ATi 4870 X2 (R700) previews thread

[LittleNemoNES]

Originally posted by: nRollo

Originally posted by: hooflung
The GTX280 SLI barely beats the X2 in HL2 and that is only at the 30" monitor resolution. The 22" and 24" winner in HL2 is the ATI. Same thing with Oblivion and Quake Wars. I think if you want to redefine winning to mean at 'the best of the best of the best resolutions that only the most eccentric enthusiests participate in' as a win for the SLI GX2 then your full of it.

Hmmm, I game at 25X16, so does n7, so does Derek Wilson, so does Kyle Bennett, and lots of other people. I bet Anand games at 25X16.

We're all "the most eccentric enthusiasts"? Go figure- I thought we were just people who valued image quality and know a $500 card is wasted at 16X10.

So if we're appealing to the bargain hunters and lower resolutions here, how are we going to justify the extra money and wait for a 4870X2 when a GTX280 for $449 shreds all the games at 16X10 and 19X12 and has no multicard issues at all?

Because we need 120 fps instead of 100fps? Don't know if that will fly.....

Because we want to use 430W instead of 300W? Probably not....

Because we want to need a case that can shed 91C instead of 81C at load? No, not that either....

Because we want 52dB of noise instead of 45dB of noise? Don't think so.....

Because we want PhysX in the 50 games scheduled to launch by the end of next year? Well, that's an unknown as well, if ATi adapts for that.

Source for heat, power, noise data

So, at the resolutions you claim everyone has, what is your justification that a buyer wait 1 month, deal with more heat, noise, power, and the downsides of Crossfire compared to buying a GTX280 today for less than the 4870X2 is supposed to launch at?

As I see it, we have mostly meaningless framerate differences in terms of gameplay, DX10.1 not in use yet, and probably some games where 8X AA is more playable.

4870X2 kicks ass and looks good, but not the "slam dunk" you're making it out to be, especially at those resolutions.

You actually make good points, IMO (obviously we know where you're coming from...)

When I saw the power consumption I was immediately turned off.
It is HOT AS HELL in Miami during the Summer (which we are in the middle of) so I don't think I could stand all the heat and subsequent noise a 4870X2 would make.

I think both cards (4870X2 and GTX280) are winners. It all depends on what you value.
X2 is a more brute force approach but it seems to work well.
So far it doesn't seem like micro stutter has been fixed

 

[Hauk]

nRollo makes some good points, the most important IMO is heat and power. They're not subtle differences either. And for what, 20 frames when it's moot over 60 anyway?

91c or higher in a poorly ventillated case? That's hot, too hot for my liking. I'd be maxing fanspeed if it helped. I'd even be considering dual Zalman VF900's or something. Then I'd have to run my 120mm exaust fans on high to compensate. More noise, more power.

It'd be a slam dunk for me if it wasn't for heat and power. Time to decide..

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: nRollo
So if we're appealing to the bargain hunters and lower resolutions here, how are we going to justify the extra money and wait for a 4870X2 when a GTX280 for $449 shreds all the games at 16X10 and 19X12 and has no multicard issues at all?

As I see it, we have mostly meaningless framerate differences in terms of gameplay, DX10.1 not in use yet, and probably some games where 8X AA is more playable.

Huh?? The X2 thrashes a SINGLE 280. You bring up the performance of 280 SLI but then list advantages of a SINGLE 280 (I guess since getting 280 SLI performance means you lose all those other advantages).

4870X2 kicks ass and looks good, but not the "slam dunk" you're making it out to be, especially at those resolutions.

It may not be a slam dunk against 280 SLI but it sure craps all over a single 280 which is what it's supposed to compete with anyway. Those benchmarks you linked to were 280 SLI remember? I'd rather pay $500-$550 for an X2 rather than $900-$1000 for 280 SLI...that's for sure.

