$299, but essentially from $0-$299, and this is something I've been on the record about as well. I haven't recommended an nVidia card in that price range for a very long time, and I do not recommend the 660Ti.

Would you like me to use the word "ripoff" to describe the nVidia cards under $300? I think it's pretty clear where I stand.

The only place I differ with you is on the relative value of the 670/680 versus the 7970. I put a high priority on power use. The 7970 starts at 70w higher under load than the 670 and 30w higher than the 680 (http://www.anandtech.com/show/6025/radeon-hd-7970-ghz-edition-review-catching-up-to-gtx-680/16), and goes much higher from there once you overclock it (http://www.anandtech.com/show/6025/radeon-hd-7970-ghz-edition-review-catching-up-to-gtx-680/17). I do appreciate its significant headroom, but I'd never run a 7970 at 480-level loads, which is what's required for a big overclock. I accepted that for my 5850 crossfire setup, but that's because it was cheap. If I'm putting signficant money into a card, I want to buy not just speed, but refinement, and that's why I'd still take a 670 over a 7970, despite the fact that the 7970 has now moved just beyond the 670 in average performance due to driver updates.

And since this is a hot deals thread, let me again say that none of this discussion alters my feeling that the 7870 at $200-220 is a blazing bargain, and one that many gamers should be jumping on right now. It, by the way, has the highest performance/watt of any card ever produced, according to the TechPowerUp rankings, and that is just my kind of card. I only wish I could use one in my HTPC.
 
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RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Certainly, if performance/watt is a big consideration, GTX670 takes the cake there. The same I cannot agree with on GTX680 since after-market 7970 GE cards use about the same power (give or take 20W).

We cannot use power consumption numbers from AT's test bench for a couple reasons:

1) Measured at the wall, doesn't take into account PSU efficiency. This makes it impossible to see actual real world power consumption since I may have a Platinum PSU and you may have a Bronze, etc.

2) It measures total system power consumption, and does not isolate for the GPU.

Keep in mind most of us overclock 7970 cards at just stock voltage which puts them at 225-235W of power. The HD7970 GE reference card uses 1.25V to achieve 1050mhz. Also, the hotter the card runs, the more power it tends to use (IDC proved this with CPUs).

Look at my 7970 card - VDCC is my average voltage with peak at 1.174V (which is what I have in signature). HD7970 GE reference uses 1.25V!


An overclocked after-market 670 uses about 200W of power. Therefore you stating that an overclocked 7970 would use near GTX480 levels of power use is not true. The reference 7970 GE card is an entirely different matter but since those are not for sale, use 1.25V to reach just 1050mhz, basically it's not what consumers will actually buy.

==============================================================

Anyway, that HIS 7870 deal in your other thread keeps selling out. $23 cheaper than this deal. HOT! Soon my Seasonic 1000W will arrive based on your other thread. Looking forward to testing it. Thanks!
 
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balane

Senior member
Dec 15, 2006
666
0
76
I just ordered one of these for my back up/garage computer. I put a single fan XFX 7850 card in it but it was far too loud for my tastes so I sold it. Hopefully this one is quiet enough although a couple of reviewers on Newegg state it does get loud when the fan ramps up, we'll see though.

I was wanting the $199 HIS card but I can never catch it in stock and I also worry about its size because this computer is in a Micro ATX case. I know for sure the Asus card will fit just fine.

At any rate, I just wanted to say thank you for the link.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Balane, I am not a fan of the XFX cards this generation.

They look good on paper:



But real world performance tells another story:



This similar XFX double dissipation design seems to cope even worse with 7950/7970 series:



If this card also performs poorly, the issue may be related to your case airflow. A case with poor airflow can have trouble with these after-market designs that dump the heat into the case that doesn't exhaust it effectively.
 
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balane

Senior member
Dec 15, 2006
666
0
76
Temperature was adequate with the XFX card, it was merely the sound level I couldn't tolerate. Any time a game was being played that fan was considerably louder than any other fan in the computer. I don't consider myself sensitive to fan noise but that card really irritated me.
 

DoeBoy

Member
Dec 29, 2000
164
0
0
man guys take the pissing contest somewhere else I am just trying to keep an eye out for deals not Jibba Jabba.
 

balane

Senior member
Dec 15, 2006
666
0
76
Just a heads up. At this point I don't believe this deal from Superbiiz will include the V2 heatsink shown in the OP. The V2 version has dual DVI ports, 8mm exposed heatpipes and identical fans. The one listed by part number at Superbiiz and also the photos they have show the original version with the original heatsink. It has a single DVI connector, 6mm heatpipes, a smaller radiator and two different fans. It's a little louder and a little warmer.

I don't believe this takes away much from the deal but it should be mentioned because I'm certainly hoping for the newer version two. To confirm, I'll let you know which one I receive when my package shows up.

Here are photos of the V1 and V2 heatsinks.

http://wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/ASUS-Radeon-HD-7870-Direct-CU-II.jpg

http://wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/ASUS-Radeon-HD-7870-Direct-CU-II-Revision.jpg

Edit: I just noticed the OP shows photos of both versions of the card as well. Look closely. Some photos show just one DVI connector and an exhaust grill that extends all the way across the mounting bracket. (That's the original version of the card.) and then some of the photos show the newer style with stacked dual DVI connectors and a smaller exhaust grill.

.
 
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