News [AT] Google Announces Stadia: A Game Streaming Service

[TypoFairy©]

if they get some kinda bundle deal going with dazn/netflix/spotify/google music I might at least try it. Otherwise I don't really need another bill coming in monthly. I'm finding it harder and harder to get excited for new games. I've already refunded a few games this year on steam that didn't end up being what I hoped they would be. So I can't see myself paying for a streaming service just to likely be disappointed in the content.

 

[Midwayman]

This will never work for people who care. People talk about how lag won't be that bad. The big difference is that lag can't be compensated for in a game streaming environment. Anything above 20ms or so and input lag gets noticeable. That's a pretty respectable PC local input to photons time. Add any amount of network lag there and you're already above that threshold. Add a 30-50ms ping for a pretty local good connection and the input lag is going to be very noticeable. At least now with a local render I can keep that sub 20ms input lag and the server can validate client predictions. With this its all server side. That bad feeling where you got shot behind cover. That is going to be 100% of gameplay.

 

[maddogmcgee]

Not everyone plays fps though. For most strategy games there will be no issue at all. Ditto the majority of RPGs. I assume casual play of mobas would be fine while try harding would be very difficult.

 

[Stuka87]

Not everyone plays fps though. For most strategy games there will be no issue at all. Ditto the majority of RPGs. I assume casual play of mobas would be fine while try harding would be very difficult.

Not true are all. Imagine playing an Action RPG like Witcher 3, where you need to time a parry. Guess what, with the amount of latency induced by streaming games it would be difficult to do so. Turn based RPG's would be fine. A game strategy game like Starcraft would be near impossible to play well. Now games designed for a streaming system like this could have a work around for things like this, where those timing windows are opened way up. But this just dumbs down the game.

 

[maddogmcgee]

Not true are all. Imagine playing an Action RPG like Witcher 3, where you need to time a parry. Guess what, with the amount of latency induced by streaming games it would be difficult to do so. Turn based RPG's would be fine. A game strategy game like Starcraft would be near impossible to play well. Now games designed for a streaming system like this could have a work around for things like this, where those timing windows are opened way up. But this just dumbs down the game.

I think most strategy games actually are fine. This is my admittedly nerdy favourite list from steam so is my most played games (plus Starcraft 2 and Magic Arena). The turned based RPG's will be fine as you said. As will the grand strategy Paradox games, city builder and Civ VI. The only issues would be Starcraft 2 and Grim Dawn. Starcraft 2 wont work without a decent mouse and keyboard setup anyway so I would never try to play outside my home. Stadia with a big library would let me play almost any game I want at home or moving round over christmas holidays etc. To me that would easily be worth the equivalent of a Netflix subscription- even if I had to keep a fairly modern gaming PC for a few games.

Obviously people's mileage will vary depending on budget and gaming preferences but I think it will be sufficient for many people.

 

[TheELF]

Why pay $20 (or more) per month what I can play for free on my own PC that I've already got?

Why pay $20 (or more) per month if you could pay $60 for each single game right?
It all depends on what they will offer,origin basic access is $40 a year and it's completely worth it instead of buying all the battlefields and battlefronts and all the rest individually.

Why pay $60 for a new game when Steam sales exist? There are still some games I’ll purchase right away, but I’ve got such a backlog that by the time I can get around to it, it’s already on sale.

Next time you get all the games you want on a steam sale for free drop me an email,I love me some good AAA free games.
Look at the origin example you can't get the same amount of value for $40 if you buy games,depending on taste of course but that's what I said,It all depends on what they will offer.

 

[antihelten]

Anything above 20ms or so and input lag gets noticeable. That's a pretty respectable PC local input to photons time.

This is completely false. You will basically never find a PC game with less than 20ms of input lag. Under 20 ms of input lag would be amazingly good for local input on a PC.

In reality most PC games (and console games) have input lag in the 50-150 ms range. Generally only super twitchy games like fighting games and competitive shooters are noticeably better, and even then it is pretty much impossible to find anything much lower than about 25ms.*

For the average user not playing fighting games or competitive shooters to notice, you pretty much have to get above 150ms or so. For fighting games and competitive shooters the threshold is lower, but Stadia is obviously not aimed at such games.

Eurogamer have tested the most recent version of Stadia running AC:O and found the input lag comparable to that of an Xbox one X (and only about 1 frame worse than running locally on a PC). And considering that I haven't seen anyone complaining about input lag in AC:O on the Xbox one X (except for excessive display lag), it stands to reason that the average user won't complain about it on Stadia either.