 

[bryanW1995]

Originally posted by: lopri

Originally posted by: tigersty1e

The thing that's so scary about the reviews is that the 9800GX2 and the 3870x2 perform so poorly after only being out for 7 months.

Agreed.

they are old tech cards, they're the same as 7950gx2 was. r700, otoh, is probably going to be around for a while, in fact it should be king of the hill until nvidia either figures out how to make a sandwich card (1 year + to get ddr5 and 256 bit on gt200 minimum imho) or the next gen from one or both camps comes out.

Hmm, ten cards but only seven reviews. Maybe we should have a competition to find the other three.

bfg, I know for sure that HOCP had 2 cards, maybe they shipped 2 of them to a couple other sites so they could try out crossfireX as well...

Best card out, which is sure to make some people upset. Especially the ones paid to be bias.

- posted by ackmed

you sure know how to bring up arguments from years past! let the bitterness die and just be happy that we all now have a.) choice, and b.) CHEAP high end performance

Originally posted by: nRollo

This is a valid thrashing for the GTX280 at HL2

This is a win for the GTX280 at ET QW

Care to take a look at those again?

Oh right 2560x1600...

1680x1050 is where most folks live.

- posted by the internet

um, do you really think that people using 4870x2 and/or gtx280 sli are gaming at 1680x1050????? Rollo has a very valid point here. Now, I wasn't too impressed with his noise/heat/cf scaling response earlier, I thought that was pretty weak. He did the best with what he had, but it just showed how dominant 4870x2 really is. However, if you honestly think that ANYBODY is going to go through the hassle of owning a 4870x2 and/or gtx 280sli to game at 16x10 then I have a bridge to sell you...it has a great view of san francisco bay...

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: nRollo
So if we're appealing to the bargain hunters and lower resolutions here, how are we going to justify the extra money and wait for a 4870X2 when a GTX280 for $449 shreds all the games at 16X10 and 19X12 and has no multicard issues at all?

As I see it, we have mostly meaningless framerate differences in terms of gameplay, DX10.1 not in use yet, and probably some games where 8X AA is more playable.

Huh?? The X2 thrashes a SINGLE 280. You bring up the performance of 280 SLI but then list advantages of a SINGLE 280 (I guess since getting 280 SLI performance means you lose all those other advantages).

4870X2 kicks ass and looks good, but not the "slam dunk" you're making it out to be, especially at those resolutions.

It may not be a slam dunk against 280 SLI but it sure craps all over a single 280 which is what it's supposed to compete with anyway. Those benchmarks you linked to were 280 SLI remember? I'd rather pay $500-$550 for an X2 rather than $900-$1000 for 280 SLI...that's for sure.

Ding Ding Ding! Winner! The amount of Nvidia biased homers we have on this forum is ridiuclous, the fact that most of them are moderators is even more disgusting.

The 4870X2 isn't supposed to compete with the 280SLI, they aren't even remotely in the same price range. It's supposed to compete with the 280 and it straight murders it in nearly every benchmark imaginable. There is absolutely no reason to get the 280 over the 4870X2, absolutely no reason.

All this talk about heat is kind of moot too since most people who buy these cards replace the HSF for better solutions. If your spending $500 on a graphics card, surely $30 on a quality HSF to eek out the last bit of performance isn't a big purchase.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: nRollo
So if we're appealing to the bargain hunters and lower resolutions here, how are we going to justify the extra money and wait for a 4870X2 when a GTX280 for $449 shreds all the games at 16X10 and 19X12 and has no multicard issues at all?

As I see it, we have mostly meaningless framerate differences in terms of gameplay, DX10.1 not in use yet, and probably some games where 8X AA is more playable.

Huh?? The X2 thrashes a SINGLE 280. You bring up the performance of 280 SLI but then list advantages of a SINGLE 280 (I guess since getting 280 SLI performance means you lose all those other advantages).

4870X2 kicks ass and looks good, but not the "slam dunk" you're making it out to be, especially at those resolutions.

