AT World of Warcraft Thread (Mists, Where do you play, General BS and all that)

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Rebel_L

Senior member
Nov 9, 2009
451
63
91
LFR impacts heroics, but not as yiu say. Doesn't lower the heroics pool, but "requires" those raiders to do LFR to increase their RNG for loot upgrades as they attempt the heroic content. This is the main reason the tier and trinkets removed from LFR.

Your are right that heroic folks running lfr for upgrades also affects the amount of time for heroics, but I think you take the other impact too lightly. I would argue that for most people the amount of time they play in the average week is relatively static (it would actually be interesting to see blizzards data on peoples play times and how it corresponds to release of new patches and expansions) lfr release doesn't change that person A only has 5 hours of free play time in a week. All it can really impact is what amount of time is spent doing lfr instead of other things inside the game. While there is of course people who do not spend their entire free time budget playing wow and could shift extra time to the game if they enjoyed it more the people that I played with tended to not have huge shifts in amount of play time due to in game happenings but rather to external factors (exams, work, etc.)
 

Gryz

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2010
1,551
204
106
By the way, your story either didn't happened in vanilla as you're implying or you're misremembering the level. Mounts were 40+ in vanilla.
You are correct.
I was typing a lot, so I misremembered the exact level. It was lvl45.
I deleted my WoW folder with all my screenshots at one point. The screenshots from this trips are the only screenshots from vanilla that I have left.


What I don't understand is why you appear to believe that removing flight will cause people to get out more.
They might not go out more. But they probably don't go out much today. But if people go out, I am sure it will help them have the feeling they are in a fantastic world in a fantasy game. WoW once started as a fantasy game. That aspect has been snowed under over the years.

"Hey, I do the grind, here's my proof. Do you have proof you do the grind, or were you just hypocritically blowing smoke to complain about something?"

The reason why I find it irrelevant for this discussion is as follows.
The last 5 years everybody seems to agree that the last current tier of heroic raiding is hard. (Oh, and high-rating arenas too, for pvp-players). And everything else is easy. Leveling, questing, battle-grounds, heroic dungeons, getting rep, getting half-decent gear, everything. Everything that is easy is just a matter of time. And everything that requires time is a grind. And grinding is bad.

Result ?
People have no respect for any form of content besides heroic raiding. They don't seem enjoy anything that is deemed easy, is deemed a grind. They constantly call out for nerfs. For *everything*. Even for such a ridiculous thing as making your own poisons. I can imagine hunters getting sick of ammo, because they needed a full bag of ammo. And ammo costed a non-insignificant amount of gold. Poisons were just fluff. There was absolutely zero reason to change the system. The same is happening with so many other aspects of the game. All fluff is removed. All color is removed. All flavour is removed. What remains will be a bare-bones pale boring click-fest.

Have you ever realized what the difference is between a fully-zoomed out camera, and a "over-the-shoulder" camerea ? (Like in the Witcher). In Vanilla I played with a over-shoulder camera. And the world felt much more real to me. Nowadays, I play with a zoomed out camera. Because it is more efficient. I try to zoom in when soloing or questing. But for raiding, and also flying, zooming out further is unavoidable. I think the whole (raiding) game is now assuming you are zoomed out to the max. It makes things more efficient. But I think it makes it also less fun. Unless an improved result is the only thing you care about. I find that a shame.

maybe grab a heroic boa or two before the expansion
For leveling your characters from 90 to a 100, I guess ? I see a lot of people who want the Garrosh-heirlooms for that reason. But why rush your leveling ? It's a once in a lifetime experience. When I came back to Pandaria, I froze my xp at lvl85. I spend 2 weeks in Pandaria at 85, exploring the whole world, getting my professions maxed, fishing maxed, etc. Without flying. That was great fun. I even killed every blue rare in every area as level-85 in my Cata-gear. (Except the 8 in the Vale of Eternal Blossoms. Level-91 blues were too high. Too many glancing blows). When I tell people that, they react as if I am the most stupid person they ever met in WoW.

