At what point do we accept our bodies for what they are? e.g. gender reassignment

[JimKiler]

First of all i am probably prejudice against gender reassignment surgery but i do believe there is a small amount of people who truly need it but i am not sure everyone who is getting the surgery truly needs it.

Compared to some other abnormal conditions, deformities, etc i am not convinced we should do gender reassignment. A person with dwarfism has to accept their condition. I understand this can be a painful process and even Peter Dinklage still struggles to accept his diminutive height.

I also understand we play god every time we have surgery and save lives. One one side we have people who want plastic surgery and it is clear they have a mental condition e.g. body dysmorphia therefore they should not have surgery and on the other hand we can change people for the better e.g. someone with a heart defect and we put a pacemaker in.

Where do we draw the line or do we prevent a line from even being drawn?

 

[nakedfrog]

Well, unless you go out of the country, it's my understanding that a therapist well-versed in gender identity issues determines whether one should get SRS. It's not something to be undertaken lightly. The expense and long-term health concerns kind of take care of the line-drawing, I would think.

 

[woolfe9998]

How does people getting gender reassignment surgery affect you?

 

[JimKiler]

How does people getting gender reassignment surgery affect you?

It doesn't and you misunderstand my real question which is when do we accept our bodies for what they are. We know people get plastic surgery all the time and they have mental disorders. I was just thinking of this because of Bruce Jenner and wondering if we should draw a line. I think in writing my original post i concluded we cannot draw the line since we do not draw the line for other surgeries where we are playing god as well.

Why do you think it affects me? this is the discussion club, any i not allowed to discuss this? Have i attacked anyone to should cause people to attack me or shut down this thread?

 

[cabri]

You pay for it; go ahead; it is your choice and feelings.

Me paying for you; nope

It is not my obligation/responsibility to make you feel good/different.

 

[dank69]

It doesn't and you misunderstand my real question which is when do we accept our bodies for what they are. We know people get plastic surgery all the time and they have mental disorders. I was just thinking of this because of Bruce Jenner and wondering if we should draw a line. I think in writing my original post i concluded we cannot draw the line since we do not draw the line for other surgeries where we are playing god as well.

Why do you think it affects me? this is the discussion club, any i not allowed to discuss this? Have i attacked anyone to should cause people to attack me or shut down this thread?

How is asking that question "attacking" you? It is a valid question. I assume he doesn't think it affects you. If you are even pondering whether or not we should draw this line you must first demonstrate how you are (or anyone is) negatively affected, otherwise why draw a line in the first place?

 

[SMOGZINN]

Where do we draw the line or do we prevent a line from even being drawn?

Where do we draw that line on any issue? Define a need for us to limit others people's actions, and we can consider if that need outweighs their rights to make decisions for their own bodies.

 

[JimKiler]

How is asking that question "attacking" you? It is a valid question. I assume he doesn't think it affects you. If you are even pondering whether or not we should draw this line you must first demonstrate how you are (or anyone is) negatively affected, otherwise why draw a line in the first place?

Good point while he did not attack me, i interpreted that way, but in fact he was steering the discussion away from the subject at hand for no valid reason.

 

[dank69]

Good point while he did not attack me, i interpreted that way, but in fact he was steering the discussion away from the subject at hand for no valid reason.

No, he is asking a question directly related to yours. You ask if we should prevent drawing a line in the first place and your answer to his question will lead you to the answer to yours.

 

[JimKiler]

No, he is asking a question directly related to yours. You ask if we should prevent drawing a line in the first place and your answer to his question will lead you to the answer to yours.

No it will not, i could be asking a question about myself, not others.

 

[dank69]

No it will not, i could be asking a question about myself, not others.

What are you saying? It seemed to me that in your OP you were asking where to draw the line between what surgery should be legal or illegal. Are you actually asking where you should draw this line for yourself? Are you considering some elective surgery for yourself?

You *could* be asking a question about yourself? Are you saying you aren't sure what you are asking or are you trying to be coy?

 

[SMOGZINN]

we do not draw the line for other surgeries where we are playing god as well.

One of the things you should perhaps think about is just what do you mean by 'playing god'? At what point does changing one's body become 'playing god'? It seems to me that there is a smooth progression of body modification from cutting hair, trimming nails, shaping cuticles, shaving body hair, coloring hair, cleaning teeth, piercing body parts, tattoos, pulling teeth, filling teeth, implanting fake teeth, removing moles and skin tags, laser surgery to fix eyesight...I can just keep going with more and more extreme and invasive methods to modify our body, either for vanity or for function, until we get to major body modification like boob jobs and gender reassignment surgery, which can be done for either purpose.

 

[JimKiler]

One of the things you should perhaps think about is just what do you mean by 'playing god'? At what point does changing one's body become 'playing god'? It seems to me that there is a smooth progression of body modification from cutting hair, trimming nails, shaping cuticles, shaving body hair, coloring hair, cleaning teeth, piercing body parts, tattoos, pulling teeth, filling teeth, implanting fake teeth, removing moles and skin tags, laser surgery to fix eyesight...I can just keep going with more and more extreme and invasive methods to modify our body, either for vanity or for function, until we get to major body modification like boob jobs and gender reassignment surgery, which can be done for either purpose.

that is why i said earlier i answered this question because all of the above could be considered modification or even taking vitamins. But I know groups exist and celebrate their abnormalities e.g. dwarfism and people with this do not want medicine to "fix" them and make them normal height. I myself have had lasik surgery so i already modified my body. But lets say we can have surgery to allow our vision to be twice as good, any reason we should not do that and accept who we are and were born as? You could go do the road of steriods and HGH as well. I think i would like to accept myself and not take steriods or HGH but there may come a time i want to.

Should we as a human race just become amish?

