Atheists sue N.J. school over ‘under God’ in Pledge of Allegiance

[Exophase]

Yes, I would shut up and take it....you know why? Because Allah is simply Arabic for "God".

How about if it said "under Satan"?

 

[artvscommerce]

How about if it said "under Satan"?

You're wasting your time. These guys have no interest in discussing the topic. They're just troll'n.

 

[Retro Rob]

So what?

Really? Someone's proven wrong, and instead of acknowledging the error, you say "so what"?

It doesn't take much intellect to understand that point he was trying to illustrate. Why not respond to it rather than trollin'?

What "point"? That he was trying to say that Allah is the Muslim God and God is the Christian God?

That doesn't even make sense.

 

[Retro Rob]

How about if it said "under Satan"?

Now, that's a contrast. If it said "under Satan" and since I've never said the pledge anyway, I asked to be exempted from that. If they want to say "under Satan", then so be it.

I don't worship Satan.

 

[thraashman]

Really? Someone's proven wrong, and instead of acknowledging the error, you say "so what"?

What "point"? That he was trying to say that Allah is the Muslim God and God is the Christian God?

That doesn't even make sense.

It makes plenty sense from the perspective that MOST Christian Americans associate Allah with Islam and would thus be vastly offended at having that word in the pledge. Afterall most English speaking Muslims still refer to their god as Allah and don't change that word to English. In fact none I've ever known do.

 

[artvscommerce]

Really? Someone's proven wrong, and instead of acknowledging the error, you say "so what"?



What "point"? That he was trying to say that Allah is the Muslim God and God is the Christian God?

That doesn't even make sense.

I say "so what" because the error doesn't affect my ability to understand the point he's trying to make.

Do you just stop reading any time you encounter a spelling or grammar error?

I've been operating under the assumption that you understood his point all along and were just trolling, but maybe it just went over your head..

 

[Exophase]

Now, that's a contrast. If it said "under Satan" and since I've never said the pledge anyway, I asked to be exempted from that. If they want to say "under Satan", then so be it.

I don't worship Satan.

So you really have no problem with what the pledge says so long as you don't have to say it? Even if within the setting it's implied that you're supposed to say it?

This isn't a matter of being offended by a concept or by what other people believe, the pledge carries with it two stronger aspects:

1) It shows that the government is endorsing religion, which isn't really a great precedent given the authority the government has
2) Children are being compelled to pledge this endorsement themselves, even if they're not being required to per se

This isn't really that far removed from having a prayer instead, where the children aren't punished if they don't bow their heads and close their eyes.

Personally I don't think it's a big deal because it's superficial and doesn't really hurt anything, and in the decades since its enactment the government hasn't followed it up with more serious actions. But if if were the 40s/50s and the addition were just happening I'd be concerned.

You may say that it wouldn't matter to you if it said "under Satan", maybe you'd really react to that addition with indifference, I have no idea of knowing.. But I do know that most people would be outraged.

 

[Retro Rob]

It makes plenty sense from the perspective that MOST Christian Americans associate Allah with Islam and would thus be vastly offended at having that word in the pledge. Afterall most English speaking Muslims still refer to their god as Allah and don't change that word to English. In fact none I've ever known do.

Well, most Christians/Muslims are idiots then if they associate a translation of the same word they use freely and indiscriminately exclusively with Islam/Christianity in such a separationist fashion.

 

[Paratus]

Fwiw, I do believe atheists have legal standing on this because we know in this country, all references to God is referring to the Christian God, and leading a pledge with God in it is indeed affirming universal recognition of God. Not everyone believes God exists.

My point wasn't the legality of it as much of it as being the reasoning behind it. When I saw "discrimination" in the link, I almost didn't want to read further because while it may be ostracizing to kids of atheists parents, I cannot see how this is discriminatory, unless they wanted to lead with "under Science" or something, as wasn't allowed, for example, or kids were separated into groups of believers who recited it, and non-believers who didn't, but they have legal grounds nonetheless.

The discrimination occurs in the eyes of the discriminated. Strangely enough atheists are also US citizens and shouldn't have their children being proselytized to by the government run school. 1st amendment specifically bars it.

US citizens should be allowed to practice or not thier religions without interference from the state. Do you want the government involved in teaching your kids your religion?

The founding fathers didn't want the government involved. The constitution was based on the philosophy of the enlightenment.

Are you familiar with the enlightenment?

 

[marincounty]

Their just words, no need to get upset. Even when we change it to "under Obama".
You don't have to recite it unless you want to.
And the money can have rotating statements about Buddha, Allah, God, mother earth, etc.

 

[alzan]

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

1st version - religion neutral. 2nd version - religion specific

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The reason for all past/current lawsuits.

