Atheists sue N.J. school over ‘under God’ in Pledge of Allegiance

[Zaap]

Well, when the government creates a law saying you should pledge your allegiance to the unicorns while in school we can talk. Until then you may not want to think as its clearly not your strong suit.

The government has passed a law requiring you to say under god and to believe in god and to worship a religion JUST AS MUCH as it's passed a law requiring me to pledge allegiance to unicorns.

You're just soooooooooooooo oppressed by kids in school citing the pledge!!!!! You're just as oppressed by books in the school library about unicorns. THis surely is the government seeking to promote the religion of unicorns!

Like I said, it's amazing how much power the word god has over you that you spend so much effort trying to keep other people that have nothing to do with you from hearing some pledge that has it. Why is that? Even most religious zealots aren't that fearful of god- and they claim to be believers!

 

[IronWing]

The government has passed a law requiring you to say under god and to believe in god and to worship a religion JUST AS MUCH as it's passed a law requiring me to pledge allegiance to unicorns.

You're just soooooooooooooo oppressed by kids in school citing the pledge!!!!! You're just as oppressed by books in the school library about unicorns. THis surely is the government seeking to promote the religion of unicorns!

Like I said, it's amazing how much power the word god has over you that you spend so much effort trying to keep other people that have nothing to do with you from hearing some pledge that has it. Why is that? Even most religious zealots aren't that fearful of god- and they claim to be believers!

Then, again, you should have no issue with the words being removed?

 

[ivwshane]

The government has passed a law requiring you to say under god and to believe in god and to worship a religion JUST AS MUCH as it's passed a law requiring me to pledge allegiance to unicorns.

You're just soooooooooooooo oppressed by kids in school citing the pledge!!!!! You're just as oppressed by books in the school library about unicorns. THis surely is the government seeking to promote the religion of unicorns!

Like I said, it's amazing how much power the word god has over you that you spend so much effort trying to keep other people that have nothing to do with you from hearing some pledge that has it. Why is that? Even most religious zealots aren't that fearful of god- and they claim to be believers!

He's expelling just as much energy as you are trying to defend the government on this, do you think that's a lot of energy? I don't.

Would you be a supporter if you were aware of people coming from all over the country bringing their guns and confronting government workers about how the government is being oppressive?

 

[soulcougher73]

The government has passed a law requiring you to say under god and to believe in god and to worship a religion JUST AS MUCH as it's passed a law requiring me to pledge allegiance to unicorns.

You're just soooooooooooooo oppressed by kids in school citing the pledge!!!!! You're just as oppressed by books in the school library about unicorns. THis surely is the government seeking to promote the religion of unicorns!

Like I said, it's amazing how much power the word god has over you that you spend so much effort trying to keep other people that have nothing to do with you from hearing some pledge that has it. Why is that? Even most religious zealots aren't that fearful of god- and they claim to be believers!

Ever heard of the constitution, bill of rights, or the principles the founding fathers based the country upon? If you had then you would understand why what you ask is : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTc--4jz0GQ

 

[Zaap]

Then, again, you should have no issue with the words being removed?

Wouldn't bother me in the least. They're just words. It doesn't change anything either way.

 

[JEDIYoda]

That depends. For Arab-speaking Christians that might be the case. For Arab-speaking Muslims the meanings may be quite different. Each person carries a personal interpretation of the word "god" and even among those who profess a common faith there may be a wide range of meaning for god.

No it does not depend......They both mean the same thing!!
Now if you like we can discuss this in any number of languages including Arabic or one of the dialects..perhaps Hebrew or Polish.....as retro Bob stated -- You made yourself look woefully ignorant for not know that those two words are exactly the same in both English and Arabic respectively.

 

[Zaap]

Ever heard of the constitution, bill of rights, or the principles the founding fathers based the country upon?

LOL! Oh brother. So now the pledge is against the bill of rights! That's hilarious!

 

[JEDIYoda]

So you really have no problem with what the pledge says so long as you don't have to say it? Even if within the setting it's implied that you're supposed to say it?

This isn't a matter of being offended by a concept or by what other people believe, the pledge carries with it two stronger aspects:

1) It shows that the government is endorsing religion, which isn't really a great precedent given the authority the government has
2) Children are being compelled to pledge this endorsement themselves, even if they're not being required to per se

This isn't really that far removed from having a prayer instead, where the children aren't punished if they don't bow their heads and close their eyes.