I deleted WoW and my chars at the end of vanilla. Came back in TBC 5 months after release. I only had a naked lvl60 rogue, a naked lvl40 warrior, and 100g a friend gave me. I bought 2 green daggers from the AH. Put poisons on. And when to Hellfire Peninsula. Leveled all the way from naked to 70. That was also an awesome experience.

I played WLK a few months after release too. I used my 8/8 Devout set. Yep, that was the level-60 T0 priest set. I had gathered one during TBC. Spirit and intellect. With my BT/MH trinkets and rings, and my Season 3 swords. No problem to level from 70 to 80 with that gear at all. If you know how to play a rogue (stunlock=control=no incoming dmg).

If I play WoD, I will probably do it with some crazy gear. I'm thinking of using my 2 warglaives (if the 2nd one will drop). Maybe with an old set or something. Warglaives with 8 pieces of some T0 set is probably too weak.

I try to enjoy the ride. Not just the destination. I will make sure I get there. But it doesn't need to be as quick as possible at all costs.

No leaving for greener pastures.
Totally unrelated to the discussion. But I understand exactly what you are saying. Cross-realm raiding is awesome. The "new" lockout system is awesome. Without it, I would not have raided this expansion. I have no idea why Blizzard insists on making Mythic raiding non-cross-realm. And keeping the old id-based lockout system. (If it wasn't for the id-based lockouts, I would probably have raided a few times with my guild as backup. No chance now).

I would imagine you like the RP part of MMORPG more than most.
Probably. But that is because I realize I like it. Because I try to understand what attracts me to games like WoW. Not the hamster-threadmill. Not the numbers-game. If people only focus on "gimme gimme gimme, how do I get X as quickly as possible", then why are people playing this game ? If they truly wanna achieve something, they should go study medicine or get a PhD.

This has little to nothing to do with convenience and a lot to do with the combination of having a 10 year old game and a general shift in gamers away from MMOs.
That change happened because of something. I think no company has produced a really good MMO yet. Besides WoW. Every new MMO I have played, there were some obvious and huge blunders. GW2 had a beautiful world, but the PvE-gameplay was just retarted. Vanguard was a terrible mess in many ways. Tera was nice, but the endgame was terrible too. For some reason it seems no game-company truly understands what is needed to make the best MMO. Blizzard does a decent job, but sometimes they don't seem to understand their own game even ! I am amazed.

If Blizzard had done a better game during the last 5 years, there would be a lot more people playing WoW. I can write pages and pages full of what went wrong. (Reference: it started with the Trial of the Crusader patch in August 2009).

Anyway, Blizzard finally seems to understand that flying is actually destroying value in their product. And they seem quite dedicated to not cave in this time.

On the other hand, I have the suspicion that WoD is made by the same team that made Cataclysm. And to be honest, that means I have very low expectations for WoD.
 

Sixguns

Platinum Member
May 22, 2011
2,258
2
81
Get off your high horse Gryz. You probably have a hard on for the neutral lvl 90 monk and all that hard work to lvl that way. Just because you like the game a certain way doesn't mean its best. I think the changes they have made in the past few years has made the game better.
 

Gryz

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2010
1,551
204
106
No, I am not the type that likes the unbelievable long grinds. But I don't like the quick quick quick gameplay either. I don't have the Insane in the Membrane achievement, and I have never even contemplated getting it. I am not a masochist.

It's a matter of gameplay. Remember (heroic) dungeons in vanilla and TBC ? I would talk to friends or guildies on a forum during the afternoon, we would make a plan to do a particular dungeon in the evening. At 20:00 or 21:00 we would spend 1.5 or 2+ hours running one dungeon. On Friday or Saturday night we would maybe do a 2nd dungeon. You probably didn't get much loot, you didn't get any rep, you didn't get justice or valor points. But it was a memorable event. Nowadays you run 10 heroics back-to-back, in almost the same time (2-3 hours). And the experience is completely forgettable. 5-Man content today is a grind. LFR is a grind. Even though it's quick. If you want to make a game good, you have to make it memorable, and not quick quick quick.

