ATi 4870/4850 Review Thread

[lopri]

This is something I've been curious about. The relationship between frame buffer vs bandwidth. This question arose from my experience of HD 3850 (256MB) and 8800 GT SLI (512MB each).

It's important to note that there just aren't many games that fills up 512MB of memory by design in a given frame. We've seen something similar to this from the Asassin's Creed debacle. For instance, under DX10.1, apparently some of the frame buffers can be re-used for post-processing (which still have to be filled in the memory), thus AMD cards benefited from it. Say, in a hypothetical situation:

- Card A (512MB): constantly (quickly) moves or reuses 300MB of buffer efficiently thanks to extremely high bandwidth and smart design
- Card B (1GB): slow to switch frame buffers or constantly redraws same buffers again and again (brute force)

Of course there is a case where absolute amount of memory is needed (such as Qual's texture mod). If ONE frame needs more than 500MB of physical RAM to be drawn, then 512MB card will suffer badly. In this case the 1GB is necessary. But my experience, as well as what others say, is that NV card has a problem with memory management. Especially in newer titles and DX10 titles.

Whether this is a hardware issue or drivers issue isn't still clear to me. For instance, ForceWare 175 improved alot in this regard compared to ForceWare 169 in my experience.

Anyway, I'm planning to get a 4870 (512MB or 1GB, whichever I find first) so I will make sure to test it out on my 30" and let you guys know.

 

[chewietobbacca]

I think its hard to compare across architectures as well. For instance, the 3800 cards don't seem to suffer from being 512MB or 1GB or 256MB nearly as much as G92 does (see 8800GT 256mb)

Anyways, I do think that ATI pulled one of the most secretive GPU launches in a while. Think about it: we had the GT200 CAD files a month before launch for god's sake. However, with ATI, up until less than a week before launch, we weren't sure whether:

-Ringbus or hub approach
-480SP's or 800 SP's
-16, 32, or 40 TMU's
-RBE Z clocks
-Transistor count

And much more. Some believed there was no way you could fit all that in 260mm^2 and yet ATI fit all of those things + architecture changes + improvements all the while claiming the 4850 was to fight the 8800GT and the 4870 was against the 9800GTX. Apparently, fight meant beat them pretty thoroughly.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Originally posted by: nkdesistyle

Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles
Amazing news for PC gaming...intense competition finally back in the video card market.

GTX 280 - while it commands a massive price it is finally a true ultra high end single card/gpu solution since the 8800GTX/Ultra (and I guess the 2900XT ) [win nVidia]

4870 - competes extremely well with the GTX260 for 75% of the cost [win AMD]

4850 - caused nVidia to paper launch the GTX+ and drastically cut the prices to the 9800 series in order to keep this segment from being the runaway no-brainer that the 4870 appears to be [advantage AMD]

now we start getting into the cluster fuck of the 8800GT, 8800GS, 9600GT, 9600GSO, 3870, and 3850...a group starting as low as ~$80 (generally after rebates/sales/deals, and prices are bound to keep dropping across the board here) offering an amazing level of performance rarely seen previously at such price points (and never with such diversity and choice as we have now). Looks like nVidia holds the advantage here, however things could change when the 4600 series hits. [advantage nVidia]

LOL I agree with everything you said, but how the hell in the world NVIDIA has Advantage, common man give the RED team some credit, It is all Ati now, go to hard forum, they are nvidia fanboys there and they are turning over to red team, Money talks my friend, and when you get your money's worth there is no better purchase, what you get fo 300 is the 90% of Nvidia performance, for half the price, Advantage ATI. if ATi respects the hard money I earn and gives me best performance at the point, I would happily spend it on their product.

We were rich as hell 2 years ago and now everything is gone after job losses and trouble ecomony, I used to blow money on graphic cards and ultra sli stuff, but let me tell you when you have to work your butt off for money you wanna get every penny's worth, ask that person would they get 85-90% of a 650 dollar product for 300 or no?

