Atheists: question about the evolutionary purpose of religion

[AreaCode7O7]

A few questions, actually.

Definition: By "human inclination to believe in a higher power and participate in organized religion" I specifically mean the scientific observation that religious people show activity in different parts of their brain when doing stuff like praying, but generally include any other research that's been shown that the practice of religion / exercise of belief has physiological causes and effects in the human body and mind.


Do you think that the human inclination to believe in a higher power and participate in organized religion, at some point in human history, served an evolutionary purpose? Perhaps as a tribal social bonding type experience that, by creation cohesion in groups, helped some tribes succeed where others died?

Do you think that the human inclination to believe in a higher power and participate in organized religion in the modern day could be reasonably recognized and accepted as an evolutionary human trait largely beyond control of the individual, not necessarily worthy of ridicule?

Do you think humans will ever evolve beyond the inclination to believe in a higher power and participate in organized religion?

Do you think that humankind has reached a point in our hold over science that we are artificially delaying, obstructing or otherwise tampering with our own evolution? (kinda separate from the religion question)


I do recognize that there are religious and agnostic people who believe in evolution and could also answer these questions but I'm particularly interested in the atheist view. If you're religious and want to answer them anyway in the thread, go ahead.

Cliffs for the attention-impaired:
- Is there an evolutionary reason for the development of religion?
- Do you think religious people are evolutionarily geared to be that way?
- Will we ever evolve past religion?
- Are we interfering in our own evolution?

 

[Vehemence]

wat

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: dNor
wat

Cliffs for the attention-impaired:
- Is there an evolutionary reason for the development of religion?
- Do you think religious people are evolutionarily geared to be that way?
- Will we ever evolve past religion?
- Are we interfering in our own evolution?

 

[CrazyLazy]

Yet another trolling religion thread. This stuff should really go in P&N with the rest of the arguments.

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: CrazyLazy
Yet another trolling religion thread. This stuff should really go in P&N with the rest of the arguments.

This honestly isn't intended as a troll. I'm religious myself so I'm not trolling the religious types, and I thought that my questions were formatted neutrally to get a reasonable response from atheists. Is it trollish to want to hear thoughts from the other point of view?

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Evolution doesn't have a "purpose." The primary goal of life is continued survival, but to extrapolate that to be a "purpose" implies that there is a reason for life to exist; there isn't. Consequently, the question, as asked, is impossible to answer. But I'll try.

Life, in the pursuit of continued survival, is greedy. Our genes are more important to pass on than the genes of any other living species, or any being within our species unless it can act as a reproductive vessel for our genes. This greed leads to dominance hierarchies within species, which you'll find across broad spectrums of the animal kingdom (many mammals have complex domination rituals and alpha males keep harems). Religion is a method of control and power, a complex dominance hierarchy that enables certain individuals to emerge as the alpha. The ironic thing is that modern religions, predominantly Catholicism, have completely separated the reproductive aspect of this dominance hierarchy; the alphas in Catholicism are expressly forbidden from engaging in reproduction.

I think that the propensity for humans to believe in religion stems from an innate desire to understand how our world functions. Our key evolutionary trait that has led us down the path we are on is our large brain, capable of complex logic and reasoning that no other species on Earth seems to possess. This higher brain function leaves us naturally curious about our environment. Unfortunately, we cannot always explain the natural phenomena we observe, leading us to create explanations for what we believe we are seeing. Primitive cultures could not conceive of a complex theory about the Universe as they did not have telescopes allowing them to view the heavens, so they crafted complex stories about the origins of the stars and celestial bodies. In the middle ages, humans were incapable of conceiving of microscopic organisms as we did not have microscopes to allow us to see microbial life, so disease was explained through a variety of complex tales of an inbalance in the humors or witchcraft. Many people continue believing in stories of a higher power because it succinctly explains that which science cannot yet explain; the origins of the universe, of life, of that certain humanitarian je ne se quois that we like to call the "soul."

We will always have that which we cannot explain, and there will always be those that will seek to control others, so religion will be around for a long time to come. I think it is more likely that humans will perish or evolve into a new species before religion vanishes.

As for tampering with our own evolution, again, evolution has no purpose. If we continue to survive, life is successful in its goal, but that speaks nothing about the aims of evolution. Evolution is merely a process by which life continues to survive or goes extinct.

 

[rivan]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Do you think that the human inclination to believe in a higher power and participate in organized religion, at some point in human history, served an evolutionary purpose? Perhaps as a tribal social bonding type experience that, by creation cohesion in groups, helped some tribes succeed where others died?