It may not be a slam dunk against 280 SLI but it sure craps all over a single 280 which is what it's supposed to compete with anyway. Those benchmarks you linked to were 280 SLI remember? I'd rather pay $500-$550 for an X2 rather than $900-$1000 for 280 SLI...that's for sure.

The problem with your reply is you're blending two responses I made to different questions and acting as if they apply to each other, and they don't.

The SLi links you refer to were a specific response to a member saying the 4870X2 thrashing GTX280SLi "hurt" him. I showed him that in the benches we've seen, the 4870X2 mostly lost to the GTX280SLi at the highest settings tested.

The second post you try to combine with this said "25X16 is irrelevant. Only for odd balls. What really matters is the 16X10 and 19X12 benches!". So here my point was "OK, here are the pros/cons of the 4870X2 compared to a single GTX280. You tell me the upsides that make it the slam dunk you infer"

There are still some very good reasons to prefer single GPU to multi, especially at lower resolutions like 19X12.

 

[bryanW1995]

Originally posted by: OneOfTheseDays

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: nRollo
So if we're appealing to the bargain hunters and lower resolutions here, how are we going to justify the extra money and wait for a 4870X2 when a GTX280 for $449 shreds all the games at 16X10 and 19X12 and has no multicard issues at all?

As I see it, we have mostly meaningless framerate differences in terms of gameplay, DX10.1 not in use yet, and probably some games where 8X AA is more playable.

Huh?? The X2 thrashes a SINGLE 280. You bring up the performance of 280 SLI but then list advantages of a SINGLE 280 (I guess since getting 280 SLI performance means you lose all those other advantages).

4870X2 kicks ass and looks good, but not the "slam dunk" you're making it out to be, especially at those resolutions.

It may not be a slam dunk against 280 SLI but it sure craps all over a single 280 which is what it's supposed to compete with anyway. Those benchmarks you linked to were 280 SLI remember? I'd rather pay $500-$550 for an X2 rather than $900-$1000 for 280 SLI...that's for sure.

Ding Ding Ding! Winner! The amount of Nvidia biased homers we have on this forum is ridiuclous, the fact that most of them are moderators is even more disgusting.

The 4870X2 isn't supposed to compete with the 280SLI, they aren't even remotely in the same price range. It's supposed to compete with the 280 and it straight murders it in nearly every benchmark imaginable. There is absolutely no reason to get the 280 over the 4870X2, absolutely no reason.

All this talk about heat is kind of moot too since most people who buy these cards replace the HSF for better solutions. If your spending $500 on a graphics card, surely $30 on a quality HSF to eek out the last bit of performance isn't a big purchase.

um, I don't think that even the accelero s1 v2 is even going to be enough for this bad boy unless you throw on a good fan...

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: OneOfTheseDays

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: nRollo
So if we're appealing to the bargain hunters and lower resolutions here, how are we going to justify the extra money and wait for a 4870X2 when a GTX280 for $449 shreds all the games at 16X10 and 19X12 and has no multicard issues at all?

As I see it, we have mostly meaningless framerate differences in terms of gameplay, DX10.1 not in use yet, and probably some games where 8X AA is more playable.

Huh?? The X2 thrashes a SINGLE 280. You bring up the performance of 280 SLI but then list advantages of a SINGLE 280 (I guess since getting 280 SLI performance means you lose all those other advantages).

4870X2 kicks ass and looks good, but not the "slam dunk" you're making it out to be, especially at those resolutions.

It may not be a slam dunk against 280 SLI but it sure craps all over a single 280 which is what it's supposed to compete with anyway. Those benchmarks you linked to were 280 SLI remember? I'd rather pay $500-$550 for an X2 rather than $900-$1000 for 280 SLI...that's for sure.

Ding Ding Ding! Winner! The amount of Nvidia biased homers we have on this forum is ridiuclous, the fact that most of them are moderators is even more disgusting.