I don't think you can agree with everything I've said when I'm pretty sure you didn't understand what I said...

nVidia has the indisputable performance leader with the GTX 280 [a clear win for nVidia]

AMD's 4870 dominates its $300 price point and competes favorably with the $400 GTX 260 [a clear win for AMD]

AMD's 4850 would have dominated its $200 price point IF nVidia had not issued price cuts on its 9800 line and introduced the 9800GTX+ [a close/contested win for AMD]

Then there's the lower end which you seem to completely neglect, or perhaps not understand at all. AMD only released two new products - for two specific price points. If I have only $150 to spend I cannot get anything better than an 8800GT from AMD (yet) at that price point - yes, the 3870 is an acceptable alternative, but it isn't truly on par. nVidia also has more choices meaning they'll be more likely have a product that offers a price or price/performance that trumps an AMD alternative. Two things can change that, and that's price drops on the 3800s and the introduction of the 4600s. But until either or both of those things happen it is nVidia that has the advantage in this segment [a close/contested win for nVidia]

I don't have to give AMD any more credit than they deserve, I'm not a blind fanboy like you are coming across as. I make my judgments objectively and pick the parts that best fit my requisites. Tomorrow (or later today rather) I hope to receive my own 4850, UPS man missed me the first attempt because I was not here...unfortunately it looks like they intend to make the 2nd attempt at the same time (when I'm not home )

 

[GoodToGo]

Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles
Amazing news for PC gaming...intense competition finally back in the video card market.

GTX 280 - while it commands a massive price it is finally a true ultra high end single card/gpu solution since the 8800GTX/Ultra (and I guess the 2900XT ) [win nVidia]

4870 - competes extremely well with the GTX260 for 75% of the cost [win AMD]

4850 - caused nVidia to paper launch the GTX+ and drastically cut the prices to the 9800 series in order to keep this segment from being the runaway no-brainer that the 4870 appears to be [advantage AMD]

now we start getting into the cluster fuck of the 8800GT, 8800GS, 9600GT, 9600GSO, 3870, and 3850...a group starting as low as ~$80 (generally after rebates/sales/deals, and prices are bound to keep dropping across the board here) offering an amazing level of performance rarely seen previously at such price points (and never with such diversity and choice as we have now). Looks like nVidia holds the advantage here, however things could change when the 4600 series hits. [advantage nVidia]

Umm the 4870GX2 hasnt come out yet. Plus this is the 512MB version, lets see what the 1GB version can do...

 

[Toonces]

Originally posted by: Terren @ NCIX.com
Stock will be rolling in over the next few days - Powercolor looks like they'll be first to land on our docks with Visiontek to follow later this week and Diamond to be available next Monday

Well, it looks like availability of the 4870's will be a little sooner than July 8th!

 

[lopri]

Originally posted by: chewietobbacca
I think its hard to compare across architectures as well. For instance, the 3800 cards don't seem to suffer from being 512MB or 1GB or 256MB nearly as much as G92 does (see 8800GT 256mb)

And actually if you look at Anand's charts, 512MB HD 4870 beats 768MB 8800 GTX most of the time @2560x1600, and trades blows with 896MB GTX 260 @2560x1600. Something to think about.

 

[GoodToGo]

Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles

Originally posted by: nkdesistyle

Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles

Then there's the lower end which you seem to completely neglect, or perhaps not understand at all. AMD only released two new products - for two specific price points. If I have only $150 to spend I cannot get anything better than an 8800GT from AMD (yet) at that price point - yes, the 3870 is an acceptable alternative, but it isn't truly on par. nVidia also has more choices meaning they'll be more likely have a product that offers a price or price/performance that trumps an AMD alternative. Two things can change that, and that's price drops on the 3800s and the introduction of the 4600s. But until either or both of those things happen it is nVidia that has the advantage in this segment [a close/contested win for nVidia]

I don't have to give AMD any more credit than they deserve, I'm not a blind fanboy like you are coming across as. I make my judgments objectively and pick the parts that best fit my requisites. Tomorrow (or later today rather) I hope to receive my own 4850, UPS man missed me the first attempt because I was not here...unfortunately it looks like they intend to make the 2nd attempt at the same time (when I'm not home )

Umm how does Nvidia win the $200 market? There are yet no reviews of this "9800GTX+-+". It is not 10.1 compatible. With AA turned on, the 4850 beats the 9800GTX hands down. Plus the 9800 does not pass audio over HDMI. If you dont know the facts, that's fine. Dont call others fanboys or proclaim yourself not to be one....:roll:

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Originally posted by: GoodToGo

Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles
Amazing news for PC gaming...intense competition finally back in the video card market.