Yes, though indirectly. I think it's been used from the beginning in one form or another to drive all sorts of societal behaviors. For example, ancestor worship leading to the immediate burial of the deceased (or other death rituals) may have at one point prevented the spread of disease.

The answers to most of these questions depends heavily on your definition of religion.

I don't think belief in a higher power has shaped evolution in a direct way.

Do you think that the human inclination to believe in a higher power and participate in organized religion in the modern day could be reasonably recognized and accepted as an evolutionary human trait largely beyond control of the individual, not necessarily worthy of ridicule?

I think the propensity for people to try to make sense of their world is hard-wired, and kids look to their parents for help with it. Their parents believe in a higher power, so too do the kids, usually. It's also human nature to seek out like-minded people; enough people believe in something and spend time together, it's only a matter of time before someone organizes/formalizes it.

There are people who break from this (in both directions - both 'finding God' and 'losing faith'). Generally, they've either made sense of their world in a way more attractive to them or made peace with the idea that not everything has/needs an explanation.

Do you think humans will ever evolve beyond the inclination to believe in a higher power and participate in organized religion?

As I said, I think the inclination is to try to make sense of their world, rather than belief in a higher power specifically.

I don't think that's going anywhere. In fact, I hope it doesn't. Rather, I hope the future holds better, more complete explanations for those trying to make sense of their worlds. Faith in science, as it were.

[Do you think that humankind has reached a point in our hold over science that we are artificially delaying, obstructing or otherwise tampering with our own evolution? (kinda separate from the religion question)

I guess that depends on your point of view. We're not evolving completely unconsciously any longer. From a certain point of view, it might be considered the mandate of sentience to 'tamper' with your own evolution. From that point of view, it's really still part of evolution, so would it still be tampering?

I do recognize that there are religious and agnostic people who believe in evolution and could also answer these questions but I'm particularly interested in the atheist view. If you're religious and want to answer them anyway in the thread, go ahead.

I'm somewhere between atheist and agnostic. I'm pretty sure there's some sort of higher power out there, but I question how directly interested (or even aware) of humanity it is. I'm not even willing to commit to it's sentience - loosely, the universe is a higher power from my perspective. It may or may not get any more defined or understandable for us.

 

[rivan]

Originally posted by: CrazyLazy
Yet another trolling religion thread. This stuff should really go in P&N with the rest of the arguments.

I don't see any trolling here. Except maybe your presence.

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Evolution doesn't have a "purpose." The primary goal of life is continued survival, but to extrapolate that to be a "purpose" implies that there is a reason for life to exist; there isn't. Consequently, the question, as asked, is impossible to answer. But I'll try.

Life, in the pursuit of continued survival, is greedy. Our genes are more important to pass on than the genes of any other living species, or any being within our species unless it can act as a reproductive vessel for our genes. This greed leads to dominance hierarchies within species, which you'll find across broad spectrums of the animal kingdom (many mammals have complex domination rituals and alpha males keep harems). Religion is a method of control and power, a complex dominance hierarchy that enables certain individuals to emerge as the alpha. The ironic thing is that modern religions, predominantly Catholicism, have completely separated the reproductive aspect of this dominance hierarchy; the alphas in Catholicism are expressly forbidden from engaging in reproduction.

I think that the propensity for humans to believe in religion stems from an innate desire to understand how our world functions. Our key evolutionary trait that has led us down the path we are on is our large brain, capable of complex logic and reasoning that no other species on Earth seems to possess. This higher brain function leaves us naturally curious about our environment. Unfortunately, we cannot always explain the natural phenomena we observe, leading us to create explanations for what we believe we are seeing. Primitive cultures could not conceive of a complex theory about the Universe as they did not have telescopes allowing them to view the heavens, so they crafted complex stories about the origins of the stars and celestial bodies. In the middle ages, humans were incapable of conceiving of microscopic organisms as we did not have microscopes to allow us to see microbial life, so disease was explained through a variety of complex tales of an inbalance in the humors or witchcraft. Many people continue believing in stories of a higher power because it succinctly explains that which science cannot yet explain; the origins of the universe, of life, of that certain humanitarian je ne se quois that we like to call the "soul."

We will always have that which we cannot explain, and there will always be those that will seek to control others, so religion will be around for a long time to come. I think it is more likely that humans will perish or evolve into a new species before religion vanishes.