The 4870X2 isn't supposed to compete with the 280SLI, they aren't even remotely in the same price range. It's supposed to compete with the 280 and it straight murders it in nearly every benchmark imaginable. There is absolutely no reason to get the 280 over the 4870X2, absolutely no reason.

All this talk about heat is kind of moot too since most people who buy these cards replace the HSF for better solutions. If your spending $500 on a graphics card, surely $30 on a quality HSF to eek out the last bit of performance isn't a big purchase.

Hmm.

Are aftermarket HSFs for dual GPU solutions like 4870X2 plentiful? Links? They don't seem to have any at newegg, unless you want to bolt dual single GPU coolers on somehow and dump all 400w into the case.

Does it murder the GTX280 at Bioshock with AA when it can't even run AA?

Or how about at that other popular game Crysis that it loses at?

You say it wins "at every game imaginable" yet we've only seen about 7 tested. Last I checked there were 100s and 100s of games, and the 4870X2 requires a profile or AFR compatibility to provide scaling and performance above a GTX280.
Is it your position that all those 100s of games have profiles built into the drivers, or that forcing AFR on them is guaranteed to work? What do you base this position on? Links?

As for "absolutely no reason", how about the guy that needs a new case, power supply, or air conditioner to run a 4870X2? Are those not "reasons"?

How about guys like BFG10K, who won't run an AFR based solution of any sort due to input lag or microstutter, which he is sensitive to? Are those not reasons for him?

How about the people who OC their CPUs? Is the much higher temperature these things will radiate into the case not a reason for them?

How about money? The projected cost of 4870X2s is in "the $500s" from what we've seen. The GTX280 is at $449 MSRP now, which will likely mean some cheaper. Is saving money not a reason?

How about service? Does ATi have a vendor that offers double lifetime warranty to insure your investment? How about a step up program? Warrant you volt mods for double lifetime? Are these not reasons?

I don't know, I bet if I thought about this a while I could even come up with more, and yet you say there is "absolutely no reason".

Could you please reply to the ones I've given so I can understand? Thanks!

 

[Cookie Monster]

With GTX280s going for $449 officially with the X2 at $549 it puts quite abit of pressure on the X2 card. Some did argue about reviewers using OCed nVIDIA cards, but i dont see anything wrong in this. Loads of nVIDIA partners sell OCed cards at the same price levels as stock ones. Some of nVIDIA's partners support OCing and even 3rd party cooling so i dont see all this fuss about OCed cards being used.

In some instances GTX280 is at X2 level performance due to scaling. Since only a selected few out of a handful of games have been used for the preview, we will see just how well crossfire actually scales across a variety of titles.

On a side note im not surprised by the fact that the bridge chip wasn't something special though. Shared memory pool will probably be achieved at another time, somewhere in the near future. People were expecting too much imho.

 

[nRollo]

As this thread is primarily a 4870X2 review thread, I'm going to start a 4870X2 compared to GTX280 thread at request of mods.

Cookie-
The 4870X2 is exactly what I expected- 4870CF on a board. And that ain't bad- it's actually pretty kicking!

 

[bryanW1995]

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
With GTX280s going for $449 officially with the X2 at $549 it puts quite abit of pressure on the X2 card. Some did argue about reviewers using OCed nVIDIA cards, but i dont see anything wrong in this. Loads of nVIDIA partners sell OCed cards at the same price levels as stock ones. Some of nVIDIA's partners support OCing and even 3rd party cooling so i dont see all this fuss about OCed cards being used.

In some instances GTX280 is at X2 level performance due to scaling. Since only a selected few out of a handful of games have been used for the preview, we will see just how well crossfire actually scales across a variety of titles.