GTX 280 - while it commands a massive price it is finally a true ultra high end single card/gpu solution since the 8800GTX/Ultra (and I guess the 2900XT ) [win nVidia]

4870 - competes extremely well with the GTX260 for 75% of the cost [win AMD]

4850 - caused nVidia to paper launch the GTX+ and drastically cut the prices to the 9800 series in order to keep this segment from being the runaway no-brainer that the 4870 appears to be [advantage AMD]

now we start getting into the cluster fuck of the 8800GT, 8800GS, 9600GT, 9600GSO, 3870, and 3850...a group starting as low as ~$80 (generally after rebates/sales/deals, and prices are bound to keep dropping across the board here) offering an amazing level of performance rarely seen previously at such price points (and never with such diversity and choice as we have now). Looks like nVidia holds the advantage here, however things could change when the 4600 series hits. [advantage nVidia]

Umm the 4870GX2 hasnt come out yet. Plus this is the 512MB version, lets see what the 1GB version can do...

Umm when those products get reviewed/hit the market I'll revise my own conclusions like I always do.

 

[Hauk]

Originally posted by: gigahertz20

Originally posted by: Sylvanas
Sweet it is what we expected, and then theres more to come with the 4870X2....now to make my mind up on which one to get.

Also Hardware Canucks review is up they tested the 4870 with an HR-03 GT and saw near a 40c drop in load temps :thumbsup:

Holy crap, that is a ridiculous drop in temperatures. Either the Thermalright HR-03 GT is just that great of a GPU cooler or the standard heatsink/fan on the 4870 is just that horrible. Going from 82C to 43C at load and 55C to 33C at idle, just from an after market cooler is crazy! I was hoping to see some overclocking scores after they mounted the Thermalright on it, but nope

Though other aftermarket coolers may yield impressive results, the Thermalright is that good a cooler. I had an HR-03 Plus on an 8800 GTX and loved it.

 

[Hauk]

Originally posted by: ddarko

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
ATI has price/performance with the 4870, NV still has the performance crown. Pretty much what we expected...except some were claiming 4870 would actually beat 280.

Really? Before these launches, people were expecting that a $650 card would get beat even once by a $300 card? Bioshock at 1680x1050, 1920x1200, 2560x1600:

GTX280: 109.2, 96.7, 63.9
4870: 118.9, 107.7, 70.2

Sure, it's only one game and but it's a popular game and the fact that it happens at all demonstrates you're unqualified statement is simply wrong: 4870 actually can and does beat the 280. I'm not aware of a card ever before in ANY game beating another card that costs over twice as much. It's an unprecedent milestone.

This guy's been itching to thread crap, don't give him the satisfaction. Sure would be nice to keep this latest thread free of that BS..

 

[sourthings]

Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles

Originally posted by: nkdesistyle

Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles
Amazing news for PC gaming...intense competition finally back in the video card market.

GTX 280 - while it commands a massive price it is finally a true ultra high end single card/gpu solution since the 8800GTX/Ultra (and I guess the 2900XT ) [win nVidia]

4870 - competes extremely well with the GTX260 for 75% of the cost [win AMD]

4850 - caused nVidia to paper launch the GTX+ and drastically cut the prices to the 9800 series in order to keep this segment from being the runaway no-brainer that the 4870 appears to be [advantage AMD]

now we start getting into the cluster fuck of the 8800GT, 8800GS, 9600GT, 9600GSO, 3870, and 3850...a group starting as low as ~$80 (generally after rebates/sales/deals, and prices are bound to keep dropping across the board here) offering an amazing level of performance rarely seen previously at such price points (and never with such diversity and choice as we have now). Looks like nVidia holds the advantage here, however things could change when the 4600 series hits. [advantage nVidia]

LOL I agree with everything you said, but how the hell in the world NVIDIA has Advantage, common man give the RED team some credit, It is all Ati now, go to hard forum, they are nvidia fanboys there and they are turning over to red team, Money talks my friend, and when you get your money's worth there is no better purchase, what you get fo 300 is the 90% of Nvidia performance, for half the price, Advantage ATI. if ATi respects the hard money I earn and gives me best performance at the point, I would happily spend it on their product.

