At what speed do gravity ripples travel through spacetime ?

May 11, 2008
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I kind of assumed it was at c. But is this actually the case ? I kind of doubt it.
It must be in the text somewhere. But i fail to grasp it.
For the detector to be able to measure it, the speed the gravity ripple has must be lower than the detection speed of the ligo detector.
It has to do something with the wavelength used of the laser light and how it interferes. Can anybody explain to me how i should view this ?

LIGO researchers sensed a wave that stretched space by one part in 1021, making the entire Earth expand and contract by 1/100,000 of a nanometer, about the width of an atomic nucleus.

Would that mean that if the ripple is sinewave shaped, that the wavelength is 1/50,000 of a nanometer ?

What does a gravitiy ripple resemble when looking at it in a graph ?
Is it spike shaped ? Or sine wave shaped ?


http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016...insteins-ripples-spacetime-spotted-first-time

Long ago, deep in space, two massive black holes—the ultrastrong gravitational fields left behind by gigantic stars that collapsed to infinitesimal points—slowly drew together. The stellar ghosts spiraled ever closer, until, about 1.3 billion years ago, they whirled about each other at half the speed of light and finally merged. The collision sent a shudder through the universe: ripples in the fabric of space and time called gravitational waves. Five months ago, they washed past Earth. And, for the first time, physicists detected the waves, fulfilling a 4-decade quest and opening new eyes on the heavens.

Here's the first person to spot those gravitational waves
Gravitational waves, Einstein’s ripples in spacetime, spotted for first time

The discovery marks a triumph for the 1000 physicists with the Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory (LIGO), a pair of gigantic instruments in Hanford, Washington, and Livingston, Louisiana. Rumors of the detection had circulated for months. Today, at a press conference in Washington, D.C., the LIGO team made it official. “We did it!” says David Reitze, a physicist and LIGO executive director at the California Institute of Technology (Caltech) in Pasadena. “All the rumors swirling around out there got most of it right.”

Albert Einstein predicted the existence of gravitational waves 100 years ago, but directly detecting them required mind-boggling technological prowess and a history of hunting. (See a timeline below of the history of the search for gravitational waves.) LIGO researchers sensed a wave that stretched space by one part in 1021, making the entire Earth expand and contract by 1/100,000 of a nanometer, about the width of an atomic nucleus. The observation tests Einstein’s theory of gravity, the general theory of relativity, with unprecedented rigor and provides proof positive that black holes exist. “It will win a Nobel Prize,” says Marc Kamionkowski, a theorist at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Maryland.

LIGO watches for a minuscule stretching of space with what amounts to ultraprecise rulers: two L-shaped contraptions called interferometers with arms 4 kilometers long. Mirrors at the ends of each arm form a long “resonant cavity,” in which laser light of a precise wavelength bounces back and forth, resonating just as sound of a specific pitch rings in an organ pipe. Where the arms meet, the two beams can overlap. If they have traveled different distances along the arms, their waves will wind up out of step and interfere with each other. That will cause some of the light to warble out through an exit called a dark port in synchrony with undulations of the wave.

From the interference, researchers can compare the relative lengths of the two arms to within 1/10,000 the width of a proton—enough sensitivity to see a passing gravitational wave as it stretches the arms by different amounts. To spot such tiny displacements, however, scientists must damp out vibrations such as the rumble of seismic waves, the thrum of traffic, and the crashing of waves on distant coastlines.

On 14 September 2015, at 9:50:45 universal time—4:50 a.m. in Louisiana and 2:50 a.m. in Washington—LIGO’s automated systems detected just such a signal. The oscillation emerged at a frequency of 35 cycles per second, or Hertz, and sped up to 250 Hz before disappearing 0.25 seconds later. The increasing frequency, or chirp, jibes with two massive bodies spiraling into each other. The 0.007-second delay between the signals in Louisiana and Washington is the right timing for a light-speed wave zipping across both detectors.

The signal exceeds the “five-sigma” standard of statistical significance that physicists use to claim a discovery, LIGO researchers report in a paper scheduled to be published in Physical Review Letters to coincide with the press conference. It’s so strong it can be seen in the raw data, says Gabriela González, a physicist at Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge, and spokesperson for the LIGO scientific collaboration. “If you filter the data, the signal is obvious to the eye,” she says.