On a side note im not surprised by the fact that the bridge chip wasn't something special though. Shared memory pool will probably be achieved at another time, somewhere in the near future. People were expecting too much imho.

um, please provide an example of a $449 oc gtx 280. you said that gtx 280 is 449 offically, then later said that loads of nvidia partners sell oc'd cards at the same levels as stock ones. I'm not saying that oc cards won't eventually creep down to $449, but the stock units will be 419, 409, or even 399 by that point.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: nRollo
The problem with your reply is you're blending two responses I made to different questions and acting as if they apply to each other, and they don't.

You tell me the upsides that make it the slam dunk you infer

There are still some very good reasons to prefer single GPU to multi, especially at lower resolutions like 19X12.

Yes I know you were responding to 2 questions but from your post it seems only the 1st sentence was referring to high res. You see the part I highlighted in my original post? That "meaningless framerate difference"? You put that in the post (which refers to a 280 SLI setup) with all your other "Because we want..." points which referred to a SINGLE 280 obviously and never said that you were talking about high res for that part of the post.

I was just pointing out that it ISN"T a meaningless framerate difference compared to a SINGLE 280. In other words, you brought up good points of a single 280 but failed to mention that it gets destroyed in actual gameplay EVEN AT LOWER RESOLUTIONS.

In terms of upsides...lol, go read the links you provided (the chart not the graphs)...they show an X2 handily beating a 280 even at 1680x1050. At the high end, for a card to be a slam dunk it should be the performance leader...which it IS. I think most people looking for a card like that are willing to accept some of the drawbacks as long as the performance is there. For me the biggest drawback would be if it doesn't scale...but considering a 4870 is already very fast, it's not as big a deal anymore as it was with the 3870x2.

Come to think of it, most of the drawbacks you listed such as power, heat, and noise were the exact problems that the 280 had when it 1st came out but I guess it didn't matter to certain people since it was the single card performance leader. But now that those same problems affect the X2....:disgust:

 

[Cookie Monster]

Look at newegg for example. OCed 9800GTX at the same price levels as stock ones.

Obviously it will take some time for the MSRP of $449 to take effect as only a couple of cards are listed at $449 (for the GTX280). However looking at the cards all priced at $499 (the previous MSRP), you can see that there are some OCed cards at the same price (or very close) as stock ones. Like the XFX GTX280 going for $519 with a core clock of 670MHz.

 

[BFG10K]

Originally posted by: AmberClad

LegitReviews has another. So how many left unaccounted for is that?

There were three left: Rage3D had one, HardOCP had another (since they had two) and now we've found Legit Reviews. That's all of 'em.

Now we should be allowed into ATi?s chocolate factory.

 

[taltamir]

not enough min frame rate tests... or any micro-stutter testing at all...

 

[Sylvanas]

Originally posted by: taltamir
not enough min frame rate tests... or any micro-stutter testing at all...

Of the two sites that did do min framerate tests both reported, in nearly every test, min FPS suitably better than any single GPU GT200- in that case it would be a safe bet to assume you won't be running into 'FPS drops' especially since none of the reviews I have read mentioned such a thing.

 

[OCGuy]

I think the non-shared memory pool, and the so-so reviews have put a damper on the red-team.


Call me an NV guy all you want, but I have no problem saying ATI has the best single-card solution as of actual launch day. Thats a good thing. This will wake up NV...just like the 8 series woke up ATi. I dont know why thats a big deal for some people to admit, I love competition. I dont have stock in either one, but some people here act like they do.....

If NV could figure out a way to put two GT200 chips on one PCB, it would destroy a X2. However, im not positive they can do that and still make a nice margin.......even @ 55nm.

 

[BFG10K]

Originally posted by: n7
Sampsa working on a microstuttering review: http://www.xtremesystems.org/f...howthread.php?t=194808

I think we're going to find that it's not completely gone so much as it's minimal enough to be largely unnoticeable & not an issue.

Just my guess...we'll see.