We were rich as hell 2 years ago and now everything is gone after job losses and trouble ecomony, I used to blow money on graphic cards and ultra sli stuff, but let me tell you when you have to work your butt off for money you wanna get every penny's worth, ask that person would they get 85-90% of a 650 dollar product for 300 or no?

I don't think you can agree with everything I've said when I'm pretty sure you didn't understand what I said...

nVidia has the indisputable performance leader with the GTX 280 [a clear win for nVidia]

AMD's 4870 dominates its $300 price point and competes favorably with the $400 GTX 260 [a clear win for AMD]

AMD's 4850 would have dominated its $200 price point IF nVidia had not issued price cuts on its 9800 line and introduced the 9800GTX+ [a close/contested win for AMD]

Then there's the lower end which you seem to completely neglect, or perhaps not understand at all. AMD only released two new products - for two specific price points. If I have only $150 to spend I cannot get anything better than an 8800GT from AMD (yet) at that price point - yes, the 3870 is an acceptable alternative, but it isn't truly on par. nVidia also has more choices meaning they'll be more likely have a product that offers a price or price/performance that trumps an AMD alternative. Two things can change that, and that's price drops on the 3800s and the introduction of the 4600s. But until either or both of those things happen it is nVidia that has the advantage in this segment [a close/contested win for nVidia]

I don't have to give AMD any more credit than they deserve, I'm not a blind fanboy like you are coming across as. I make my judgments objectively and pick the parts that best fit my requisites. Tomorrow (or later today rather) I hope to receive my own 4850, UPS man missed me the first attempt because I was not here...unfortunately it looks like they intend to make the 2nd attempt at the same time (when I'm not home )

4870 is 85-90% the performance of the GTX 280 for HALF the cost. When the 4870x2 card is released it's safe to say it is going to be the performance leader and still cost less than a GTX 280, of course by then and likely very soon, the 280 is going to have to drop in price for the poor performance it offers at it's price.

The 4870 does not compete favourably with the GTX 260, it out-performs it and is a better card. Again cheaper, costing $100 less than the 260 and giving more performance.

At the $200 mark the 4850 again is the best card, equalling the vapourware 9800gtx+ and outperforming it with AA turned on, which most gamers use these days. And ATI is releasing OC versions of the 4850 which will beat the 9800gtx+ all round.

If you can only afford to spend $150 then buy an 8800gt. Although likely in a short while the 4850 will be sub $200 in price.

AMD has won this round of video card releases, it's really nice to see as nvidia has been milking g80 and have been caught with their pants down.

For all of us it means prices will fall and while it looks like NV will not be able to catch up to the 4870X2 because a GX2 type card is not going to be possible with the GT200 Chip, die shrunk or not. At least we know there will be some effort put into making a chip that can really be seen as a huge performance jump for the next refresh in order to get back on top, if they can.

 

[Aberforth]

SteelSix, is HR-03 Plus compatible with 4870? I have one for my old GTX.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Originally posted by: GoodToGo
Umm how does Nvidia win the $200 market?

They don't and I've clearly stated this twice...

There are yet no reviews of this "9800GTX+-+".

Yes there are, many of the 4870/4850 reviews include 9800GTX+ results including the one here on Anandtech.

It is not 10.1 compatible. With AA turned on, the 4850 beats the 9800GTX hands down. Plus the 9800 does not pass audio over HDMI.

Yes these are some of the reasons why I consider the 4850 to maintain an edge over the 9800. However it isn't as clear cut as your generalization that turning AA on is automatically going to make the 4850 faster in all games.

If you dont know the facts, that's fine. Dont call others fanboys or proclaim yourself not to be one....:roll:

You've clearly gone awry somewhere, but you should probably take your own advice...

I also never flat out call him a fanboy, however his his lumping of the $200 4850 and $300 4870 to somehow include their success in niches they simply do not exist are certainly actions of a fanboy - how is AMD the all encompassing, hands down, undisputed winner of everything when they don't command the top performing product and they have yet to do anything to change the lower end of the mid range? Last I checked, AMD was playing second fiddle with their 3800 series to the G92/G94 based GeForce products in the same price range. Do the 4800 cards have some sort of magic that lets them somehow directly change things for their last generation ancestors?