Comparison with computer simulations reveals that the wave came from two objects 29 and 36 times as massive as the sun spiraling to within 210 kilometers of each other before merging. Only a black hole—which is made of pure gravitational energy and gets its mass through Einstein’s famous equation E=mc2—can pack so much mass into so little space, says Bruce Allen, a LIGO member at the Max Planck Institute for Gravitational Physics in Hanover, Germany. The observation provides the first evidence for black holes that does not depend on watching hot gas or stars swirl around them at far greater distances. “Before, you could argue in principle whether or not black holes exist,” Allen says. “Now you can’t.”

The collision produced an astounding, invisible explosion. Modeling shows that the final black hole totals 62 solar masses—3 solar masses less than the sum of the initial black holes. The missing mass vanished in gravitational radiation—a conversion of mass to energy that makes an atomic bomb look like a spark. “For a tenth of a second [the collision] shines brighter than all of the stars in all the galaxies,” Allen says. “But only in gravitational waves.”
The LIGO facility in Livingston, Louisiana, has a twin in Hanford, Washington.


Other stellar explosions called gamma-ray bursts can also briefly outshine the stars, but the explosive black-hole merger sets a mind-bending record, says Kip Thorne, a gravitational theorist at Caltech who played a leading role in LIGO’s development. “It is by far the most powerful explosion humans have ever detected except for the big bang,” he says.

For 5 months, LIGO physicists struggled to keep a lid on their pupating discovery. Ordinarily, most team members would not have known whether the signal was real. LIGO regularly salts its data readings with secret false signals called “blind injections” to test the equipment and keep researchers on their toes. But on 14 September 2015, that blind injection system was not running. Physicists had only recently completed a 5-year, $205 million upgrade of the machines, and several systems—including the injection system—were still offline as the team wound up a preliminary “engineering run.” As a result, the whole collaboration knew that the observation was likely real. “I was convinced that day,” González says.

Still, LIGO physicists had to rule out every alternative, including the possibility that the reading was a malicious hoax. “We spent about a month looking at the ways that somebody could spoof a signal,” Reitze says, before deciding it was impossible. For González, making the checks “was a heavy responsibility,” she says. “This was the first detection of gravitational waves, so there was no room for a mistake.”

Proving that gravitational waves exist may not be LIGO’s most important legacy, as there has been compelling indirect evidence for them. In 1974, U.S. astronomers Russell Hulse and Joseph Taylor discovered a pair of radio-emitting neutron stars called pulsars orbiting each other. By timing the pulsars, Taylor and colleague Joel Weisberg demonstrated that they are very slowly spiraling toward each other—as they should if they’re radiating gravitational waves.


It is the prospect of the science that might be done with gravitational waves that really excites physicists. For example, says Kamionkowski, the theorist at Johns Hopkins, the first LIGO result shows the power of such radiation to reveal unseen astrophysical objects like the two ill-fated black holes. “This opens a new window on this vast population of stellar remnants that we know are out there but of which we have seen only a tiny fraction,” he says.

The observation also paves the way for testing general relativity as never before, Kamionkowski says. Until now, physicists have studied gravity only in conditions where the force is relatively weak. By studying gravitational waves, they can now explore extreme conditions in which the energy in an object’s gravitational field accounts for most or all of its mass—the realm of strong gravity so far explored by theorists alone.
Rainer Weiss at the New York Science Fair.


With the black hole merger, general relativity has passed the first such test, says Rainer Weiss, a physicist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) in Cambridge, who came up with the original idea for LIGO. “The things you calculate from Einstein’s theory look exactly like the signal,” he says. “To me, that’s a miracle.”

The detection of gravitational waves marks the culmination of a decades-long quest that began in 1972, when Weiss wrote a paper outlining the basic design of LIGO. In 1979, the National Science Foundation funded research and development work at both MIT and Caltech, and LIGO construction began in 1994. The $272 million instruments started taking data in 2001, although it was not until the upgrade that physicists expected a signal.

If LIGO’s discovery merits a Nobel Prize, who should receive it? Scientists say Weiss is a shoo-in, but he demurs. “I don’t like to think of it,” he says. “If it wins a Nobel Prize, it shouldn’t be for the detection of gravitational waves. Hulse and Taylor did that.” Many researchers say other worthy recipients would include Ronald Drever, the first director of the project at Caltech who made key contributions to LIGO’s design, and Thorne, the Caltech theorist who championed the project. Thorne also objects. “The people who really deserve the credit are the experimenters who pulled this off, starting with Rai and Ron,” he says.