Personally I don't think it's a big deal because it's superficial and doesn't really hurt anything, and in the decades since its enactment the government hasn't followed it up with more serious actions. But if if were the 40s/50s and the addition were just happening I'd be concerned.

You may say that it wouldn't matter to you if it said "under Satan", maybe you'd really react to that addition with indifference, I have no idea of knowing.. But I do know that most people would be outraged.

What you don`t understands is that I see nothing in the constitution against the government endorsing a religion -- please point that out....
What I do see in the constitution is that the government cannot form or make its own religion sort of shall we say The Roman catholic Church of the United States...
like the Anglican church of England..etc.......

One nation under God.....should not even be an issue......whose God......which God...OMG nothing better to do...
How about feed the hungry or cloth the needy....

 

[IronWing]

No it does not depend......They both mean the same thing!!
Now if you like we can discuss this in any number of languages including Arabic or one of the dialects..perhaps Hebrew or Polish.....as retro Bob stated -- You made yourself look woefully ignorant for not know that those two words are exactly the same in both English and Arabic respectively.

It goes back to the question posed on the Discussion Forum: Do Christians and Muslims worship the same god? I contend that they don't. Then again, I contend that no two people worship the same god.

In fact, you covered my point quite well...

not true at all.....
Logic dictates nothing.

Each god can be totally different from the other god!
Logic dictates nothing except for false irrational thinking!!

and...

<snip>
I personally say they do not worship the same God!!
<snip>

 

[soulcougher73]

No it does not depend......They both mean the same thing!!
Now if you like we can discuss this in any number of languages including Arabic or one of the dialects..perhaps Hebrew or Polish.....as retro Bob stated -- You made yourself look woefully ignorant for not know that those two words are exactly the same in both English and Arabic respectively.

Well since its just a word that means the same thing, we shall hence for change the pledge of allegiance to say Allah instead of God. Shouldnt change anything right? It means the same thing.

 

[IronWing]

LOL! Oh brother. So now the pledge is against the bill of rights! That's hilarious!

That is where the anti-establishment clause is written.

 

[soulcougher73]

That is where the anti-establishment clause is written.

He isn't the sharpest tool in the shed. Actually i don't think he is even in the shed. Think they left him outside to rust.

 

[Zaap]

That is where the anti-establishment clause is written.

Its been pointed out a thousand times, there's no religion being established by government with the pledge.

That's just a flimsy reach used by people that are afraid of the word god for some strange reason.

 

[IronWing]

Its been pointed out a thousand times, there's no religion being established by government with the pledge.

That's just a flimsy reach used by people that are afraid of the word god for some strange reason.

If "god" is meaningless, not a proposition I'm adverse to, then can we say the same about all the other words in the pledge or even those in the Constitution? One group had a meaning in mind when they proposed adding the words "under god" to the pledge so perhaps another group has a similar meaning in mind when proposing to remove the words?

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Its been pointed out a thousand times, there's no religion being established by government with the pledge.

That's just a flimsy reach used by people that are afraid of the word god for some strange reason.

I'm with you in as much as I think people get their panties into too tight a knot over the word God; I can believe that God doesn't exist and still recite the pledge without the inherent contradiction rocking me to my very core because I am not a complete simpleton and I can hold competing beliefs in my head simultaneously. These people need to get over it.

That said, can you think of a single way to use the phrase "one nation under God" without ANY religious implication? Because I can't. Assuming that God exists is assuming that some religious interpretation of a metaphysical creator is correct, and even if it isn't a specific religious depiction of that creator, it's still based in the world of religion. You can't talk about God in a non-religious way. And if that's the case, then you could make a very solid argument that including God in the pledge is going against the First Amendment, specifically in regards to Congress making no law respecting an establishment of religion.

 

[Zaap]

If "god" is meaningless, not a proposition I'm adverse to, then can we say the same about all the other words in the pledge or even those in the Constitution? One group had a meaning in mind when they proposed adding the words "under god" to the pledge so perhaps another group has a similar meaning in mind when proposing to remove the words?

