At what point are problems with a new-to-me vehicle not the dealership's?

stinkynathan

Senior member
Oct 12, 2004
497
0
76
I bought a 2001 Saturn SL. Love the car. Not luxurious, but getting 35-40 mpg is nice.

I took delivery about April 1. Before I bought it, some work was done to the car at their service center. They added cruise, changed valve cover, timing cover, oil pan gaskets, and replaced the muffler strap.

It turns out they DIDN'T change the muffler strap. Not a big deal...cheap part. I haven't messed with it because it wasn't worth the trouble. However, now I'm finding that the oil pan gasket they replaced is leaking pretty significantly. Something like 2 quarts per 4,000 miles.

So, at what point, in your opinion, is the oil pan problem my baby? Even though it's been nearly three months, I'm hoping that I can get their service center to replace the gasket correctly and actually replace the muffler strap.

Thoughts?
 

punjabiplaya

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 2006
3,495
1
71
when you take too damn long to take it back in to them. they replaced it improperly, go back to them ASAP and get it fixed. They charged you for a service which they did not do (or do correctly).
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
0
My sense is it's too late. I'm sure there was no warranty with the car. If, however, you came back next day and pointed it out chances are they'd not be aholes about it, but 3 months later a 10 year old car with no warranty it's probably worth calling them but don't expect anything, nor should you really.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
My sense is it's too late. I'm sure there was no warranty with the car. If, however, you came back next day and pointed it out chances are they'd not be aholes about it, but 3 months later a 10 year old car with no warranty it's probably worth calling them but don't expect anything, nor should you really.

A minor leak / future potential leak in an oil pan gasket probably wouldn't be showing the next day or even a week later.

It's like an exhaust gasket not torqued right. It's quiet as can be for a while until part of it gets blown out.

IMHO this should be covered and the strap installed.
 

HarryLui

Golden Member
Aug 31, 2001
1,518
33
91
It turns out they DIDN'T change the muffler strap. Not a big deal...cheap part. I haven't messed with it because it wasn't worth the trouble. However, now I'm finding that the oil pan gasket they replaced is leaking pretty significantly. Something like 2 quarts per 4,000 miles.


Any drops onto the ground? Most Saturn do burn oil. 1 qt every 2000 miles is considered "normal" by the Saturn Crop. I'd advise you to stick with 3000 oil interval and change check the oil lever every fill up.
 

thescreensavers

Diamond Member
Aug 3, 2005
9,930
2
81
Dont most dealerships give some 12 month warranty on their work?

hmm, maybe not 12, but I am not sure, check if the dealer has that.
 

HeXen

Diamond Member
Dec 13, 2009
7,832
38
91
chances are you realize, its probably that one or a few of the oil pan bolts worked itself loose. seem to me worth a shot to grab a wrench and just make sure their tight before spending the time to take it in an all.

when i change gaskets like those, i always use high heat gasket silicon as well, that stuff is awesome.
 

Viperoni

Lifer
Jan 4, 2000
11,084
1
71
One my turd I used Permatex Black oil-resistant RTV for the oil pan gasket, worked fine.

"The Right Stuff" is even better, and is the absolute best thing to use on turd valve covers... next to the Saturn original gasket.
 

stinkynathan

Senior member
Oct 12, 2004
497
0
76
Any drops onto the ground? Most Saturn do burn oil. 1 qt every 2000 miles is considered "normal" by the Saturn Crop. I'd advise you to stick with 3000 oil interval and change check the oil lever every fill up.

Hah. Yes there are drops on the ground. I got back from a ~420 mile drive Thursday night and parked the car in the driveway. Friday morning I moved the car so the wife could get in and that slick was fresh. It doesn't leak this bad all the time, but it seems to leak a bunch immediately after a longer trip, then very slowly drip as it sits.

System_Mechanic said:
chances are you realize, its probably that one or a few of the oil pan bolts worked itself loose. seem to me worth a shot to grab a wrench and just make sure their tight before spending the time to take it in an all.

when i change gaskets like those, i always use high heat gasket silicon as well, that stuff is awesome.