*Not counting VR games, which do actually go below 20ms (albeit not all of them), but they use a bunch of tricks to do get there, including time warping and what not.

Not true are all. Imagine playing an Action RPG like Witcher 3, where you need to time a parry. Guess what, with the amount of latency induced by streaming games it would be difficult to do so.

No it won't. AC: Odyssey also has the player parrying, dodging, sidestepping and what not, and it has been shown to be perfectly playable on Stadia (or at least comparable to playing the game on console).

And both AC:O and Witcher 3 are fairly high latency games, with quite forgiving animation windows, so it's not really an issue here. Even a game like Nioh, which is far more sensitive to timing than Witcher 3, still has input latency of about 120 ms (including display lag), which is not that far off from the 166 ms seen with AC:O on Stadia.

 

[Stuka87]

No it won't. AC: Odyssey also has the player parrying, dodging, sidestepping and what not, and it has been shown to be perfectly playable on Stadia (or at least comparable to playing the game on console).

And both AC:O and Witcher 3 are fairly high latency games, with quite forgiving animation windows, so it's not really an issue here. Even a game like Nioh, which is far more sensitive to timing than Witcher 3, still has input latency of about 120 ms (including display lag), which is not that far off from the 166 ms seen with AC:O on Stadia.

To my knowledge, nobody has been allowed to play any of these games. So you can't say anything has been proven to work ok.

16.6ms is one frame of latency. Even if you live next door to the data center, your internet connection is going to give you roughly 15-20ms latency. Plus the time the game takes to render on their machines, and then make it out to your display. By the time that all happens, you are looking at MANY frames of latency. It *WILL* be noticeable.

 

[Midwayman]

This is completely false. You will basically never find a PC game with less than 20ms of input lag. Under 20 ms of input lag would be amazingly good for local input on a PC.

In reality most PC games (and console games) have input lag in the 50-150 ms range. Generally only super twitchy games like fighting games and competitive shooters are noticeably better, and even then it is pretty much impossible to find anything much lower than about 25ms.*

For the average user not playing fighting games or competitive shooters to notice, you pretty much have to get above 150ms or so. For fighting games and competitive shooters the threshold is lower, but Stadia is obviously not aimed at such games.

Eurogamer have tested the most recent version of Stadia running AC:O and found the input lag comparable to that of an Xbox one X (and only about 1 frame worse than running locally on a PC). And considering that I haven't seen anyone complaining about input lag in AC:O on the Xbox one X (except for excessive display lag), it stands to reason that the average user won't complain about it on Stadia either.

*Not counting VR games, which do actually go below 20ms (albeit not all of them), but they use a bunch of tricks to do get there, including time warping and what not.

I never said you could do it with a potato. A good PC with a high refresh monitor is required. Check out blurbusters for examples if you only own a potato. 20ms is considered the threshold for presence in VR. IE when lag get noticeable. Typical and objectionable are different numbers and a lot more subjective.

I personally can tell when I have my PC setup wrong and I'm getting 30-50ms input lag. At 60hz 30-60ms is probably more normal given you have hardware capable of keeping up with 60hz. 150ms is just absurd. I've accidently left the post processing on my TV that gets it over 100ms and it feels like this weird swimming sensation where you are completely disconnected from the game.

 

[coercitiv]

Eurogamer have tested the most recent version of Stadia running AC:O and found the input lag comparable to that of an Xbox one X (and only about 1 frame worse than running locally on a PC).

 

[Stuka87]

66ms is way more than one frame.

And these tests aren't entirely valid as they clearly state it was conducted on a Google connection. Since Google was in control of the tests, they would of course make sure it was going to be seen in the best light possible.

We need to wait for real world tests where Google is not involved at all.

 

[Rifter]

66ms is way more than one frame.

And these tests aren't entirely valid as they clearly state it was conducted on a Google connection. Since Google was in control of the tests, they would of course make sure it was going to be seen in the best light possible.

We need to wait for real world tests where Google is not involved at all.

I agree, no way they are pulling this off without at least 5-10 frames of latency, which will make it unusable as a gaming platform for anything not turn based.

 

[maddie]

66ms is way more than one frame.

And these tests aren't entirely valid as they clearly state it was conducted on a Google connection. Since Google was in control of the tests, they would of course make sure it was going to be seen in the best light possible.

We need to wait for real world tests where Google is not involved at all.

They use the most favorable, to them, choices.