Meanwhile, other detections may come quickly. LIGO researchers are still analyzing data from their first observing run with their upgraded detectors, which ended 12 January, and they plan to start taking data again in July. A team in Italy hopes to turn on its rebuilt VIRGO detector—an interferometer with 3-kilometer arms—later this year. Physicists eagerly await the next wave.
 
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http://phys.org/news/2016-04-ligo-background-noise-due-gravity.html

More news :

(Phys.org)—The research team working with the LIGO project has proposed that the data gleaned from the discovery of gravity waves last year allows for calculating the likely level of cosmic background noise due to gravitational waves, and that it is much greater than previous models have suggested. In their paper published in Physical Review Letters, researchers with the LIGO Scientific Collaboration along with a companion group from the Virgo Collaboration, describe their reasoning behind their estimates and why they believe they will be able to offer more support for their theory within just a few years.

Prior to the landmark experiments that led to the detection of gravitational waves, researchers believed that there was likely a very nearly constant stream of background gravitational noise moving through the cosmos, generated by black holes and neutron stars merging, but had lacked any physical data that might allow them to estimate how much background noise might exist. With the detection of the gravitational waves that resulted from the merger of two binary black holes, the researchers suddenly found themselves with actual concrete data, which they have now used as a basis for calculating the likely amount of gravitational wave noise constantly bombarding our planet.

To make predictions based on data from just one event, the team started with the assumption that the event that was measured was not one that was out of the ordinary—that allowed for making energy density estimates for all possible black hole binaries, based on the energy density of the black holes involved in the merger that was observed—and that in turn allowed for calculating estimates of the amount of gravitational radiation that would occur due to black holes merging. Next, they used the masses of the black holes that were observed to merge to calculate the likely true distribution regarding the number of black hole binaries in existence—this was possible because they placed the observed merger black holes in the middle of a bell curve. Doing so, the team reports, indicated that there are likely 20 times as many black hole binaries out there as has been estimated, which suggests that there is likely 10 times as much gravitational noise than has been suspected.

The team acknowledges that because their results are based on a data from just one event, their conclusions could be wrong, but, if they are right, they note, they should be able to detect them within just the next five years or so as the LIGO and Virgo detectors grow to full strength.
 
May 11, 2008
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I guess it is my lack of understanding how the ligo dtector works. If the ripple moves at lightspeed and the i know the wavelength, i should be able to calculate how long the time would be that laserlight shines on the detector, yes ?
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
I guess it is my lack of understanding how the ligo dtector works. If the ripple moves at lightspeed and the i know the wavelength, i should be able to calculate how long the time would be that laserlight shines on the detector, yes ?

Gravitational waves stretch space and mass by a very tiny amount and then it returns to normal very quickly. The expansion effects the laser light which is what they detected.

At least that is how I understand it.
 

drinkmorejava

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2004
3,567
7
81
Gravitational waves stretch space and mass by a very tiny amount and then it returns to normal very quickly. The expansion effects the laser light which is what they detected.

At least that is how I understand it.

If you know the wavelength and speed, you can calculate the frequency, v=c/h. But there is no way this is some sort of nice sign wave, so calculating the frequency like that is pretty meaningless.

They're actually measuring the effect by looking at the interference pattern caused when the two arms of the beam recombine. This is much more sensitive than trying to measure each one individually.

At the basic level, they're using a Ring Laser Gyro: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_laser_gyroscope

Keep in mind that the output is pretty meaningless without complicated models behind it. Just think how drastically the output will change depending if the gravitational source is directly in line with one of the arms vs tangent...then add another another dimension, and then not really know what the signal should look like.
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,564
2,939
136
Gravitational waves stretch space and mass by a very tiny amount and then it returns to normal very quickly. The expansion effects the laser light which is what they detected.

At least that is how I understand it.
That's my understanding as well. Just to elaborate a bit though, the laser light goes through a beam splitter and gets directed to 2 different mirrors. The paths are perpendicular/orthogonal.

On the way back, the light again passes through the splitter and goes to a photodetector.