That MAY be the case. The problem is: the oil pan gasket replacement procedure on these cars is pretty involved. It requires removing a bunch of covers, engine mounts, and all kinds of stuff. It is listed as a 4 hour job on their maintenance sheet.

I was under the vehicle to find where the leak was coming from, knowing that these vehicles are prone to various leaks. The leak is definitely the oil pan gasket and DEFINITELY in a spot that would require me to move a a few things to get to the bolts. They did use RTV when they did the job.

My problem with this whole deal: I start work at 7am every morning at the shop....40 mi away from here. I'm usually back at home by about 6-7pm at night. This is partially why I haven't gotten the muffler strap fixed. I hate to do something like this over the phone, because I don't want to get BSed.
 

BUTCH1

Lifer
Jul 15, 2000
20,433
1,769
126
She's just marking her territory.., J/K, if it gets no worse than what it is now I would just live with it TBH..
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
You sure it's not the front or rear mains? That would be more likely after long trips.
 

yottabit

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2008
1,375
240
116
The muffler strap is like $40 from the dealer and is very easy to replace

I don't quite remember how long it took me, but it was somewhere between 5 minutes and a half hour

I would talk to the dealer about your oil pan, though. And people are right about checking your oil regularly. Saturn S-series have basically a faulty oil ring design that causes them to burn oil (at least with dino oil) at high mileage. Eventually you will see a large increase in oil consumption. My car currently burns about a qt ever 5k miles which isn't too bad, but I check it every other fill up because I expect some day it will increase substantially. Unfortunately the cars also have a timing chain setup which is very vulnerable to damage from lack of oil pressure, so it can be a doosey if you run the oil low.

Pretty much the only reason saturn motors die is because people run them low on oil. Or, at really high miles, they don't replace the chain guide assembly and that takes the motor out (but this is usually at 200k plus)
 

kornphlake

Golden Member
Dec 30, 2003
1,567
9
81
My saturn burns about a quart of oil with every two tanks of gas, if you're adding less than a quart a month your lucky. If it's been 3 months since you bought the car and the problem is just now showing up it's your problem, the stealership isn't going to warranty work that was done before you purchased the car IMO. The warranty most likely is not transferable and since the work was (allegedly) done before you took ownership any warranty would be terminated when you bought the car. It's worth making a call, but I wouldn't expect much.

Oil pans in these cars are tough to get to and it's my understanding that you've got about 50% chance of a leak after re-sealing. I'd just keep topping off the oil and wait until you've got something more serious to repair/replace, the motor mounts should be going out soon...
 

p0nd

Member
Apr 18, 2011
139
0
71
Re: S-Series burning oil, wasn't this issue fixed by GM sometime around 2000-2001?

I'm currently driving an '01 SL1 and love it. Only major-ish problem was a busted air intake manifold that made the car run like a dying horse until i got it fixed. I don't check the oil enough though, this thread has made me realize that (140K miles).
 

yottabit

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2008
1,375
240
116
Re: S-Series burning oil, wasn't this issue fixed by GM sometime around 2000-2001?

I'm currently driving an '01 SL1 and love it. Only major-ish problem was a busted air intake manifold that made the car run like a dying horse until i got it fixed. I don't check the oil enough though, this thread has made me realize that (140K miles).

99 up DOHC used a revised block & head (block reinforced with lower NVH, head switched to 9 bolt exhaust mani. from 5 bolt) which featured a number of changes. I've heard rumors that they were supposed to reduce oil burning but IMO it's either bs or the changes they made weren't enough. Supposedly the problem is the Saturn motors were one of the first to use 5w-30 oil and the oil ring design was fine for early 1990s oil but over time the formula changed and modern oil causes the oil ring to cake up and lose it's ability to properly seal.