If the pledge were a law, carrying some kind of fine for not obeying it, and actually establishing some kind of state religion, I'd be right there with you saying lets get rid of it. I mean frankly, we can get rid of it, I don't care. Most people don't care. Most kids dont care. It was just a drill that was supposed to instill a sense of community in kids, but virtually no one but paranoid athiests take anything about it all that seriously.

Im all for just ditching the thing. I just find it funny that people scared of a word make such a big deal over it. Lets get rid of it and then paranoid athiests can get back to doing something more productive...like bitching about "In God We Trust" on currency.

 

[Paratus]

How dare you!!

You mentioned a word I don't believe in!!!!! You should know I don't believe in it, because I spend tons of time and effort railing against unicorns, making sure everyone knows I don't believe in them, trying to get that hated, vile, oppressive mythical creature banned from mention!! Don't you get it??!! I don't believe in unicorns!!! How dare you oppress me by bringing that word into this thread! It should be banned!!

I'm out of here to mount my 'Ban Unicorns' lawsuit, to prove to the world once and for all that I beleive so little in unicorns that I will hire lawyers and harass all the rest of society to ban that word once and for all so I never have to be oppressed by it again!! That's just how much I'm committed to not believing in unicorns and showing the world that they won't get me with those damn horsies with horns!!!!

Interesting.

Apparently Ironwing is the government. :hmm:

I for one welcome our new Ironwing overlords.

 

[IronWing]

Interesting.

Apparently Ironwing is the government. :hmm:

I for one welcome our new Ironwing overlords.

Those who survived would find an Ironwing government hilarious. It's just a bad idea, really.

 

[Zaap]

That said, can you think of a single way to use the phrase "one nation under God" without ANY religious implication? Because I can't. Assuming that God exists is assuming that some religious interpretation of a metaphysical creator is correct, and even if it isn't a specific religious depiction of that creator, it's still based in the world of religion. You can't talk about God in a non-religious way. And if that's the case, then you could make a very solid argument that including God in the pledge is going against the First Amendment, specifically in regards to Congress making no law respecting an establishment of religion.

I personally just never saw the phrase "under god" as religious.

Its like in a court of law, you're made to swear to tell the truth "so help me god..." and even *gasp!!* with your hand on a bible or other religious text.

I just see that as the societal equivalent of a really big "pinky swear". That's pretty much what they could replace the whole process with... "do you swear to tell the truth? Pinky swear?"

I just see it as a way society has chosen to say "this is important, so swear on some big, grandeous concept." Its not actually advocating that anyone believe in that concept nor is it the state establishing a religion or even endorsing one. Its all just formality.

Every time someone exclaims "OMG!" or swears "Goddammit!"or various forms of "Jesus!" most aren't actually crying out to their religious icon or asking their believed deity to strike down non believers, they've just become expressions used by the society.

I always saw under god as the same sort of thing as in the courtroom... its just underlining that something is important. People use terms like "God bless...." and other such phrases all the time without any real religious significance.

Even In God We Trust on money is nothing more than a pat phrase, no more harmful than New Order Of The Ages in Latin is.

 

[shira]

Good luck. The house voted 396-9 in 2011 to reaffirm &#8216;In God We Trust&#8217; as our national motto. The Senate did it in 2006.

According to a 2003 joint poll by USA Today, CNN, and Gallup, 90% of Americans support the inscription "In God We Trust" on U.S. coins. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_we_trust

Sorry but this goes beyond the religious right. And this suit is just plain stupid. It is just some kid being &#8216;subjected to hearing the words &#8220;under God&#8221;&#8217; Nobody is forcing anyone to say anything. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette Close your fucking ears if you don't like it.

No. I think a better solution is to allow students to replace the word "God" with any non-obscene word of their choosing. And when some clever student utters the word "Satan" or "Beezlebug" (or whatever) instead of "God" during the pledge, the other students and teachers can "close [their] fucking ears if [they] don't like it."

Of course you agree, right?

 

[Zaap]

^ sure. Why not? Pick any word you like. Do those words scare you or hold some power over you? You're offended? Why?

 

[alzan]

I personally just never saw the phrase "under god" as religious.

Its like in a court of law, you're made to swear to tell the truth "so help me god..." and even *gasp!!* with your hand on a bible or other religious text.

I just see that as the societal equivalent of a really big "pinky swear". That's pretty much what they could replace the whole process with... "do you swear to tell the truth? Pinky swear?"