My theory: look at the graphs. It's no coincidence the level of micro-stutter is ordered in rank of slowest to fastest where the slowest config (3870 X2) has the most micro-stutter while the fastest config (4870 CF/X2) has the least.

My current theory for micro-stutter is that the more GPU limited you are the more likely it'll happen as the second GPU's render time becomes a function of the CPU render time, not GPU render time.

In fact I think I've come up with a basic formula to predict when micro-stutter will happen.

This also shines new light on people picking up mid-range multi-GPU solutions as they will likely have very bad micro-stutter as each GPU is quite slow compared to a single faster one.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
If NV could figure out a way to put two GT200 chips on one PCB, it would destroy a X2.

I don't think this is true- GTX280 SLi doesn't destroy a 4870X2, so a "9900GX2" wouldn't either at current spec.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

There is absolutely no reason to get a GTX280 over a 4870x2. Absolutely no reason.

The 4870X2 is faster in nearly everything and will be more future proof.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: OneOfTheseDays
There is absolutely no reason to get a GTX280 over a 4870x2.

If they are the same price, I dont see how you could argue against that.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: nRollo

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
If NV could figure out a way to put two GT200 chips on one PCB, it would destroy a X2.

I don't think this is true- GTX280 SLi doesn't destroy a 4870X2, so a "9900GX2" wouldn't either at current spec.

IDK rollo...the one thing the GT200 has right now is the OC ability......a quality cooling solution (usually from the better partners, i.e. EVGA) and you can crank the crap out of the core of GT200....I dont think you could say the same for the new ATi cards...at least not yet. Maybe some of the better ATi partners will provide the cooling that will allow the DDR5 to stretch its OCing legs......they sure havent done it on the 4850 and 4870 in thier infancy (unless ive missed something)? ??

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Like I said before at the same or similar pricepoint there is NO reason to get a GTX280 over a 4870x2. It's a shame this forum is inundated with Nvidia fanboys and Nvidia payed trollsters, so the average person can't really see the truth.

 

[nkdesistyle]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
I think the non-shared memory pool, and the so-so reviews have put a damper on the red-team.


Call me an NV guy all you want, but I have no problem saying ATI has the best single-card solution as of actual launch day. Thats a good thing. This will wake up NV...just like the 8 series woke up ATi. I dont know why thats a big deal for some people to admit, I love competition. I dont have stock in either one, but some people here act like they do.....

If NV could figure out a way to put two GT200 chips on one PCB, it would destroy a X2. However, im not positive they can do that and still make a nice margin.......even @ 55nm.

I agree with everything you said until you came to your point of if there were 2 gt 200 on one pcb it would distroy x2, yes it would beat it in some games and lose in others as review say it, but destroying the x2 is out of question, when it scales this card beats the gtx 280 50/90% depending on the game and resolution so gtx 280 dual chip card would certainly match up and trade blows but I don't think I would say that it would destroy the x2.

 

[nkdesistyle]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: nRollo

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
If NV could figure out a way to put two GT200 chips on one PCB, it would destroy a X2.

I don't think this is true- GTX280 SLi doesn't destroy a 4870X2, so a "9900GX2" wouldn't either at current spec.

IDK rollo...the one thing the GT200 has right now is the OC ability......a quality cooling solution (usually from the better partners, i.e. EVGA) and you can crank the crap out of the core of GT200....I dont think you could say the same for the new ATi cards...at least not yet. Maybe some of the better ATi partners will provide the cooling that will allow the DDR5 to stretch its OCing legs......they sure havent done it on the 4850 and 4870 in thier infancy (unless ive missed something)? ??

-1

ddr5 overclocks 200mhz to 1100(so that is 200x4=800mhz) and my memory bandwidth goes to 140gb/sec, ddr5 is already overclocking like a monster on these cards and it is stretched pretty high as far as I know. scanned for artifacts with ati tool for half an hour and no artifacts, and I can get the core to 840 stable, but I am happy with 790 right now.