There are multiple ways you can resolve this, buying aftermarket pistons with better oil drain holes is one way, I've also seen success with people who literally just drilled 4-6 holes in the oil ring land symmetrically around the piston too. Then re-ring the engine obviously

99 up also featured an "improved" manual trans differential pin. That's another problem with these cars if you drive the manuals hard (think: wheelspin) the tranny will explode once the differential pin rips out from the centrifugal reactive force. The "improvement" still doesn't really gaurantee anything

Unfortunately 99 up head design is also gimped. They have different lifters and cam profiles which do result in better NVH and maybe a mpg or two at the sake of poor headflow. This was supposedly compensated for with the changes to the lower end, but IMO and I believe general saturn enthusiast consensus is that they aren't as fast as the older engines. I believe the SOHC design was unchanged but could be wrong


Also 2 qts per change is definitely something to worry about. I would try to get that fixed ASAP especially because it could start leaking a lot faster, esp. with variation due to temperature
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
Re: S-Series burning oil, wasn't this issue fixed by GM sometime around 2000-2001?

I'm currently driving an '01 SL1 and love it. Only major-ish problem was a busted air intake manifold that made the car run like a dying horse until i got it fixed. I don't check the oil enough though, this thread has made me realize that (140K miles).

QFT...my former 1996 SC2 had this issue...Marvel Mystery Oil helped it alot, but I still had to add a quart every 1500-2000 miles.

My wife's 2000 SL2 doesn't burn a drop at 100k really. She changes it every 3000 miles though religiously (I don't agree with 3000 mile changes personally, but it's not my car).

She loves her Saturn, she bought it in 2000 when she came here for a 6-12month visa job. She thought it much more reliable than the Porsche 924 she bought 5 years previously with 'low miles' another time she was here.

All that said, most of these cars are like $2,000-3000 tops. You really can't expect major reliability at that age and the mileage...most are probably turning 150k or more and as more or less economy cars had little maintenance.

My wife's is in need of a clutch. Not a quick job at all...most pay $1000 or more for this. That's about 30-50% of the car's value...her's would be worth it for someone looking for reliable transportation. Everything has been kept up on, even the headliner was redone when needed. New factory mats were bought around 50k, any plastic cosmetics issues were replaced...car looks like it has half the mileage it does.

Unfortunately that doesn't change the selling price, only the value to someone that gets it.

To the OP, if they said the oil pan was fixed and it's leaking they should stand behind that. The muffler strap thing too. Some say they can do one in 5 mins above??? I am not sure how the Saturn is set up off the top of my head. If it's just a rubber hanger than 'maybe' 5 mins would be close...I am willing to bet in reality this is closer to 15-30 mins for most.

If it's a welded piece then for some, yeah 15-30 mins still; but most don't have welding gear at home or do but requires breaking it out and setting it up again.

In the end though if you paid for that and they didn't do it, you'd be an asshat to re-do the job for free...if you do do it at least get your money back or better yet leverage service like tire rotations, oil changes, coolant flush, etc in lieu of it.

I recently found out my hubcentric spacers were somehow left out. I wasn't sure where it happened since I didn't drive much over the last year (averaged out to about 15 miles a day)...I thought I lost a wheel weight.

Anyway I called the tire guy I last used to ask if he had an extra set of spacers turn up ever. I have been going there a long time (since 1988). I told him I wasn't holding him responsible or anything, just if he had them I wouldn't have to buy another set ($40).

He was willing to cover them even though I told him there had been a couple other places that rotated my tires and was at another tire shop getting new tires installed from Tire Rack instead of him (I needed tires that week and he was 40 miles from my office)

In the end he insisted next time I was in for new rubber, he'd do my synthetic oil change at no charge.
 

yottabit

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2008
1,375
240
116
the muffler strap is literally just a long band of metal that wraps around the muffler and the mounting point and is tightened by a nut and bolt. Just make sure you get an oem replacement part as most aftermarkets won't fit. Once you get under the ar it's pretty obvious how to replace it. Only trouble is getting at the bolt. I said 5 to 30 min because I forget whether or not I had to take off my passenger b ack wheel on my sc2
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
the muffler strap is literally just a long band of metal that wraps around the muffler and the mounting point and is tightened by a nut and bolt. Just make sure you get an oem replacement part as most aftermarkets won't fit. Once you get under the ar it's pretty obvious how to replace it. Only trouble is getting at the bolt. I said 5 to 30 min because I forget whether or not I had to take off my passenger b ack wheel on my sc2

no way 5 mins, but thanks.
 
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