I believe this is true for *all* players. Although a lot of them are probably so focused on max-result-for-minimal-time, that they don't even realize it anymore.

I think the changes they have made in the past few years has made the game better.
A lot of them made the game a lot better. A lot of changes have made the game worse. But I think (and so does Blizzard apparently) the change of no-flying in WoD will make the game better. And that is what we are discussing here.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
GC trolling wow:


Different approaches work for different products, and I don't want to second guess the WoW team. Let's just say that after working on Age of Empires and World of Warcraft for a total of 16 years, it's really refreshing to work on a game where I don't have to worry whether someone's grandmother can pick it up or not.
 

ewdotson

Golden Member
Oct 30, 2011
1,295
1,520
136
That change happened because of something.
My own suspicions are that it has a lot to do with an aging playerbase. When I was in college, it wasn't hard to find time to play Everquest for 8+ hours a day. These days, it's hard to justify the time required for even the more casual experience of WoW. I'll subscribe and play for a while every now and then, but mmos require a lifestyle that's just not sustainable for me as an adult. It's impossible to say this with any certainty, but my own suspicion is that WoW would be even smaller today had they not gone the route they had.
 

cronos

Diamond Member
Nov 7, 2001
9,380
26
101
GC trolling wow:


Different approaches work for different products, and I don't want to second guess the WoW team. Let's just say that after working on Age of Empires and World of Warcraft for a total of 16 years, it's really refreshing to work on a game where I don't have to worry whether someone's grandmother can pick it up or not.

Where did he go to again? Or is it a secret? I haven't been keeping up (and couldn't be bothered to look it up now ).
 

Gryz

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2010
1,551
204
106
Where did he go to again? Or is it a secret? I haven't been keeping up (and couldn't be bothered to look it up now ).
GhostCrawler went to RiotGames. Working on League of Legends.
I happened to read this 5 minutes ago. GC posted yesterday about WoW.
He replies in the 2nd post of the tread.
I don't think there's anything new in that post, but apparently it is news-worthy.
I am still waiting for my pony.

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4801581
 

Gryz

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2010
1,551
204
106
My own suspicions are that it has a lot to do with an aging playerbase.
No. When WoW was released, the average age of players was 29 years already. It only went down over time. I am in a guild where the only rule is: you have to be 25 years or older. Most people are in their thirties or forties. We even have people over fifty. I can guarantee you that age has nothing to do how seriously or fanatically people are playing WoW.

The reason the game changed, is because Blizzard's upper management changed. I just wrote another lengthy post to explain it. But as people will moan about high horses, I will keep it concise.
Blizzard wants to cut cost to a minimum they can get away with. Their development budget is ridiculously low for a company with such a huge revenue. They should have developed easy content, medium content, and hard content. Both in raids, dungeons and questing. In stead, they only develop stuff once, and they tweak it so that everybody can do it. In raiding we got LFR/Flex/Normal/Heroic. But in all other branches of the game, the content is tweaked for the lowest common denominator. Because it allows you to build less content, and cut on budget.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,967
19
81
Do you have a citation for that? (I'm honestly asking - that's not snark.)

According to one of Yee's 2005 studies, 84 percent of "World of Warcraft" players are male, and 16 percent are female. The average player's age is 28, and female players tend to be a few years older than male players. Regardless of their gender, players spend an average of 21 to 22 hours a week playing the game [source: Yee, WoW Demographics]. Of course, these statistics may have shifted since Yee collected his data. You can learn more about Yee's research at The Daedalus Project.

You can google average age of warcraft and see a lot of demographics.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
You can't go back in time. When WoW launched, the MMO world was still new. Some people had played EQ or AC, but not the millions that jumped into WoW.

Those days of wandering around in wide-eyed wonderment at the expanse of the world are gone, and you can't get it back. There have been dozens, if not hundreds of MMOs that came and went in the past 10 years. It's old hat. Yep, it's a big world to wander around in. What else you got?

