ATF reclassification of M885 (AR15 ammo situation) a "publishing error"

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irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
The best part about all of this is that steel core ammo offers no advantage to sportsmen over lead core ammo, making the whole flap just a demonstration of gun freak paranoia.

On top of that, steel core 5.56 ammo hasn't been banned at all.

Yeh, yeh, I know- "But they wanna do it!"

So what if they did? Enthusiasts would still be able to buy all the lead core 5.56 ammo that their hearts desire.

Must be one of those "Freedumb!" things.

Aside from the fact that said ammo is extremely common, cheap, in wide use for decades and that there's zero evidence that categorizing it as "armor piercing" will have any effect on crime?

Hell, the freaking Fraternal Order of Police has said the round is not killing cops.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/p...ded-ar-15-round-isnt-a-threat/article/2560964

As someone who's read the ATF's proposed changes word-for-word, The "saving police officers' lives" angle is virtually their entire argument. It doesn't hold water in and of itself, as any bullet, including the soft-core variety, fired out of a rifle or AR/AK pistol will penetrate soft body armor; but when the freaking police come out and say there isn't a problem, you know they're full of shit.

The only logical assumption is some mild backdoor gun control, or the ATF not knowing what they're proposing (and even they aren't that stupid).

And frankly, accusing gun owners of "paranoia" is a broken record at this point. Every time gun control comes around, even obvious, in-your-face gun control that's called such by its authors, gun owners are told that we're "paranoid" for opposing it and "nothing important will happen". Yeah, at this point you can shove that back up your ass where it came from. Gun owners put the nation to shame when it comes to holding our representatives accountable for what they were elected to do.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
lolol provided by the government...or did I miss something?


And wrapped in the flag? Blame Gen. Gates and the Brits.

Provided by private industry & condoned by a pro-gun US Attorney who refused to prosecute.

Only the death of a Border patrol agent provoked action on his part to produce slamdunk plea agreements for hefty sentences based on the evidence he'd had all along. He resigned in disgrace, rightfully so.

Make no mistake, I'm not anti-gun. I'm more about discrediting raving paranoid nutters who give all gun owners a bad name. I'm also all about discrediting those who exploit gun owners fears, as well. It's like the cartoon I posted earlier. Mass gun grabbing simply will not happen, nor should it. Gun owners should accept that truth rather than falling for conspiracy theories like those promulgated by LaPierre, for example. That nutter fringe does the community enormous harm in more ways than one, particularly in leadership positions of the NRA.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
Which matters not at all. It's like saying that people who don't own diesels have no interest in diesel emissions regulation or that people who don't own polluting industries have no legitimate interest in regulating them.

Interest is not the same as knowledge, which you clearly lack.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,528
5,943
136
Provided by private industry & condoned by a pro-gun US Attorney who refused to prosecute.

Only the death of a Border patrol agent provoked action on his part to produce slamdunk plea agreements for hefty sentences based on the evidence he'd had all along. He resigned in disgrace, rightfully so.
Asked about the Fast and Furious program at the Univision forum on Thursday, President Obama falsely claimed that the program began under President George W. Bush.
“I think it’s important for us to understand that the Fast and Furious program was a field-initiated program begun under the previous administration,” the president said. “When Eric Holder found out about it, he discontinued it. We assigned a inspector general to do a thorough report that was just issued, confirming that in fact Eric Holder did not know about this, that he took prompt action and the people who did initiate this were held accountable.”
Get more pure politics at ABCNews.com/Politics and a lighter take on the news at OTUSNews.com
In actuality, the Fast and Furious program was started in October 2009, nine months into the Obama presidency.
Previous programs involving ATF agents allowing guns to “walk” across the border so as to trace them were run during the Bush presidency, but not this particular “field-initiated program.”
Asked for comment, White House Spokesman Eric Schultz said, “The President was referring to the flawed tactic of gun-walking, which despite Republicans efforts to politicize this issue, began under the previous Administration and it was our Attorney General who ended it. In fact, this week’s IG report affirms this and if Republicans still have any legitimate questions about Fast and Furious, the 450-page report answers them. In light of this thorough report and Congress’s 16 month-long investigation, Republicans have no excuse to keep wasting time and taxpayer resources on politically-motivated, election-year attacks.”
As for President Obama’s discussion about the Justice Department Inspector General’s report on Fast and Furious, it’s true the Inspector General “concluded that although Attorney General Holder was notified immediately of (Border Patrol) Agent (Brian) Terry’s shooting and death, he was not told about the connection between the firearms found at the scene of the shooting and Operation Fast and Furious.
We determined that Attorney General Holder did not learn of that fact until sometime in 2011, after he received Sen. Grassley’s January 27 letter. Senior Department officials were aware of this significant and troubling information by December 17, 2010, but did not believe the information was sufficiently important to alert the Attorney General about it or to make any further inquiry regarding this development.”
But this was not entirely an exoneration of the Justice Department run by Mr. Holder. “We found it troubling that a case of this magnitude, and one that affected Mexico so significantly was not directly briefed to the Attorney General,” the report stated.
In addition to specific disciplinary measures, the Inspector General “made six recommendations designed to increase the Department’s involvement in and oversight of ATF operations, improve coordination among the Department’s law enforcement components, and enhance the Department’s wiretap application review and authorization process. The OIG intends to closely monitor the department’s progress in implementing these recommendations.”
Make no mistake, I'm not anti-gun. I'm more about discrediting raving paranoid nutters who give all gun owners a bad name. I'm also all about discrediting those who exploit gun owners fears, as well. It's like the cartoon I posted earlier. Mass gun grabbing simply will not happen, nor should it. Gun owners should accept that truth rather than falling for conspiracy theories like those promulgated by LaPierre, for example. That nutter fringe does the community enormous harm in more ways than one, particularly in leadership positions of the NRA.
Mass grabbing will never happen and nope they should not accept the bolded. The goal of the left is disarmament, either but bullets or guns.

