ATAV&H/T - Build My Home Theater

[ja1484]

Here's the challenge:

Looking to implement a home theater here in my apartment in the next few months. This setup will primarily be used to watch sports, watch DVDs, play console games, and piss off the people who live below me. I rarely watch regular television. I would like to get as much bang as possible for the buck in the budget ranges I have listed. I may be willing to spend more if something is a killer deal at its pricepoint. Here are the thoughts so far:

TV:
LCD or Plasma, 42-47", 1080p/120hz
Budget: $1500 to $2000
Add'l Info:

My living room is such that getting more than 10ish feet from the screen is going to be almost impossible, thus I'm erring away from the larger screens. So far I have looked at a number of models in stores and really like the picture quality of Samsung and Toshiba panels. Sony seems good too, but priced far higher for no better quality. The LG panels I have looked at seem to have oversaturated color and are generally less crisp than the Samsung and Toshiba units, even after adjusting settings.

I was able to notice a definite difference between 60 and 120hz units, especially in slow pans with a lot of contrast, and would like 120hz.

Sound:
5.1 surround
Budget: $500 to $1500

Preferably with as little wiring as possible. However, I am willing to wire it all up if needed. Are the new wireless units comparable in sound quality to the wired units? I will be using this setup to listen to music as well, so I want something good for not only DVD playback but also music playback. I'm looking for brand suggestions here - in the past I have quite liked Klipsch speakers for my gaming PCs and was considering looking into their home theater stuff.

HT/Gaming PC:
Budget: $2000 to $3000

I plan to anchor all this to an HTPC that should also have enough grunt for PC games if possible. I specifically need suggestions regarding graphics cards with good Blu-Ray/DVD decoding and playback/output, good TV Tuner cards (either built into a graphics solution or separate), and a sound card that will provide good output of both Blu-Ray/DVD sound, gaming sound, and music.

I am familiar with PC Gaming hardware as that has been my bag for the past 15 years or so, but I don't have an in-depth knowledge of where the good mix of HT abilities is found alongside good PC Gaming abilities.

I am willing to build separate HTPC and Gaming PC if that is the smarter move right now - you guys tell me. The plan is for PC gaming to be done on 22 inch monitor, not the HDTV.


That about covers it with my general "wants". You are all now cordially invited to tear apart my ideas, tell me why they won't work, and provide me with your "the way *I* would do it..." suggestions. Gogo AT!

 

[newnameman]

You should really consider going with a bigger display. 47" is very small for a viewing distance of 10 feet. See here and here.

 

[ja1484]

Originally posted by: newnameman
You should really consider going with a bigger display. 47" is very small for a viewing distance of 10 feet. See here and here.

I'm a bit cynical about that. In my personal experience getting closer than about two screen widths just results in imperfections being more noticable.

Nevertheless, I am shopping things up to 52" within my budget.

 

[newnameman]

That just means you need better sources. DVD would look ugly, but for Blu-ray the bigger screen the better.

 

[s44]

1. At 10' you want 50"+.
2. Wireless sucks, esp. at that budget.
3. You should spend a lot more on the sound (ideally, $500 or more would go to the subwoofer alone) and less on the PC. Specifics depend on room size.
4. Any ATI 4000 series card will give you full HDMI sound. No sound card needed.

edit: I don't necessarily mean spend a lot more than $1500, but I do think a good rule of thumb is about the same for sound as for the TV.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

I would agree that you want a bigger screen at that viewing distance.

One of the options I would be looking at in your pricerange would be the Pioneer Plasmas.
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2294636&enterthread=y

In most cases I think people get their nice new TV home and it looks huge but after a few weeks they get used to it and it either looks just right or it looks small and they wish they went bigger.


For the sound portion, at the $500 end of your budget, you're looking at mediocre "Home Theater in a Box" (HTIB) units, or possibly being able to put something together on your own with very basic components. Music especially will be lacking in a setup like this.

