Question Asus mobos burning x3D CpuS?

[GaiaHunter]

It seems all the motherboards manufacturers talk only about the x3d chips.

I wonder if the voltage limitation only works when a x3d is in soc.

If the problem also affected the non x3d chips we should have seen this earlier.

XMP and EXPO can be considered overclocking but in practice no one but lawyers would call turning XMP settings provided by the motherboard overclocking. The worse you should get is the system not booting and drop on the bios so you disable XMP.

This is also a consequence of having chips called the same thing that operate at different voltages to achieve "stock settings". Before this turbo/boost era all the chips under a certain model number used x volts to reach y frequency.

 

[coercitiv]

Note that the terminology changes from Rocket Lake to Alder Lake, so VDDQ in the former refers to MC supply voltage, while in the latter it refers to DRAM voltage. So it is obvious that it is meaningless to give a max value for the latter, as it will depend on the memory speed.

VDDQ on DDR4 Alder Lake does not represent DRAM voltage. My DRAM voltage is set separately as 1.44V

Why do you think MSI calls it "CPU VDDQ" and not "DRAM VDDQ"?

 

[Hitman928]

It says right there that VDDQ_Max is Typ. + 5%, so that'll be 1.26 V. Note that the terminology changes from Rocket Lake to Alder Lake, so VDDQ in the former refers to MC supply voltage, while in the latter it refers to DRAM voltage. So it is obvious that it is meaningless to give a max value for the latter, as it will depend on the memory speed.

That's the maximum voltage supply to be expected across PVT and remain in stock spec. That is different than the actual max allowable voltage.

 

[tamz_msc]

VDDQ on DDR4 Alder Lake does not represent DRAM voltage. My DRAM voltage is set separately as 1.44V

Why do you think MSI calls it "CPU VDDQ" and not "DRAM VDDQ"?

It literally says so on the document you linked.

That's the maximum voltage supply to be expected across PVT and remain in stock spec. That is different than the actual max allowable voltage.

Are we talking about Alder Lake? Then read what the document says, the one linked by @coercitiv.

Why do people have to be so defensive when I made a simple suggestion that AMD should provide datasheets?

 

[coercitiv]

It literally says so on the document you linked.

And I'm giving you a screenshot from Z690 UEFI that shows the reality for the user is wildly different than the one in Intel's datasheet.

I did not pick this parameter at random. During the Alder Lake launch it was a pain to understand what it meant on the DDR4 boards, especially as we knew it meant a completely different thing on DDR5 boards. Consumers had no idea what it was used for and what safe limits it had.

Why do people have to be so defensive when I made a simple suggestion that AMD should provide datasheets?

AMD should provide these datasheets, I'm not arguing that. They have their use. What I'm trying to tell you is these datasheets cannot be used to extract the safe limits for XMP/EXPO.

The one thing Intel is doing to help with memory overclocking is providing a more robust recovery system, in the sense of not having to clear CMOS as often. Other than that we still need to look for alternative sources of information in order to get a sense of what safe voltages to use.

 

[AdamK47]

First, EXPO is not overclocking, as you said, AMD wants people to do tis. Second, well, I have 5 7950x's, all using EXPO and have had for MONTHS, no issue.

Now we see one or 2 bad BIOS, and we don't know all the settings that were used, but since the motherboard makers came out with a fix, it was a problem they admit to.

But the post you replied to was about do USERS know these voltages. THEY DON'T NEED TO UNLESS THEY ARE OVERCLOCKING.

And last, the whole issue has virtually nothing to do with AMD. The motherboard makers had a problem in their BIOS, and they admitted it. But again, you mock AMD and blame them.

Do EXPO profiles specify VSOC?

 

[IEC]

EXPO profile itself does not appear to specify vSOC or IOD/MC voltage.

 

[Markfw]

Do EXPO profiles specify VSOC?

Not that I have seen. And the issue is most likely this exactly. The dram mfg's do not specify that I know of, and even if they do, the motherboard mfg's BIOS must set it wrong, otherwise this would not be an issue. All I do know is that its the BIOS thats a problem, and the motherboard mfg's say thay fixed the problem, it was not an AMD problem.

And all this talk about providing information to the public by AMD was started by an Intel supporter to do exactly what has happened, 2 pages of off-topic anti-AMD talk in a AMD thread.

 

[IEC]

We don't know for sure yet whether it's solely a BIOS problem or not.

I'd wait for all the facts to be revealed before absolving AMD of responsibility (or pillorying them if they screwed up).

 

[TheELF]

AMD should provide these datasheets, I'm not arguing that. They have their use. What I'm trying to tell you is these datasheets cannot be used to extract the safe limits for XMP/EXPO.

The one thing Intel is doing to help with memory overclocking is providing a more robust recovery system, in the sense of not having to clear CMOS as often. Other than that we still need to look for alternative sources of information in order to get a sense of what safe voltages to use.