Any change to the path of the light, like say a passing gravity wave, will create a characteristic interference pattern at the detector.



http://www.renishaw.com/en/interferometry-explained--7854
 

PowerEngineer

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2001
3,557
734
136
Yes, the expectation has been that gravity waves travel at the speed of light and I recall reading somewhere that the LIGO event seems to confirm this.

My understanding is that the sinusoidal characteristic of the event was a result of the masses of the two black holes along with their distance and spatial orientation as they spiraled in to a merger.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,505
27,801
136
What I think is cool is that the gravitational waves have frequencies in the human audible range so if the signal is converted to sound, we can listen to them without frequency adjustment. We just need to add a laser interferometer to Google Glass and we could all be grooving to gravitational waves.
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,564
2,939
136
I'm waiting to read something about how rigid space-time has to be such that we need 2 black holes colliding to even detect these waves.

General relativity and quantum mechanics are basically at odds in terms of the micro-structure of space with GR seeing it as smooth and QM seeing it as lumpy. This seems to support that it's smooth but it still has to be reconciled with qm.
 

PlasmaBomb

Lifer
Nov 19, 2004
11,815
2
81
The 0.007-second delay between the signals in Louisiana and Washington is the right timing for a light-speed wave zipping across both detectors.
*

They seem pretty confident they've detected a gravity wave and it appears to have been travelling at c.

*taken from Williams wall of text
 

Charmonium

Diamond Member
May 15, 2015
9,564
2,939
136
If gravity waves travel at the speed of light, does that imply that gravity itself travels at 'c.' So for example, let's say that you could create a black hole from the void, instantaneously. How long would it take for the gravity of the black hole to be felt at say 1 light year?

It might be a stupid question since at present, we can't create a gravitational field w/o the associated mass. But if we could, how long would it take to feel the effect of the field?
 

flexy

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
8,464
155
106
Excuse my stupid question.

At what OTHER speed but c would they travel?

How and why would they travel less than c....or how would they travel more than c? Isn't c the only, logical assumption?
 

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,137
382
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I guess it is my lack of understanding how the ligo dtector works. If the ripple moves at lightspeed and the i know the wavelength, i should be able to calculate how long the time would be that laserlight shines on the detector, yes ?

Your question doesn't make sense so I'll just explain in laymans terms how it works.

LIGO lasers create an interference pattern similar to the famous Michelson Interferometer. Gravity waves warp spacetime and that is what is detected by the interferometer.

Also yes gravity waves propagate at c.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,599
19
81
Excuse my stupid question.

At what OTHER speed but c would they travel?

How and why would they travel less than c....or how would they travel more than c? Isn't c the only, logical assumption?
Edit: See post# 26.

They're a ripple in spacetime itself, so maybe they wouldn't be bound by the same physical rules as things we're used to working with.
Everything else moves through the medium of spacetime; the waves seem more like they're a motion of the medium itself.

I wouldn't consider that to be likely, but it's just a thought.
 
Last edited:
May 11, 2008
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Your question doesn't make sense so I'll just explain in laymans terms how it works.

LIGO lasers create an interference pattern similar to the famous Michelson Interferometer. Gravity waves warp spacetime and that is what is detected by the interferometer.

Also yes gravity waves propagate at c.

To all :

I fully understand that when the laserlight is bend in the 3km L form, the travel time is longer and the laser beams do not cancel each other out because of the phase shift.
I understand how that works with interference, it is just that when i try to visualize it, i fail. I can assume gravity ripple moves at c, but what would the wavelength of the ripple be ? Because this determines the time the ripple is visible as an intereference pattern in the detector. It is that time, that i am interested in and how tiny the gravity ripple can be in wavelength before the detector is able to detect it. Something to wonder about.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,505
27,801
136
To all :

I fully understand that when the laserlight is bend in the 3km L form, the travel time is longer and the laser beams do not cancel each other out because of the phase shift.
I understand how that works with interference, it is just that when i try to visualize it, i fail. I can assume gravity ripple moves at c, but what would the wavelength of the ripple be ? Because this determines the time the ripple is visible as an intereference pattern in the detector. It is that time, that i am interested in and how tiny the gravity ripple can be in wavelength before the detector is able to detect it. Something to wonder about.

Here's a chart from wiki that gives the frequency range for various gravitational wave generators. According to a discussion on Science Friday, the frequencies detected so far were within the human auditory range so ~20Hz to 20kHz. Wavelength = c/frequency.
 
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