Have a look at the sticky thread for some starter info on sound systems. I probably have to go through all the links again to update, but at least the brand information there could give you a starting point. If you're willing to take the time to do it, going out an auditioning stuff in stores would be beneficial to you, even if you don't end up buying something retail.

With the computer speaker scene being so limited, Logitech and Klipsch are often the "high end" options that people have heard before. Klipsch has kind of a distinct sound that's not appealing for everyone. They do make a good set of computer speakers vs. the competition, but in the "real" speaker world, the competition is a lot tighter.

I would recommend getting at least the subwoofer from an online source. There are some great bang for the buck companies that specialize in subwoofers. Elemental Designs, SVS, HSU, and Epik are some great options for you that should blow away the retail competition in the $300+ pricerange. What's your room size? That should help you figure out how much sub you need to blow yourself... and your neighbors... away.

As for wireless capability, even "wireless" speakers still need to be hooked up to amplification. In most 5.1 setups, your wiring is going to be limited to the front of the room anyway. The wires that typically become unsightly are the ones to the surround speakers and perhaps the subwoofer if you can't find a good place for it up front.

If you were to get "wireless" surround speakers, you'd still have to get them hooked up to amplification at their locations. This might involve a transmitting unit at the front of the room and a receiving unit with amplification that needs to be plugged into a wall outlet and then running speaker wire to the surround speakers to the left / right of the room. Honestly, if you can just run speaker wires along the edges of the walls, it shouldn't be too ugly and it would be simpler and less costly.

For the gaming PC, I would highly recommend rethinking your budget. $2000-$3000 on a computer is too much in my opinion. If you're going to be gaming at a typical 22" monitor resolution of 1680x1050, and blu-ray playback is the other big task, then you don't need to spend that much.

I haven't been keeping up with the latest and greatest for blu-ray playback via PC since I decided I wanted a dedicated player to do that rather than deal with the issues of getting PC playback to work correctly. (I ended up with a PS3 for $212, although now there are some great alternatives in the sub $300 range that might even be a better choice).

A great gaming computer + monitor can be put together for under $1000, and adding in TV tuner cards and such should be a relatively inexpensive addition.
If bang for the buck really is the priority, I would not be considering $3000 on the computer. That extra $1000-$2000 would go farther (and be a more lasting investment) in either the display or the sound system.
Two years from now, you'd be kicking yourself for spending $500 on a videocard that's now being outperformed by a $100 card, but a great sound system would still be great.

 

[ja1484]

Ah Jello, I knew you'd come through.

The rest of you pay attention - THAT is how you write a response to this thread.

Regarding the budget: I'm willing to shift dollars around. I haven't priced a PC out lately but the $2000 to $3000 is just a "safe" number. If it would be better invested in the TV or the sound system (which it sounds more and more like sound is the way to go), then I'll put it there.

Jello - please provide suggestions regarding the higher end of the sound budget ($1500 -$2000). I went low on the low end in case there happens to be some killer set out there for cheap. Doesn't seem to be the case. Room size is 15x15 with a half wall divider from the kitchen.

This thread is essentially me starting the research process, so that's exactly the kind of response I'm looking for - where you'd put the money and *why*.

Originally posted by: s44
1. At 10' you want 50"+.

Noted, and as mentioned, I'm pricing those displays as well.,

2. Wireless sucks, esp. at that budget.

That was my suspicion.

3. You should spend a lot more on the sound (ideally, $500 or more would go to the subwoofer alone) and less on the PC. Specifics depend on room size.

Noted. I had allowed extra dollars for the PC under the assumption I'd need some additional components to really get the HT experience to work the way I wanted. I see now that's not likely to be the case.

Room size is 15'x15', but the acoustics will be a little unusual as there's only a half-wall between the living room and kitchen in my apt.

4. Any ATI 4000 series card will give you full HDMI sound. No sound card needed.

Good to know, however:

a) Will the output be comparable to a dedicated sound card?
b) These new ATi cards support playback from non-video sources?

edit: I don't necessarily mean spend a lot more than $1500, but I do think a good rule of thumb is about the same for sound as for the TV.