< snip >

I don't worship Satan.

You're missing out.

 

[Stewox]

Most atheist groups have been infiltrated by authoritarians, agents of the new world order.

 

[Jaskalas]

1st version - religion neutral. 2nd version - religion specific

Which specific religion?

 

[Retro Rob]

The discrimination occurs in the eyes of the discriminated.

C'mon, I can feel discriminated against if a white employer chooses not to hire me, even if I am perfectly qualified.

Strangely enough atheists are also US citizens and shouldn't have their children being proselytized to by the government run school. 1st amendment specifically bars it.

That I agree with, but this is explicitly why you're not forced to say it.

US citizens should be allowed to practice or not thier religions without interference from the state. Do you want the government involved in teaching your kids your religion?

No, I don't, but how does this fit into the discussion? Are we teaching kids religion via the pledge?

That's one heck of a leap, dude.

 

[Retro Rob]

You're missing out.

Speaking from personal experience?

 

[IronWing]

Most atheist groups have been infiltrated by authoritarians, agents of the new world order.

Wow, it's a good thing I'm a lone wolf.

Atheist groups are a weird concept anyway. Do people who don't believe in unicorns organize?

 

[ch33zw1z]

Most atheist groups have been infiltrated by authoritarians, agents of the new world order.

Setting the stage for the Anti-Christ. Christians should be thrilled. After a couple mellenia, it's about time.

 

[Retro Rob]

Wow, it's a good thing I'm a lone wolf.

Atheist groups are a weird concept anyway. Do people who don't believe in unicorns organize?

Apparently, they do.

http://secular.org/event/2013-atheist-alliance-america-national-convention

 

[Zaap]

Do people who don't believe in unicorns organize?

How dare you!!

You mentioned a word I don't believe in!!!!! You should know I don't believe in it, because I spend tons of time and effort railing against unicorns, making sure everyone knows I don't believe in them, trying to get that hated, vile, oppressive mythical creature banned from mention!! Don't you get it??!! I don't believe in unicorns!!! How dare you oppress me by bringing that word into this thread! It should be banned!!

I'm out of here to mount my 'Ban Unicorns' lawsuit, to prove to the world once and for all that I beleive so little in unicorns that I will hire lawyers and harass all the rest of society to ban that word once and for all so I never have to be oppressed by it again!! That's just how much I'm committed to not believing in unicorns and showing the world that they won't get me with those damn horsies with horns!!!!

 

[soulcougher73]

I don't think your words are oppressing or offending anyone, so i'm sorry if that's what you're going for.

I was just a bit perplexed that you could completely miss the point on such an obvious question.

It's what they do when a the answer they would give goes against what they wish to believe. Its called deflection and only sore losers use it as a tactic. Or they attack a spelling mistake or other such lame thing and totally miss the intent of the question which should be obvious to anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together.

 

[soulcougher73]

It makes plenty sense from the perspective that MOST Christian Americans associate Allah with Islam and would thus be vastly offended at having that word in the pledge. Afterall most English speaking Muslims still refer to their god as Allah and don't change that word to English. In fact none I've ever known do.

Don't confuse him with facts, logic and simple reasoning. They hate when you do that.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Most atheist groups have been infiltrated by authoritarians, agents of the new world order.

I think that *you* are one of those 'agents'

 

[soulcougher73]

Well, most Christians/Muslims are idiots then if they associate a translation of the same word they use freely and indiscriminately exclusively with Islam/Christianity in such a separationist fashion.

And we have a winner

 

[soulcougher73]

How dare you!!

You mentioned a word I don't believe in!!!!! You should know I don't believe in it, because I spend tons of time and effort railing against unicorns, making sure everyone knows I don't believe in them, trying to get that hated, vile, oppressive mythical creature banned from mention!! Don't you get it??!! I don't believe in unicorns!!! How dare you oppress me by bringing that word into this thread! It should be banned!!

I'm out of here to mount my 'Ban Unicorns' lawsuit, to prove to the world once and for all that I beleive so little in unicorns that I will hire lawyers and harass all the rest of society to ban that word once and for all so I never have to be oppressed by it again!! That's just how much I'm committed to not believing in unicorns and showing the world that they won't get me with those damn horsies with horns!!!!

Well, when the government creates a law saying you should pledge your allegiance to the unicorns while in school we can talk. Until then you may not want to think as its clearly not your strong suit.

 

[alzan]

Which specific religion?

That's why I posted the text of the 1st Amendment; it doesn't say "establishment of a religion, it says "establishment of religion".

Speaking from personal experience?

Nah. Everyone has the capacity to do evil; the existence of an entity that controls evil people or spurs us towards evil cannot be proven or disproven.