If you really want a change, work on the crime ridden areas where the innocent are killed. You know the FBI statistics show people aren't killed by the evile assault rifles.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Interest is not the same as knowledge, which you clearly lack.

That's a standard ploy often useful when gun control advocates don't understand firearms at a technical level. I'm not one of those people, nor is the BATFE staffed by such people.

I thanked Venix for his link to the source, the BATFE, something that previous discussion had obfuscated. If I've been technically incorrect w/ any particulars since that, perhaps you could point them out in a specific manner.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Mass grabbing will never happen and nope they should not accept the bolded. The goal of the left is disarmament, either but bullets or guns.

If you really want a change, work on the crime ridden areas where the innocent are killed. You know the FBI statistics show people aren't killed by the evile assault rifles.

Please. The weapons of choice in both the Newtown shootings & the Aurora theatre massacre were AR type weapons. AK's were used in the notorious bank robber shootout in LA. Other examples exist, as well. High capacity handguns are more often the weapon of choice, as in the Virginia Tech & Ft Hood shootings.

Which doesn't mean that I ever supported confiscation of such weapons at all. What I would support is gun owners discrediting the looney tunes among them & moderating their own manner of speech.

Like I said- Don't act all paranoid. It scares people.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,528
5,943
136
Please. The weapons of choice in both the Newtown shootings & the Aurora theatre massacre were AR type weapons. AK's were used in the notorious bank robber shootout in LA. Other examples exist, as well. High capacity handguns are more often the weapon of choice, as in the Virginia Tech & Ft Hood shootings.

Which doesn't mean that I ever supported confiscation of such weapons at all. What I would support is gun owners discrediting the looney tunes among them & moderating their own manner of speech.

Like I said- Don't act all paranoid. It scares people.
And the Phelon killings. Those are the exceptions compared to the daily shootings around the country. The daily shootings that aren't news. Awesome and miraculous that no innocents died in the LA bank job other than the perps, 18 years ago.....

VT was a confirmed nut that didn't get called down....why? IDK.
Ft Hood, terrorist.

Gun owners are happy to discredit the nuts. Show me where they aren't.

Not that it would matter or that I observe theater rules but the Aurora one had a no gun policy.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
And the Phelon killings. Those are the exceptions compared to the daily shootings around the country. The daily shootings that aren't news. Awesome and miraculous that no innocents died in the LA bank job other than the perps, 18 years ago.....

VT was a confirmed nut that didn't get called down....why? IDK.
Ft Hood, terrorist.

Gun owners are happy to discredit the nuts. Show me where they aren't.

Not that it would matter or that I observe theater rules but the Aurora one had a no gun policy.

Heh. Wayne Lapierre is the executive vice president & CEO of the NRA. He's paid on the order of $1M/yr. When gun owners force him out of that, I'll believe that they're willing to discredit their own nutbars.

I do love the bullshit allusions in the reference to the no gun policy at the Aurora theatre. Quite coy.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
31,794
10,321
136
Please. The weapons of choice in both the Newtown shootings & the Aurora theatre massacre were AR type weapons. AK's were used in the notorious bank robber shootout in LA. Other examples exist, as well. High capacity handguns are more often the weapon of choice, as in the Virginia Tech & Ft Hood shootings.

Which doesn't mean that I ever supported confiscation of such weapons at all. What I would support is gun owners discrediting the looney tunes among them & moderating their own manner of speech.

Like I said- Don't act all paranoid. It scares people.

so we should focus our efforts on the ~100 deaths per year from mass shootings, and completely ignore the other ~8000 deaths per year from handguns?

not to mention the fact that in those mass shooting type situations, handguns are no more or less deadly than rifles. considering that the highest death toll mass shooting was committed with...handguns.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,320
15,117
136
so we should focus our efforts on the ~100 deaths per year from mass shootings, and completely ignore the other ~8000 deaths per year from handguns?

not to mention the fact that in those mass shooting type situations, handguns are no more or less deadly than rifles. considering that the highest death toll mass shooting was committed with...handguns.