Budget is flexible, within reason. The option I'm liking the most right now is putting $2000ish into the speakers/receiver and wiring it all up myself.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

For the sound portion of things, I think roughly a 2:1:1 ratio of speaker:receiver:sub spending is a good starting point.

On $1600, that would mean perhaps $800 5.0 speakers, $400 receiver, $400 sub.

There are a lot of good receiver options out there in the $400 bracket.
For example, the Onkyo 607 came out lately and with the 25% off code AFLAUD25, it's $374 at 6ave
http://www.6ave.com/shop/Product.aspx?sku=ONKTXSR607

I haven't looked extensively at the $400-$500 range though to know which one is really the best option. (HK, Denon, Yamaha, etc.)

For subwoofer, the $400-ish options from any of those manufacturers mentioned above should be pretty solid in a 15'x15' room. It sounds like there's openings to other areas though?
SVS PB10
http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-10nsd.cfm
HSU VTF-1
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-1.html
ED has three subs below $400
http://www.edesignaudio.com/index.php?cPath=2_41
Of course if you spend a little more, there's always something better too

There are a ton of speaker choices out there. This is far less straightforward for picking out something that will suit you online. Do you have any size requirements? A specific look you're going for? This may help you narrow your search. By the way, you don't really need to worry about matching brands for sub & speakers. What IS important is making sure at least the front three speakers are from the same company and the same model line. With surround speakers it's less important, and with the sub it doesn't matter.

 

[ja1484]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
There are a ton of speaker choices out there. This is far less straightforward for picking out something that will suit you online. Do you have any size requirements? A specific look you're going for? This may help you narrow your search. By the way, you don't really need to worry about matching brands for sub & speakers. What IS important is making sure at least the front three speakers are from the same company and the same model line. With surround speakers it's less important, and with the sub it doesn't matter.

Size requirements really don't exist. I just moved to a new apartment and ditched some old furniture that had had it. I have an essentially bare living room, and no wife to argue with. Go hog wild with your suggestions.

The furniture scheme I'm planning for this room will allow me to hide substantial amounts of hardware/wires behind the entertainment center if needed. Color wise, I see most manufacturers going with black for speaker casing, which is always a safe bet.

 

[RupTheKid]

ja1484, can we get a rough photo or drawing of the room layout?

Anyway, to get you started, I'd wholeheartedly recommend picking up a 50" Pioneer KURO for 2K shipped or less, while you can still get them. The huge benefit of a bit of a larger screen is being able to use 1080p desktop resolution from 6 ft away...something that just isn't legible with a 42 or even 47.

Oh, and you may want to reallocate / expand your budget to include some A/V furniture and a universal remote. Having tidy wires, a clean layout, and good usability are all worthwhile endeavors.

Finally, you didn't mention anything about HD cable source. Who are you going with? I only ask because then you may be able to use the supplied remote for your HD remote and save some cash.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: ja1484

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
There are a ton of speaker choices out there. This is far less straightforward for picking out something that will suit you online. Do you have any size requirements? A specific look you're going for? This may help you narrow your search. By the way, you don't really need to worry about matching brands for sub & speakers. What IS important is making sure at least the front three speakers are from the same company and the same model line. With surround speakers it's less important, and with the sub it doesn't matter.

Size requirements really don't exist. I just moved to a new apartment and ditched some old furniture that had had it. I have an essentially bare living room, and no wife to argue with. Go hog wild with your suggestions.

The furniture scheme I'm planning for this room will allow me to hide substantial amounts of hardware/wires behind the entertainment center if needed. Color wise, I see most manufacturers going with black for speaker casing, which is always a safe bet.