The difference between a fanboy and an objective consumer is that the fanboys will see what they want to see and not necessarily what is actually there (much like how you're bizarrely going after me as if I'm an enemy to your precious AMD when I make it quite clear that I'm thrilled with what they're doing and have even purchased a 4850...).

 

[Cookie Monster]

ATi has some very good memory managament and compression algoritms, i doubt 1GB would actually yield any performance increases except maybe in some situations that it actually runs out of framebuffer. (Some where in the realm of 25x16, loads of AA/AF and such, but by then, performance will be close to crawling)

 

[Hauk]

Originally posted by: Aberforth
SteelSix, is HR-03 Plus compatible with 4870? I have one for my old GTX.

If they used an HR-03 GT, the Plus is likely not compatible. On their site the GT is compatible with 3870 series so I'm betting it's GT for 4870..

 

[Aberforth]

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
ATi has some very good memory managament and compression algoritms, i doubt 1GB would actually yield any performance increases except maybe in some situations that it actually runs out of framebuffer. (Some where in the realm of 25x16, loads of AA/AF and such, but by then, performance will be close to crawling)

World in conflict easily occupies more than 512 MB VRAM @ 1920 in DX10,fortunately Vista has built-in video paging that constantly frees up VRAM by moving paged data to the main RAM.

 

[Aberforth]

Originally posted by: SteelSix

Originally posted by: Aberforth
SteelSix, is HR-03 Plus compatible with 4870? I have one for my old GTX.

If they used an HR-03 GT, the Plus is likely not compatible. On their site the GT is compatible with 3870 series so I'm betting it's GT for 4870..

awww...damm I have to buy one now, can't wait to OC it

 

[Hauk]

Man I was considering using my 4850's in a couple builds and crossfiring some 4870's but that power draw difference between the two configs is heavy. Was surprised to see how power hungry the 4870 is over 4850.

Hmm, what to do. I think I may slap some aftermarket cooling on my 4850's, clock em to 700 and sit tight till 4870 X2. Not sure though. Damn it! I'm sure I'll lose sleep over this one...

 

[MarcVenice]

Bunnyfubbles, most of what you say I could agree with, but I think AMD is even more of a winner having a $300 card outperforming Nvidia's 400$ card, and performning near Nvidia's $650 card, at like 80-85%, and sometimes beating it. It goes past owning the 200-300$ price point. Very little people will want to shell out $650 for a product when they can buy 80% of it's performance for half the money.

 

[ati666]

can any confirm if ATI is still doing 45 angle veriant aniso filttering like on rv670 or does the new 4870 have a completely angle independent aniso filter like g80/g92?

thanx

 

[Cookie Monster]

I think its the same as RV670.

edit - That being said, alot of reviews didnt even look at the new UVD capabilities.

 

[BFG10K]

Yes, it's the same.

Also something is wrong with Anand's 16xQ screenshot as it has atrocious IQ. It looks worse than 4x. :Q

 

[Cookie Monster]

When i was reading it, it wasnt even up there. Time to go check it out

edit - dont think they enabled 16xQ properly. Would've been nice to add in 8xS, and 16xS modes too. I still prefer 8xS compared to 8xMSAA. What you reckon BFG?

 

[Aberforth]

Use this PSU calculator if anyone wants to calculate PSU requirements for your PC. I hope 4870 CF works with my 800W PSU.

 

[JPB]

.

GTX 280 - while it commands a massive price it is finally a true ultra high end single card/gpu solution since the 8800GTX/Ultra (and I guess the 2900XT ) [win nVidia]

4870 - competes extremely well with the GTX260 for 75% of the cost [win AMD]

4850 - caused nVidia to paper launch the GTX+ and drastically cut the prices to the 9800 series in order to keep this segment from being the runaway no-brainer that the 4870 appears to be [advantage AMD]

Please explain why the highlighted part is a win for Nvidia ? Don't they actually have to sell those cards at that price for it to be a win ?

Now don't get me wrong, but if they drop in price, I may be tempted to pick one up as well just to play with. But the GTX 280 would have to hit $450-$499 and the GTX 260 would have to hit $350-$399.

Then and only THEN would it be a win for NV.