PC 30fps 133ms
Stadia 166ms

That is 1 frame. 33ms @ 30fps.

 

[Rifter]

They use the most favorable, to them, choices.

PC 30fps 133ms
Stadia 166ms

That is 1 frame. 33ms @ 30fps.

If 30FPS is their goal then this really isnt a gaming system anyways.

 

[coercitiv]

And these tests aren't entirely valid as they clearly state it was conducted on a Google connection. Since Google was in control of the tests, they would of course make sure it was going to be seen in the best light possible.

I posted the latency table to provide proper context to Eurogamer's findings, not to support/contradict their conclusion.

 

[Midwayman]

66ms is way more than one frame.

And these tests aren't entirely valid as they clearly state it was conducted on a Google connection. Since Google was in control of the tests, they would of course make sure it was going to be seen in the best light possible.

We need to wait for real world tests where Google is not involved at all.

Yup, 66ms is about 4 frames at 60hz. Interesting they think a PC has 79ms of lag at 60fps, not including display lag. So A frame is rendered every 16.66ms minimum if that's accurate. What is the PC doing for 62.34ms? To be clear that 16.66ms has to include game logic time or it would fall behind. Render time is shorter, obviously. Some forms of AA and buffering can add some input lag, but that is a HUGE amount of time. 4 frames doing what exactly? Something doesn't smell right about their numbers.

 

[antihelten]

To my knowledge, nobody has been allowed to play any of these games. So you can't say anything has been proven to work ok.

Tons of people have already been allowed to play AC:O on stadia. Go look up project stream.

So yes I absolutely can say this.

16.6ms is one frame of latency.

At 60 FPS. At 30 FPS one frame is 33.3 ms.

Even if you live next door to the data center, your internet connection is going to give you roughly 15-20ms latency. Plus the time the game takes to render on their machines, and then make it out to your display. By the time that all happens, you are looking at MANY frames of latency. It *WILL* be noticeable.

You are indeed looking at multiple frames of latency (5 on average with AC:O), but no this won't be noticeable since multiple frames of latency is completely normal for PC gaming (and even more so for console gaming). I understand that you clearly haven't looked into this, but it's not like this is hard to learn about. Just take a look at eurogamer link for actual measured latency numbers.

I never said you could do it with a potato. A good PC with a high refresh monitor is required. Check out blurbusters for examples if you only own a potato. 20ms is considered the threshold for presence in VR. IE when lag get noticeable. Typical and objectionable are different numbers and a lot more subjective.

I personally can tell when I have my PC setup wrong and I'm getting 30-50ms input lag. At 60hz 30-60ms is probably more normal given you have hardware capable of keeping up with 60hz. 150ms is just absurd. I've accidently left the post processing on my TV that gets it over 100ms and it feels like this weird swimming sensation where you are completely disconnected from the game.

The numbers I mentioned are not for completely normal gaming computers, not potatoes. I doubt that you can tell the difference on your PC between 20ms input lag on one hand and 30-50 ms on the other. Most likely you can tell the difference between 20ms ADDED input lag and 30-50ms (from display lag, network, whatever), but not 30-50 ms total input lag, since very very few games ever get that low.

If you can indeed tell a difference then you are very much in a tiny minority of extremely sensitive people. If so, then Stadia probably isn't for you, but I doubt Google cares, considering how tiny of a percentage people like you make up of the market.

VR is a completely different issue, since you are also moving your head (and thus activating your vestibular system), but that is not relevant for Stadia.

And these tests aren't entirely valid as they clearly state it was conducted on a Google connection. Since Google was in control of the tests, they would of course make sure it was going to be seen in the best light possible.

This doesn't appear to have made a significant difference though.

During project stream, they also tested latency on a home internet connection, and while they had slightly higher latency (179 ms versus 166 ms), the difference was small enough that it could probably be explained by the difference in software builds (project stream being a beta version), and not necessarily by any difference in internet connection.

It's also worth noting that Google has claimed that anyone using Stadia will never be more than 64km from the datacenter running the game, so if you are getting excessive network latency it's probably your ISP's fault not Stadias.

They use the most favorable, to them, choices.

PC 30fps 133ms
Stadia 166ms

That is 1 frame. 33ms @ 30fps.

That's not simply the most favorable choices, it's the most apples to apples choices. Stadia in that test was running at 30 fps, and as such the obvious apples to apples comparison would be PC at 30 fps also.

If 30FPS is their goal then this really isnt a gaming system anyways.