Yeah, a lot of the low to medium priced options come in black by default with some having upgrades available for different veneers.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

some good advice being dished out in this thread.

my two cents:
i'm using a similar setup as what you describe. i'm currently running a silverstone lc-20m with a q9300 and a pair of passive gigabyte 9600gt's, feeding a 50" panny.

silverstone boxes, lian li pc-c33, or similar would be good choices.
don't go for SLI/crossfire. it works out for me (passive cooling plus exceptional scaling of the 9600gt) but if i were to do it today, i would just get a single quiet card and save myself a lot of headaches.
if you choose an inexpensive receiver, i think it's worth using a sound card with DDL encoding for 3d games, although it's useless for video playback.
logitech di novo edge - great keyboard, not used for games
logitech mx revolution (not the bluetooth version) - great mouse, max range only about 6-9 feet, terrible for games.
razer lycosa - great for games, terrible for typing
razer lachesis - great for games, terrible for anything else

 

[ja1484]

Originally posted by: RupTheKid
ja1484, can we get a rough photo or drawing of the room layout?

Only because I love you all this much:

|----------|

I went to the extensive effort of measuring everything and whipping up a diagram. The line in red is the half-height divider between the living room and kitchen. It is mid-torso height on me so....4 feet high? ish?

The plan is to put the display on the northern wall, the couch against the wall opposite. There would be some space left behind the display area which I intend to use to hide messy wiring and squirrel the PC.

Oh, and you may want to reallocate / expand your budget to include some A/V furniture and a universal remote. Having tidy wires, a clean layout, and good usability are all worthwhile endeavors.

Yeah, this is why I'm leaning towards doing the wiring myself. As for the furniture, that's already underway.

Finally, you didn't mention anything about HD cable source. Who are you going with? I only ask because then you may be able to use the supplied remote for your HD remote and save some cash.

Time Warner HD cable, primarily for sports.

 

[RupTheKid]

Awesome. There's something called WireMold they sell at Home Depot (in the electrical or low-voltage section)...probably won't cost more than $50 for the size of your room. It comes in white and almond colored....you run it right along your base or crown molding, and it hides wires and looks super-clean. This will take care of tidying all the speaker wires.

The Time Warner remotes are made by Universal Remote, and should work fine for basic input switching and volume control. Are we mounting surrounds on the wall?

I'd probably invest more money on your center channel and left and right mains. If you're in an apartment and are trying to avoid angry neighbors you may want to invest in better full-range mains and forgo the subwoofer...it will make music sound infinitely better as well. It's just important to make sure you pick the right receiver that will reroute LFE signals to your mains then.

 

[RupTheKid]

Also, with regards to having two dedicated personal computers; I think it depends on what extent your HTPC will function. If the HTPC is going to be on 24/7 for use with things like a Slingbox, TiVo on the PC, music server, etc...then I think you should absolutely have two separate rigs. A high powered PC is quite loud, and you will drive yourself crazy trying to watch a movie with some crazy fans on all the time. Sacrificing noise to be 25-28dB for a gaming PC can get really expensive and/or impractical.

As an industry professional, we've installed hundreds of Mac Mini's solely for the purpose of working as HTPC's. It's also amazing to be able to click a button and pull out a Logitech DiNovo Edge or DiNovo mini and surt the internet, play music, or watch streaming video from the web. If you're Mac averse, you can build your own Windows box that is similarly quiet and inexpensive. This way you only need to turn on your gaming PC when you're up for serious sessions...you will save a ton on your energy bill as well.

 

[ja1484]

I am absolutely getting a subwoofer. That's not negotiable in my book. My neighbors will just have to live with it. I actively avoid being noisy between before 9AM or after 9PM, so they can live with whatever I can dish out in between those hours, which frankly they should be doing shit anyway.

 

[s44]

This is a nice medium-sized room to play with.

I would suggest the SVS PB-10 sub, or the slightly more expensive (a touch over $600 shipped) VTF-2 sub from Hsu (the VTF-1 doesn't have the sub-25hz low extension to really scare the neighbors ). Both will be great for movies, the Hsu somewhat more refined with music.