For the CPU the concept of "safe" voltage is no more, as long as the thermal protection doesn't stop working it will prevent the CPU from blowing up.
What you talk about might still be important to keep your ram save but not your CPU.

You can't increase voltage to above what the CPU will accept and up to that point an increased voltage will just decrease clocks to keep power draw and with that temps under the limit of the CPU.
All of this works on AMD CPUs as well....as long as the thermal protection doesn't blow up.

 

[Hitman928]

For the CPU the concept of "safe" voltage is no more, as long as the thermal protection doesn't stop working it will prevent the CPU from blowing up.
What you talk about might still be important to keep your ram save but not your CPU.

You can't increase voltage to above what the CPU will accept and up to that point an increased voltage will just decrease clocks to keep power draw and with that temps under the limit of the CPU.
All of this works on AMD CPUs as well....as long as the thermal protection doesn't blow up.

This is because modern CPUs have current limits in place as well as temperature (the voltage isn't really what kills CPUs unless you get so high you hit breakdown). Both are important for keeping the CPU safe. However, this also requires the motherboards to be accurately communicating levels with the CPU. From what I understand, motherboards have ways that they could tweak the sensors/registers that could potentially kill a more sensitive CPU when the prior, less sensitive, CPU was able to survive. Maybe this has something to do with what we are seeing.

 

[Hitman928]

It literally says so on the document you linked.

Are we talking about Alder Lake? Then read what the document says, the one linked by @coercitiv.

Why do people have to be so defensive when I made a simple suggestion that AMD should provide datasheets?

I'm fine with calling for AMD to produce data sheets, I'm sure the mobo makers have them already but are under NDA. I was just pointing out that what you showed and what you said it showed were not the same thing and that it wouldn't have given any additional benefit in this case.

 

[MarkPost]

So we have two or three Reddit posts about CPU dead. Its pretty clear that if it would be a BIOS failure, there would be a lot more users claiming the issue. So this is just some guys crancking voltages to hell. Thats all.

 

[IEC]

PRIME X670E-PRO WIFI BIOS 1412

Version 1412

Beta Version

9.2 MB

2023/04/25

SoC voltage for Ryzen 7000X3D series limited to a maximum of 1.30V to protect the CPU and motherboard.

At least for my particular ASUS motherboard, seems like they are limiting to max vSOC of 1.30V. It would probably limit attempts to hit 6400 MEMCLK but that vSOC is overkill for 6000.

 

[Markfw]

The computer I am typing on is that motherboard, version 1410 (thats not on their website) but has a regular 7950x in it. I posted pics above of its settings. But this makes me feel good about the situation.

 

[Mopetar]

"over licking??" that sounds like fun

Ducking autocorrect!

 

[DrMrLordX]

It says right there that VDDQ_Max is Typ. + 5%, so that'll be 1.26 V. Note that the terminology changes from Rocket Lake to Alder Lake, so VDDQ in the former refers to MC supply voltage, while in the latter it refers to DRAM voltage. So it is obvious that it is meaningless to give a max value for the latter, as it will depend on the memory speed.

Well then clearly a lot of Intel systems are/were running out of spec. What good is documentation if it provides "safe" voltage ranges that are routinely violated by default settings and/or XMP?

Do EXPO profiles specify VSOC?

Unknown. It's definitely not listed "on the box" as part of the advertised settings. It wasn't with XMP 2.0 either, yet setting an AM4 system to use XMP 2.0 would definitely change things like vSoC, VDDP, and VDDG (among other things).

 

[tamz_msc]

So we have two or three Reddit posts about CPU dead. Its pretty clear that if it would be a BIOS failure, there would be a lot more users claiming the issue. So this is just some guys crancking voltages to hell. Thats all.

People are reporting that their CPUs are dying trying to boot up after BIOS updates. No OC, no EXPO.

Motherboard makers are removing old BIOS versions from their websites for unknown reasons.

This is much different from a user experimenting with voltages and killing the CPU that way.

 

[Markfw]

People are reporting that their CPUs are dying trying to boot up after BIOS updates. No OC, no EXPO.

Motherboard makers are removing old BIOS versions from their websites for unknown reasons.

This is much different from a user experimenting with voltages and killing the CPU that way.

no, all the motherboard makers are admitting that their new bios fixes problems. You just want to troll an AMD thread with your crap assumptions.

 

[MarkPost]

People are reporting that their CPUs are dying trying to boot up after BIOS updates. No OC, no EXPO.

Motherboard makers are removing old BIOS versions from their websites for unknown reasons.

This is much different from a user experimenting with voltages and killing the CPU that way.

No, "people" as you name it, are two or three random guys, and I dont believe at all they werent doing OC. If it would be an EXPO issue as you pretend it is, a lot of users would have reported dead CPUs, and its not the case, at all. So it doesnt make any sense your try. Of course board makers have to avoid those user practice limiting voltage manipulation. Its the safest they can do.