 

[JimKiler]

What are you saying? It seemed to me that in your OP you were asking where to draw the line between what surgery should be legal or illegal. Are you actually asking where you should draw this line for yourself? Are you considering some elective surgery for yourself?

You *could* be asking a question about yourself? Are you saying you aren't sure what you are asking or are you trying to be coy?

What I am saying as when should we accept our bodies with our flaws instead of trying to change them, when do we accept them?

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

There's no ethical line on body modifications, no point where it becomes innately unethical.

The details of any particular change might theoretically be unethical - altering your lungs so you exhale mustard gas for example - but that's because of the secondary effects of the particular modification, not because it's a modification. And the practical side of a change might make it a bad idea - too expensive, risky, etc. But a change is not, in and of itself, an ethical concern.

There's no where we should stop just because it's too far to be ethical.

 

[nakedfrog]

What I am saying as when should we accept our bodies with our flaws instead of trying to change them, when do we accept them?

How about we modify your question and see how you answer:

Why should we accept our bodies with our flaws instead of trying to change them?

 

[JimKiler]

How about we modify your question and see how you answer:

Why should we accept our bodies with our flaws instead of trying to change them?

Because our bodies do not define who we are as person with a personality.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Because our bodies do not define who we are as person with a personality.

Then it sounds like we are in the realm of personal preference. Even if my body does not define who I am as a person if I feel that I can make my body better express who I am as a person it might be worth doing. Think of it like choosing what clothes you wear. We could all choose to wear basic grey tee-shirts and jeans, but most do not.

 

[sm625]

People can do what they want. The rest can choose not to waste their time thinking about it.

 

[crashtech]

We're always looking for a way to feel better about ourselves. The grass is always greener, etc. In the 20th century, there was a pill for everything that ailed you, in the 21st, a surgery.

I think my main objection to the reassignment process is its relatively crude nature; perhaps one day it will trivial to transform yourself into exactly what you should have been had you been born a different sex, and even back again should it not yield the anticipated result. As it stands, with the current state of the art, it almost seems as if people are being encouraged to self-mutilate.

 

[woolfe9998]

What I am saying as when should we accept our bodies with our flaws instead of trying to change them, when do we accept them?

You posed the question as "at what point do we accept our bodies..." By using the pronoun "we" rather than I, you are implying at a minimum some sort of moral judgment about the choices of others. At maximum, something about what should or shouldn't be legal. So my question was on point - if you're discussing what is or is not appropriate conduct on the part of others, it is quite natural for one to inquire as to whether such choices have any effect on you.

I can only make decisions about my body for myself. I believe in the principle that people should have autonomy over their own bodies. It's why, for example, I'm pro-choice on abortion, and why I think suicide is an absolute right. To me the principle of autonomy over one's body is inviolate unless said person is harming others in whatever choice they make. With gender reassignment the only situation I can think of is if the person has young children in school, it may be exposing them to ridicule if daddy suddenly shows up to pick them up after school dressed like a mommy. If the person in question has no kids, or has grown kids like Bruce/Caitlin, I can't see any reason I should even care about what choice he makes. Even in the former case, it sill might not harm the kids, depending on circumstance.

The bottom line is the only "we" here is the "we" who have no business judging others for what they choose to do with their bodies.

 

[crashtech]

Society judges others for what they do to their bodies all the time, the most obvious example being the so-called War on Drugs.

 

[dank69]

We're always looking for a way to feel better about ourselves. The grass is always greener, etc. In the 20th century, there was a pill for everything that ailed you, in the 21st, a surgery.

I think my main objection to the reassignment process is its relatively crude nature; perhaps one day it will trivial to transform yourself into exactly what you should have been had you been born a different sex, and even back again should it not yield the anticipated result. As it stands, with the current state of the art, it almost seems as if people are being encouraged to self-mutilate.

Encouraged? Who is encouraging the behavior? As far as I know the process is discouraged. Publicly saying you did something does not constitute encouraging others to do the same.

On top of that, many forms of self-mutilation are completely legal. Getting your ears pierced is self-mutilation.

 

[Zodiark1593]

First of all i am probably prejudice against gender reassignment surgery but i do believe there is a small amount of people who truly need it but i am not sure everyone who is getting the surgery truly needs it.

Compared to some other abnormal conditions, deformities, etc i am not convinced we should do gender reassignment. A person with dwarfism has to accept their condition. I understand this can be a painful process and even Peter Dinklage still struggles to accept his diminutive height.

I also understand we play god every time we have surgery and save lives. One one side we have people who want plastic surgery and it is clear they have a mental condition e.g. body dysmorphia therefore they should not have surgery and on the other hand we can change people for the better e.g. someone with a heart defect and we put a pacemaker in.

Where do we draw the line or do we prevent a line from even being drawn?

If perfection is the end goal, then whatever means necessary will be utlized, even if perfection will never be achieved, it gives something to strive for. There is no hard line in that sense, particularly in areas like transgenderism where suicide is extremely common (unsurprisingly, as many see their lives as being ruined at birth). The transition is more something to strive for and live for in the long term as opposed to a true change as a perfect Sexual Reassignment is not possible today.

I do see great potential in VR for those truely at odds with their bodies, especially if tactile sensation reproduction becomes a reality. The ability to be in your ideal body, even if for a short while, can greatly benefit this sort of people, at least until medicine advances far enough to present a satisfactory permanent option. Though care would need to be taken so people don't live in VR indefinitely.

 

[JulesMaximus]

I question the entire practice quite frankly. You're never going to be transformed into what your idea of who you should be... just seems like an effort in futility quite frankly. Bruce Jenner doesn't really look or sound like a woman and he has managed to go through 60+ years of his life as a man so why now? I don't get it.