You can no more go back to the childlike days of vanilla WoW than you can go back to believing in Santa Claus.
 

Malladine

Diamond Member
Mar 31, 2003
4,618
0
71
No. When WoW was released, the average age of players was 29 years already. It only went down over time. I am in a guild where the only rule is: you have to be 25 years or older. Most people are in their thirties or forties. We even have people over fifty. I can guarantee you that age has nothing to do how seriously or fanatically people are playing WoW.

The reason the game changed, is because Blizzard's upper management changed. I just wrote another lengthy post to explain it. But as people will moan about high horses, I will keep it concise.
Blizzard wants to cut cost to a minimum they can get away with. Their development budget is ridiculously low for a company with such a huge revenue. They should have developed easy content, medium content, and hard content. Both in raids, dungeons and questing. In stead, they only develop stuff once, and they tweak it so that everybody can do it. In raiding we got LFR/Flex/Normal/Heroic. But in all other branches of the game, the content is tweaked for the lowest common denominator. Because it allows you to build less content, and cut on budget.

Thanks for the TLDR
And I 100% agree. Outside of raiding the difficulty is, most of the time, laughable. Exceptions being 5 man heroics at the start and heroic scenarios. And of course then there's BGs.
 

Malladine

Diamond Member
Mar 31, 2003
4,618
0
71
Gryz i just went back and read your post from yesterday at 8:46pm and want to say I feel the same way: the grinding, sacrificing flavor for efficiency, etc. The grind/treadmill aspects keep me playing for a while but it's almost always an empty feeling when i'm done playing unless something unexpected happens to knock me off that mindset for a time. I believe ideas from Vanilla still have a place if players want it, and I think more do than they realize it's just the carrot and stick mentality is so damn prevalent. Everyone feels obligated and pressured into playing that way.
 

AznAnarchy99

Lifer
Dec 6, 2004
14,705
117
106
This game can be so annoying sometimes. People doing flex raid with 560+ ilevel requirements? They also ignore the fact that I have the achievements/items from flex 1/2 Basically I need to fully gear myself out in LFR, then gear myself out in flex, so I can do normal?
 

cronos

Diamond Member
Nov 7, 2001
9,380
26
101

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
What I think "you" are missing is that the difficulty in the original game was the leveling process. There was no real difficulty in the 40 man raids (till naxx) other than having to get the 40 people together, and then keep then together consistently enough to gear up.

Then as the game progresses and levels increase, the shift of emphasis goes to the raids and they must reduce time spent in leveling to keep the pool of available bodies for the raiding groups acceptable.

Here we see the raid compesition shift from 40 to 25 then 10 man, and leveling process tweaked including the bulk for an entire expansion effort spent on redoing the original launch content.

There has never been an everything is easy or everything is hard period, they've just adjusted the subsystems as needed to support their design emphasis.
 

Phoenix86

Lifer
May 21, 2003
14,643
9
81
What I think "you" are missing is that the difficulty in the original game was the leveling process. There was no real difficulty in the 40 man raids (till naxx) other than having to get the 40 people together, and then keep then together consistently enough to gear up.
You gloss over that like it wasn't significantly more difficult than leveling up or performing the raid.

Raiding in vanilla was 120% about guild management, 10% raid skill.
 

Peppered

Senior member
Jul 3, 2009
397
0
0
Ok I had to buy the last two expansions to catch up. but I notice that the server was on is a very low population and not sure the guild I was in with my lv 85 druid is still around.
Question 1: what server would you recommend.
Question 2: what dps class are guilds looking for usually.
Question 3: if I roll a lv 90 toon the test server dose that use up my lv 90 slot on the live server

Thanks
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
I thought it was rather clear that getting the 40 was much more difficult than performing the raid content.

And as one that still has a server list that shows all the old alliance classes at level 60, you can't understate the time to level in that era.
 

Phoenix86

Lifer
May 21, 2003
14,643
9
81
You said leveling was hard than raiding, which I disagreed with. Getting 40 people together and staying together (the hardest part of raiding back then) was far hard than leveling.
 
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