30 FPS was what Stadia was running at during the beta (project Stream), but their current goal is 60 FPS.

btw do you consider consoles running at 30 fps to not be gaming systems either?

So A frame is rendered every 16.66ms minimum if that's accurate. What is the PC doing for 62.34ms?.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/2803

 

[Rifter]

30 FPS was what Stadia was running at during the beta (project Stream), but their current goal is 60 FPS.

btw do you consider consoles running at 30 fps to not be gaming systems either?

Correct i consider 60 FPS to be the minimum for any competitive gaming. 30FPs is fine for turn based, or some single player games. but 30FPS is not good enough for a main gaming PC/console/device IMO.

 

[antihelten]

Correct i consider 60 FPS to be the minimum for any competitive gaming. 30FPs is fine for turn based, or some single player games. but 30FPS is not good enough for a main gaming PC/console/device IMO.

You're kind of moving the goal posts here though, seeing as your original post said nothing about competitive gaming, but simply that 30 FPS didn't constitute a gaming system.

Either way though, having 60 FPS as a personal minimum for competitive gaming is completely understandable, but seeing how many console players out there are perfectly happy with playing competitively online at 30 FPS, it's obviously not a universal opinion.

regardless though, this is quite irrelevant with regards to Stadia, seeing as it is targeting 60 FPS not 30 FPS.

 

[Rifter]

You're kind of moving the goal posts here though, seeing as your original post said nothing about competitive gaming, but simply that 30 FPS didn't constitute a gaming system.

Either way though, having 60 FPS as a personal minimum for competitive gaming is completely understandable, but seeing how many console players out there are perfectly happy with playing competitively online at 30 FPS, it's obviously not a universal opinion.

regardless though, this is quite irrelevant with regards to Stadia, seeing as it is targeting 60 FPS not 30 FPS.

If it is indeed targeting 60fps then thats great, however then stuka is right about the latency being a big issue and being several frames behind.

I hope they pull it off i just dont see them overcoming the latency issues, and i dont see google sticking with it long enough to work out the technical issues that may crop up.

Edit to add, I also meant competitive as in multiplayer vs other people, not like a esports type of competitive gaming.

 

[paperfist]

I want a streaming service for Amiga and C-64 games!

 

[antihelten]

If it is indeed targeting 60fps then thats great, however then stuka is right about the latency being a big issue and being several frames behind.

I hope they pull it off i just dont see them overcoming the latency issues, and i dont see google sticking with it long enough to work out the technical issues that may crop up.

Being several frames behind is not necessarily an issue, as it is completely standard on both PC and console. Only someone who has no understanding of input latency would think so.

Take DOOM for instance (which has been confirmed for Stadia) it literally runs with a 5 frame latency (at 60 FPS), but unless you think DOOM is unplayable, this is clearly not an issue.

Sure for professional gaming, it probably won't be good enough, but Stadia is obviously not aimed at such.

 

[Midwayman]

Take DOOM for instance (which has been confirmed for Stadia) it literally runs with a 5 frame latency (at 60 FPS), but unless you think DOOM is unplayable, this is clearly not an issue.

https://www.gameinformer.com/gdc-20...adias-input-lag-is-noticeable-but-not-ruinous

I don't know, the comments I'm seeing are not promising given that the demos are absolute best case scenarios.

I guess if you're used to potato gaming it might be okay so long as you live near an end point and have a really good unlimited internet connection.

 

[antihelten]

https://www.gameinformer.com/gdc-20...adias-input-lag-is-noticeable-but-not-ruinous

I don't know, the comments I'm seeing are not promising given that the demos are absolute best case scenarios.

I guess if you're used to potato gaming it might be okay so long as you live near an end point and have a really good unlimited internet connection.

When I said that DOOM already has 5 frames of latency, I wasn't talking about Stadia. This is what DOOM already has on a PS4.

So yes of course games (including DOOM) will also have latency on Stadia, as indicated by the linked article. But people in this thread are behaving like this is something that doesn't already exists in the majority of games on PC and consoles.

So unless you think the Xbox one X or PS4 are potatoes, Stadia should be fine (especially considering that the tests and impressions so far have been at 30 FPS not the final 60 FPS). And as mentioned above Stadia endpoints will always be within 64 km, so distance is a non-issue. Really good unlimited internet just mean 25 Mbps unlimited which is completely standard where I'm from, but I guess people with "potato" quality internet might not enjoy Stadia as much.

 

[TheELF]

I want a streaming service for Amiga and C-64 games!

There ya go.
https://www.file-hunter.com/AMIGA/