Why can't you focus on both?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
so we should focus our efforts on the ~100 deaths per year from mass shootings, and completely ignore the other ~8000 deaths per year from handguns?

not to mention the fact that in those mass shooting type situations, handguns are no more or less deadly than rifles. considering that the highest death toll mass shooting was committed with...handguns.



Why can't you focus on doing something to save innocent lives rather than focus on things that will only affect gun owners who don't kill innocent people?

Entirely diversionary & a piss poor attempt at shaming the opposition into silence.

The topic at hand is a proposed ban on green tip AP 5.56 ammo. Actual negative effects on gun owners would be what, exactly? Is there a sporting purpose that other ammo does not fulfill?

Leave out the slippery slope fallacies, please. Numerous other rounds have been banned for decades w/o effect on ammo availability.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,371
14
61
Entirely diversionary & a piss poor attempt at shaming the opposition into silence.

The topic at hand is a proposed ban on green tip AP 5.56 ammo. Actual negative effects on gun owners would be what, exactly? Is there a sporting purpose that other ammo does not fulfill?

Leave out the slippery slope fallacies, please. Numerous other rounds have been banned for decades w/o effect on ammo availability.

Why do you keep posting in this thread?

You are admittedly ignorant and have preconceived notions that are incorrect. This issue will not affect your life at all. So you know little, what you know is incorrect, yet you continue to post more in this thread than anyone else.

Your troll is showing.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Why do you keep posting in this thread?

You are admittedly ignorant and have preconceived notions that are incorrect. This issue will not affect your life at all. So you know little, what you know is incorrect, yet you continue to post more in this thread than anyone else.

Your troll is showing.

I do love it- quote me & ignore what I said in the same post, substitute bluster for argument.

If you don't want to talk about it that desperately feel free to bow out.
 

Kwatt

Golden Member
Jan 3, 2000
1,602
12
81
The topic at hand is a proposed ban on green tip AP 5.56 ammo. Actual negative effects on gun owners would be what, exactly? Is there a sporting purpose that other ammo does not fulfill?

First I have never fired a 5.56 round so my knowledge is missing.

I haven't fired anything but .22 lr and .22 shorts in years. I mostly shoot airrifles now.

What are the positive effects of banning this ammo?

How many LEO's are shot through the vest with this ammo in a handgun every year?

Thanks for any info.

.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,371
14
61
I do love it- quote me & ignore what I said in the same post, substitute bluster for argument.

If you don't want to talk about it that desperately feel free to bow out.

No one has every said that the only purpose of firearms and ammo is "sporting". Your strawman is weak and you are a moron.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
First I have never fired a 5.56 round so my knowledge is missing.

I haven't fired anything but .22 lr and .22 shorts in years. I mostly shoot airrifles now.

What are the positive effects of banning this ammo?

How many LEO's are shot through the vest with this ammo in a handgun every year?

Thanks for any info.

.

There's zero reason for this ban, other than assuaging Democrat angst over things they don't understand.

This is just another case of Democrats being idiots. Maybe next they'll go after barrel shrouds again, you know, those things that flip up against your shoulder.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
First I have never fired a 5.56 round so my knowledge is missing.

I haven't fired anything but .22 lr and .22 shorts in years. I mostly shoot airrifles now.

What are the positive effects of banning this ammo?

How many LEO's are shot through the vest with this ammo in a handgun every year?

Thanks for any info.

.

I don't think I need to paraphrase BATFE reasoning- it's laid out in the direct link Venix furnished. I merely point out the usual paranoid insanity offered against it.

Either way, enthusiasts will be able to purchase all the 5.56 ammo that their hearts desire.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,371
14
61
Read the direct link to the BATFE.

Jhhnn 32
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BlitzPuppet

Platinum Member
Feb 4, 2012
2,460
7
81
I don't have a full dog in this fight, but I am a "gun guy". I don't shoot .223 but I do shoot various other cartridges..one being 5.45x39 that just had surplus ammo banned for import by using the same "steel core" definition they tried to classify M885 under. It's frustrating when some time is banned for an asinine reason when it has been readily used for many years in the past. This happens and people tend to hoard/buy everything up so they can get in on some easy money and quick profit.

I don't want to deal with lead ammo due to the fact that I'd have to deal with lead fouling in the barrel that is well known to be a pain to remove, as well as I would like to avoid handling lead as much as I can .
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
Apparently the gun grabbers strategy is thus:
1) ATF bans "armor piercing" ammo on the basis that they contain metals other than lead
2) EPA bans lead ammo for environmental reasons
3) profit!
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
Why is Jhhnn trolling this thread so hard? Doesn't seem like his normal MO.
 
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