I just see it as a way society has chosen to say "this is important, so swear on some big, grandeous concept." Its not actually advocating that anyone believe in that concept nor is it the state establishing a religion or even endorsing one. Its all just formality.

Every time someone exclaims "OMG!" or swears "Goddammit!"or various forms of "Jesus!" most aren't actually crying out to their religious icon or asking their believed deity to strike down non believers, they've just become expressions used by the society.

I always saw under god as the same sort of thing as in the courtroom... its just underlining that something is important. People use terms like "God bless...." and other such phrases all the time without any real religious significance.

Even In God We Trust on money is nothing more than a pat phrase, no more harmful than New Order Of The Ages in Latin is.

There is a secular choice:

https://ffrf.org/faq/state-church/item/14022-jury-oaths

"If you are testifying at a trial or hearing, you also have right to affirm in most states. If you are given an oath with a deity in it, and a bible is held up for you to place your hand on, inform the judge that you need to make an affirmation (and mention that you would be glad to place your hand on the U.S. Constitution instead!). It is unfortunate that the onus falls on you to object, and thus to single yourself out as a nonbeliever, or at least a non-swearer, often in front of a jury. Some enlightened judges have dropped religious oaths entirely, but that is rare."

Was that the reasoning behind the proponent of the phrase being added?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_we_trust

See especially the History section.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Well since its just a word that means the same thing, we shall hence for change the pledge of allegiance to say Allah instead of God. Shouldnt change anything right? It means the same thing.

Nice try at being cute...
Taken as just words -- they do mean the same thing!
yet if you ask
some Christians or some Muslims do we worship the same God? The answer will be no or could be yes......

When you throw in the human element then you get issues.
http://www.arabicbible.com/for-christians/1810-the-word-allah-and-islam.html

The term Allah (Arabic: &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607;, All&#257;h) is the standard Arabic word for God and is most likely derived from a contraction of the Arabic article al- and il&#257;h, which means "deity or god" to al-l&#257;h meaning "the [sole] deity, God." There is another theory that traces the etymology of the word to the Aramaic Al&#257;h&#257;.

Today's Arabic speakers from all religious backgrounds (Muslims, Christians, and Jews) use the word Allah to mean God. In pre-Islamic Arabia, pagan Meccans used Allah as a reference to the creator-god, possibly the supreme deity.

The first-known translation of the Bible into Arabic, which took place in the 9th century, uses the word Allah for God (1). In fact, Arab Christians were using the word Allah for God prior to the dawn of Islam, and it is important to note that they were using it in place of Elohim, but not in place of Yahweh. That means Allah is a generic word for God, but not the personal name of God. (Radical Muslims in the West claim that Allah, not Yahweh or any other Bible name, is the name of the one true God.)

As an example closer to home, Christians and non-Christians alike use the word God in English, but that does not make the God of the Bible the same as the god of the Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, or others. Another example is that when irreverent people use the expression “Oh my God!” in their day-to-day communications, they are not referring to the God of the Bible when they invoke that term.

 

[schmuckley]

This is what's dividing the nation. People who don't believe are no longer rolling over and taking it.

It's not the original text, and was added at a time where it united as a nation. If USA remains stuck in the past, then divided we'll fall.

You mean stuck in the past when Commies were rounded up and dealt with?
Forward! we go..right into the abyss.
One of the Soviet tactics for undermining the US was/is to remove religion.
It seems there's a LOT of that type of sentiment on here.
If USA embraces your type of thinking, then divided we'll fall.
Fortunately there's quite a bit fewer people who think the way you do.
Religion has held this country together for more than 200 years.One by one
rights and freedoms are being stripped away.99% of the founding fathers were Christian.This is a Christian-based country.

 

[sandorski]

You mean stuck in the past when Commies were rounded up and dealt with?
Forward! we go..right into the abyss.
One of the Soviet tactics for undermining the US was/is to remove religion.
It seems there's a LOT of that type of sentiment on here.
If USA embraces your type of thinking, then divided we'll fall.
Fortunately there's quite a bit fewer people who think the way you do.
Religion has held this country together for more than 200 years.One by one
rights and freedoms are being stripped away.99% of the founding fathers were Christian.This is a Christian-based country.

Total load of shit. The Commies are gone btw.