For a reciever, the Onkyo 607 isn't a bad deal... But honestly, if you can scrape up $700, you should see if you can get in at the very end of the Pioneer Elite SC-05 clearance. (There are still some units on Videogon, not sure if those are the ones with manuf. warranties. You could call that place in Wisconsin YoYo posted on a previous thread about this.) That is just *such* a good deal, and there aren't any comparable super-bargains right now below that level. Wait... I take it back. $600 Onkyo 805 (refurb). This is an awesome piece of electronics too (top-end Audyssey room correction, 120W+ per channel real continuous output), and is actually better (better amp, better Audyssey) than its successor the 806.

Speakers... That's a whoooooooole long thread. I guess if you're in an apt you won't want to mess around with in-walls or heavy on-walls, though?

 

[ja1484]

Originally posted by: RupTheKid
Also, with regards to having two dedicated personal computers; I think it depends on what extent your HTPC will function. If the HTPC is going to be on 24/7 for use with things like a Slingbox, TiVo on the PC, music server, etc...then I think you should absolutely have two separate rigs. A high powered PC is quite loud, and you will drive yourself crazy trying to watch a movie with some crazy fans on all the time. Sacrificing noise to be 25-28dB for a gaming PC can get really expensive and/or impractical.

I'm actually leaning that way as well, just because I've already got my case and peripherals for a gaming PC in place. It just needs new guts. Right now I'm still on an Nforce 4 SLI socket 939 platform that I originally built in 2004 (!) - with a few memory upgrades, a new graphics card, and an overclocked Athlon 64 x2 it still plays pretty much everything maxed out right now. Even Crysis wasn't too much trouble at high settings. All told, I'd say I've only put about $2000 into it over the past 4.5 years, and I think I'll probably get another year out of it - then it's time for a ground-up rebuild on a new platform.

As an industry professional, we've installed hundreds of Mac Mini's solely for the purpose of working as HTPC's. It's also amazing to be able to click a button and pull out a Logitech DiNovo Edge or DiNovo mini and surt the internet, play music, or watch streaming video from the web. If you're Mac averse, you can build your own Windows box that is similarly quiet and inexpensive. This way you only need to turn on your gaming PC when you're up for serious sessions...you will save a ton on your energy bill as well.

I am mac averse for the simple reason of being able to field repair my PCs. Having a hardware failure remedied by a ten minute swap-job has saved me so much hassle during the years. Keeps things up and running while the replacement part ships in.

Originally posted by: s44
This is a nice medium-sized room to play with.

Go crazy. I want any and all suggestions. I'm not saying I'm going to act on everything, but I want this thread to sort of be a think tank for ideas to ferment over the next few weeks. Then I'm gonna start buying and update as I go. We're gonna build this thing together fellas.

:group hug:

I would suggest the SVS PB-10 sub, or the slightly more expensive (a touch over $600 shipped) VTF-2 sub from Hsu (the VTF-1 doesn't have the sub-25hz low extension to really scare the neighbors ). Both will be great for movies, the Hsu somewhat more refined with music.

For a reciever, the Onkyo 607 isn't a bad deal... But honestly, if you can scrape up $700, you should see if you can get in at the very end of the Pioneer Elite SC-05 clearance. (There are still some units on Videogon, not sure if those are the ones with manuf. warranties. You could call that place in Wisconsin YoYo posted on a previous thread about this.) That is just *such* a good deal, and there aren't any comparable super-bargains right now below that level. Wait... I take it back. $600 Onkyo 805 (refurb). This is an awesome piece of electronics too (top-end Audyssey room correction, 120W+ per channel real continuous output), and is actually better (better amp, better Audyssey) than its successor the 806.

I can only hope these deals are still running in the near future. I'm still doing my homework so to speak.

Speakers... That's a whoooooooole long thread. I guess if you're in an apt you won't want to mess around with in-walls or heavy on-walls, though?

Nah, floorstanding is my leading candidate right now.


Thanks for all the replies so far guys. Very helpful. Glad everyone's enjoying themselves.

 

[s44]

You could do worse than 3 pairs of KEF iQ3 bookshelves (for 6.1). Note that this is the end of a clearance, soon there will only be the double-digit iQ models for more $.