As for tampering with our own evolution, again, evolution has no purpose. If we continue to survive, life is successful in its goal, but that speaks nothing about the aims of evolution. Evolution is merely a process by which life continues to survive or goes extinct.

Good point, in bold. Replace the word "purpose" with "function" then, for the discussion.

Thanks for the thoughtful answer.

 

[fishjie]

perhaps. dawkins talks about this in god delusion. he talks about misfiring. when a moth is drawn into a candle light into the flame, there is no evolutionary benefit to do so. however, moths have evolved to navigate by determining its position from the light from the stars, so the candle basically messes this up. likewise, we evolved the tendency to trust our parents and other forms of authority. this is so we don't hurt ourselves. for example, a parent says, don't play with fire, and we listen. this blind obedience to authority allows religion to flourish.

as for the actual start of religion, i think its not an evolutionary thing, but more of an attempt to explain the world back in the day. this was before we had science...

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: fishjie
perhaps. dawkins talks about this in god delusion. he talks about misfiring. when a moth is drawn into a candle light into the flame, there is no evolutionary benefit to do so. however, moths have evolved to navigate by determining its position from the light from the stars, so the candle basically messes this up. likewise, we evolved the tendency to trust our parents and other forms of authority. this is so we don't hurt ourselves. for example, a parent says, don't play with fire, and we listen. this blind obedience to authority allows religion to flourish.

as for the actual start of religion, i think its not an evolutionary thing, but more of an attempt to explain the world back in the day. this was before we had science...

Fair enough. So in your view the inclination towards religion serves no evolutionary function itself, only existing as a side effect of another evolutionary function. Is my restatement accurate?

 

[fishjie]

yup. dawkin's explanation is a little bit more eloquent than my botched attempt. but i think its a good hypothesis. i'm not sure how one would prove or disprove it though.

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: fishjie
yup. dawkin's explanation is a little bit more eloquent than my botched attempt. but i think its a good hypothesis. i'm not sure how one would prove or disprove it though.

I don't think any of the conversation in this thread will be provable or disprovable but my hope in posting it was just to read the perspective of others, so thanks for contributing.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: dNor
wat

Cliffs for the attention-impaired:
- Is there an evolutionary reason for the development of religion?
- Do you think religious people are evolutionarily geared to be that way?
- Will we ever evolve past religion?
- Are we interfering in our own evolution?

absolutely. I'm not one to believe in sky fairies, but I think there is a strong evolutionary component towards human spirituality.

Perhaps it's an early fear/confusion response when our ancestors were initially becoming "aware" of the world around them, and eventually became a need to explain, provide meaning for what was happening.

Science itself is a progression from religion: both seek a form of truth, a means of knowing. Science progressed when the value placed on logical observation became undeniable, as the need to base knowledge on verifiable, relevant fact.

Unfortunately, this discussion can never go anywhere b/c this is a religion thread in AT. despite its intended merit, it will do nothing but drag out the trolls.....

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: CrazyLazy
Yet another trolling religion thread. This stuff should really go in P&N with the rest of the arguments.

Coming from the President of the "I'm a dick in a box" club.

 

[zinfamous]

Uh, I should add that spirituality, belief in a higher power could be considered an expected evolutionary function in a species such as ours that relies on community for success. So much of our physiology evolved to promote the family system--tricking the male to hang around longer and contribute to the raising of the baby, so incredibly underdeveloped at birth when compared to other animals. In the same way, a maturing conscious would likely seek a common system of belief; some type of structured understanding that would be shared among others, such that this community could form a tighter bond, and therefore increase survival.

This leads to the need for rule and laws to keep such communities together and successful. You can argue that the basic framework of religion was necessary for our success, and that our understanding of community, order, and even the birth of science all owe their origins to religion.

I think religion is still necessary, in some form. For a great many people, whether they be simple-minded or erudite, religion gives them significant meaning that despite how hard they may have tried, can not be fulfilled through other means. A lot of the deity worship seems unnecessary today, in terms of our successful evolution (I think we can close the book on the success part...we've pretty much hit our long senescence), and it seems to be more divisive than anything; more or less the opposite of its intent.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Do you think humans will ever evolve beyond the inclination to believe in a higher power and participate in organized religion?

well, we can only pray.

oh wait.

 

[StormRider]

Another possible explanation for how religion evolved is the fact at some point in time humans started to care/love one another. If we didn't care about any one then when they died we would just moved on without thinking about them anymore. But many times when a loved one dies, we constantly think about them and hope to see them again and this desire makes us wonder what happens when we die. And then we come up with a God thing that offers us hope that someday we will see our loved ones again.