 

[aigomorla]

You know you guys NEED to chill out with all the Anti-Anti AMD.
I am hearing the same thing as tamz_msc in people reporting the cpu is bricked or board is bricking after updates.

So you guys are going to call me liar as well?

no, all the motherboard makers are admitting that their new bios fixes problems. You just want to troll an AMD thread with your crap assumptions.

No, "people" as you name it, are two or three random guys, and I dont believe at all they werent doing OC. If it would be an EXPO issue as you pretend it is, a lot of users would have reported dead CPUs, and its not the case, at all. So it doesnt make any sense your try. Of course board makers have to avoid those user practice limiting voltage manipulation. Its the safest they can do.

Really?
You guys wanna attack him instead of doing a little debugging on reddit and the web?

Here... new bios's are BRICKING some boards or killing CPU's.

https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/11zb6ln

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/12yq4yb

seriously...
The board makers rushed a fix because they were worried about the fallout.
AMD gave board makers no limits. (YES THEY GAVE BOARD MAKERS VERY LITTLE SET LIMITS)
And this is not a fix.
Its a bandaide, because with limits you can not expect the results we have seen, because those were without limits.

 

[tamz_msc]

no, all the motherboard makers are admitting that their new bios fixes problems. You just want to troll an AMD thread with your crap assumptions.

Nobody knows if it fixes the problems because the root cause hasn't been identified yet. Manufacturers are using stop-gap solutions in the interim to see how things pan out. And yes, they are removing older BIOS that do not have the safety updates.



Asus is just more forthcoming about removing older BIOS, Gigabyte on the other hand has been removing older BIOS and their statement doesn't go into the kind of detail that ASUS made:

Community Notice - ASUS AM5 motherboard owners
An important update for Ryzen7000X3D processor owners
Several AMD Ryzen 7000X3D owners have reported CPU and motherboard failures. We acknowledge the incidents/issues and have been communicating with AMD to analyze the possible causes. We have also contacted affected users to provide support and collect additional information.
Ryzen 7000X3D processors do not allow for CPU ratio or CPU core voltage tuning (CPU overclocking) but do allow for performance tuning and DRAM overclocking via PBO2 and EXPO memory. To support EXPO and/or memory overclocking at DDR5-6000 and beyond, SoC voltage has to be sufficiently increased to ensure compatibility and stability. The amount of voltage required varies between CPU samples. Some processors are more sensitive to overvoltage than others, and some are capable at running higher memory frequencies without needing as much voltage.
As confirmed with AMD, any intentional manipulation of these settings can damage the processor, socket, and motherboard. To mitigate this, we have been working with AMD to define new rules for EXPO memory and SoC voltage. To help protect the CPU and motherboard, we are issuing new EFI updates to limit the maximum available SoC voltage to 1.3V.
We recommend updating your motherboard UEFI BIOS to the latest release. Please also ensure the CPU is cooled adequately. Our recommendation is to use at least a 240mm AIO liquid cooler or high-performance air cooler. If you have been affected, please do not hesitate to contact ASUS support for your region.
FAQ - 1. When are the new UEFI releases going to be released? Our expectation is to have the UEFI BIOS updates posted and available through the service and support website within the next 24 hours.
Juan Jose Guerrero (ASUS)

 

[Markfw]

You know you guys NEED to chill out with all the Anti-Anti AMD.
I am hearing the same thing as tamz_msc in people reporting the cpu is bricked or board is bricking after updates.

So you guys are going to call me liar as well?





Really?
You guys wanna attack him instead of doing a little debugging on reddit and the web?

Here... new bios's are BRICKING some boards or killing CPU's.

https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/11zb6ln

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/12yq4yb

seriously...
The board makers rushed a fix because they were worried about the fallout.
AMD gave board makers no limits. (YES THEY GAVE BOARD MAKERS VERY LITTLE SET LIMITS)
And this is not a fix.
Its a bandaide, because with limits you can not expect the results we have seen, because those were without limits.

and then there are those that have FIVE 7950x/x3d's and no problems at all wondering why everybody is whining in this thread, mostly those that only own Intel, and have an agenda.

Edit: Note that at least the motherboard makers are stating the new bios are trying to limit vcore (and vsoc) so they must admit something is wrong with the bios. What exactly and the real fix may take months to come out.

 

[aigomorla]

and then there are those that have FIVE 7950x/x3d's and no problems at all wondering why everybody is whining in this thread, mostly those that only own Intel, and have an agenda.

Those are 5 that are reported right away in how small of a time frame since they pulled the updates?

Mark 5 is a significant amount at initial discovery from people actually on that section in reddit.

It paints to me an un fully tested bios, and just a stop gap to fix it if possible.

 

[Markfw]

Those are 5 that are reported right away in how small of a time frame since they pulled the updates?

Mark 5 is a significant amount at initial discovery from people actually on that section in reddit.

It paints to me an un fully tested bios, and just a stop gap to fix it if possible.

I have 5 was my point. And yes, untested and stopgap apply. But why are the "whiners" the non-AMD owners ?