Alternately, 2 pairs of the iQ3 (L+R, center, back) and one of the iQ1 (surrounds). Alternately, 1 pair of the iQ7 floorstander (open box or new, free shipping), 1 pair of the iQ3 (center, back), and 1 pair of the iQ1 (surrounds). Or 1 pair of the smaller iQ5 floorstander (open box or new) and 2 of the iQ1...

Note that there *is* a KEF iQ center channel, but the only one that's left is small (5.25") and won't match either the iQ3 or iQ7 (it will match the 1 or 5), and not hugely cost-effective anyway.

 

[s44]

Another close-out option: 4 of the NHT Classic Two plus one of the center.

Another deal: 3 pairs of the cherry Energy RC-10 (pre-order). Note that you save a tiny bit if you substitute 2 cherry RC minis as surrounds, and actually have to pay more for a single RCLCR (compared to a pair of RC-10s for center and rear 6.1).

Another, less conventional deal: 5 of the Mirage OS3 (large omnipolar satellites), or 4 plus a center.

Honestly, one could go on for ages.

Oh yeah, you could definitely do worse than just getting the Hsu package deal.

 

[RupTheKid]

Well if it's a sub you want, it's a sub you should get . I'd recommend the SVS PC25-31...you can pick one up used to certainly fit in your budget (disclaimer: my company is a retailer for SVS).

Are you opposed to purchasing used? I think speakers are one of the safest purchases to buy pre-owned...they simply last forever. The only real risk is from the shipper packaging poorly.

Anyway, if you are interested in pre-owned, I'd strongly, strongly advise you to look at the NHT A/V series. It's a bit earlier of a series (about 5-7) years old...NHT made a few models for mains (VT 1.2, VT 1.4, VT 2, VT 2.4) that are phoenomenal. And in all honesty, you may not even need a sub with the larger towers. You should be able to get a pair of mains for $500-750 shipped, and then the matching VS series surrounds (VS1, VS1.2a, VS2) for under $150 a piece. These speakers kick major ass...I'd liken them as a step up on quality of the current Rocket 850's, which are certainly no slouch at all.

If you wanna go new you still certainly have several options as well, but for the speakers anyway I'd vote preowned or demos with my dollars.

 

[RupTheKid]

As far as receivers go, I wouldn't mess with anything that's not a Denon, Onkyo, or Integra...certainly in the $400-800 price range. I prefer the Denon CI (custom installation) series for it's extraordinary flexibility, but Onkyo's Integra line is very comparable. While I know Pioneer Elite has a great rep, in my experience the Denon and Onkyo have steller reliability. (In this case we rep Denon).

EDIT: One exception would be the Outlaw Audio receiver...it's a great piece of work for the price.

 

[ja1484]

I'm not opposed to pre-owned, but I would have some questions in that arena - what are some areas to see what's for sale? The usual online venues (ebay, craigslist, etc.)? In the case of speakers, I'd almost certainly want to demo before buying in the case of pre-owned equipment.

In all likelihood, I'll be buying new - seems like pre-owned is a lot of effort for minor savings.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Audiogon and Videogon are some AV specific used sites.

Also, some of the internet direct retailers have forums associated with them where there are FS/FT areas. These forums can also be a resource for trying to find someone in your area with these speakers that you could demo before deciding if they're right for you (and then buying new from the manufacturer).

 

[rsd]

I have done a similar thing with similar constraints.

See here my old thread on my Condo Theater: http://forums.anandtech.com/me...eadid=1674434&arctab=y

I have since upgraded a lot of the components, but similar situation.

HDTV (42" Aquos, 720p Optoma Projector), Onkyo 805 receiver, HTPC (Vista Media Center, HDHomerun for recordings, Mediabrowser plug-in, Blu-ray Drive, Arcsoft TMT3, etc.), separate Unraid server, Xbox 360, component switch box, etc etc.

Feel free to contact me with questions, at this point I feel like on the HTPC side of things I'm quite adept.