I guess what I'm saying is that if there is love then we will never evolve from dis-believing in a God. In other words, love begets God and God begets love.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
A few questions, actually.

Definition: By "human inclination to believe in a higher power and participate in organized religion" I specifically mean the scientific observation that religious people show activity in different parts of their brain when doing stuff like praying, but generally include any other research that's been shown that the practice of religion / exercise of belief has physiological causes and effects in the human body and mind.


Do you think that the human inclination to believe in a higher power and participate in organized religion, at some point in human history, served an evolutionary purpose? Perhaps as a tribal social bonding type experience that, by creation cohesion in groups, helped some tribes succeed where others died?

Yes.

Do you think that the human inclination to believe in a higher power and participate in organized religion in the modern day could be reasonably recognized and accepted as an evolutionary human trait largely beyond control of the individual, not necessarily worthy of ridicule?

Maybe, nurture should be able to overwhelm nature (insticnt)

Do you think humans will ever evolve beyond the inclination to believe in a higher power and participate in organized religion?

Not necessarily, but "evolution" isn't necessary to correct the issue

Do you think that humankind has reached a point in our hold over science that we are artificially delaying, obstructing or otherwise tampering with our own evolution? (kinda separate from the religion question)

Soon.

I do recognize that there are religious and agnostic people who believe in evolution and could also answer these questions but I'm particularly interested in the atheist view. If you're religious and want to answer them anyway in the thread, go ahead.

Cliffs for the attention-impaired:
- Is there an evolutionary reason for the development of religion?
- Do you think religious people are evolutionarily geared to be that way?
- Will we ever evolve past religion?
- Are we interfering in our own evolution?

 

[Atheus]

Religion, and all other belief systems including science for that matter, are a result of our need to understand the world around us. This is what served an evolutionary 'purpose' not religion itself. Caveman A who can make fire will survive much better than caveman B who can't, but of course this has the unfortunate side effect of caveman A wondering - what IS fire, really...

 

[TallBill]

Do you think that humankind has reached a point in our hold over science that we are artificially delaying, obstructing or otherwise tampering with our own evolution? (kinda separate from the religion question)

This is already true. Darker skin genes are more prevalent in the band around the earth where UV rays are more intense. People with darker skin have since moved to areas outside that band, but because of modern nutrition they do not die because of vitamin D deficiency before reproduction.

So certain aspects of our genetic makeup have been rendered useless already.

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
A few questions, actually.

Definition: By "human inclination to believe in a higher power and participate in organized religion" I specifically mean the scientific observation that religious people show activity in different parts of their brain when doing stuff like praying, but generally include any other research that's been shown that the practice of religion / exercise of belief has physiological causes and effects in the human body and mind.


Do you think that the human inclination to believe in a higher power and participate in organized religion, at some point in human history, served an evolutionary purpose? Perhaps as a tribal social bonding type experience that, by creation cohesion in groups, helped some tribes succeed where others died?

Yes.

Yes in the sense that you agree with my sample suggestion? Or do you think there's another/different evolutionary function?

Do you think that the human inclination to believe in a higher power and participate in organized religion in the modern day could be reasonably recognized and accepted as an evolutionary human trait largely beyond control of the individual, not necessarily worthy of ridicule?

Maybe, nurture should be able to overwhelm nature (insticnt)

Nurture should be able to overwhelm nature behaviorally but physiologically? For instance, fear. It lights up particular parts of our brains. Can that non-behavioral response be modified via nurture?

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: TallBill

Do you think that humankind has reached a point in our hold over science that we are artificially delaying, obstructing or otherwise tampering with our own evolution? (kinda separate from the religion question)

This is already true. Darker skin genes are more prevalent in the band around the earth where UV rays are more intense. People with darker skin have since moved to areas outside that band, but because of modern nutrition they do not die because of vitamin D deficiency before reproduction.

So certain aspects of our genetic makeup have been rendered useless already.

Huh, I never would have considered that example. Thanks.

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: Atheus
Religion, and all other belief systems including science for that matter, are a result of our need to understand the world around us. This is what served an evolutionary 'purpose' not religion itself. Caveman A who can make fire will survive much better than caveman B who can't, but of course this has the unfortunate side effect of caveman A wondering - what IS fire, really...

fire.... HOT!

 

[JEDI]

Originally posted by: dNor
wat

this