ATi 4870 X2 (R700) previews thread

[bryanW1995]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: toslat
@nRollo
You should check your own X2 v GTX280 poll thread where approx 50% of respondents said they will buy the X2 as opposed to only 15% for the GTX280 (even with price cuts).

Like I said, that poll is far from scientific. If you cant tell by the posts over the last month, id say a far majority on this site are extremely bias towards ATi. They arent just happy to have competition, they actually dont like NV...some of the comments you would only expect to find on some AMD fan site. (An example is the F*** Nvidia post a few posts up)

I think it has to do with "going against the man", kind of like all the college kids with thier Mac's.....

very true...I wasn't around here then, but I suspect that many people were happy to ditch their x1950xtx for an 8800gtx just to give the "other team" a chance again... in 6 months, a year, 18 mos, whatever time frame it is, nvidia will reclaim the performance crown and we'll be flooded by nvidia fan-boy posts saying things like "good job rollo for carrying the torch during our darkest hour" and maybe a few astute observers opining that "chizow really didn't help us much during ati's dominance, did he". Many of the nvidia fans will be ditching their 48x0 gpus for the latest and greatest, too, and there will be nothing wrong with that. If I was an amd fanboy I would have kept my head in the sand for the last 18 mos, so we really can't blame them for coming out now that their sun has risen again.

 

[extra]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: toslat
@nRollo
You should check your own X2 v GTX280 poll thread where approx 50% of respondents said they will buy the X2 as opposed to only 15% for the GTX280 (even with price cuts).

Like I said, that poll is far from scientific. If you cant tell by the posts over the last month, id say a far majority on this site are extremely bias towards ATi. They arent just happy to have competition, they actually dont like NV...some of the comments you would only expect to find on some AMD fan site. (An example is the F*** Nvidia post a few posts up)

I think it has to do with "going against the man", kind of like all the college kids with thier Mac's.....

This place an AMD fan site? Are you frigging kidding me? LoL.

99% of the people on this forum are just like me: fans of whatever the hell is the best product at the moment, and cheer when there is good competition and don't give two shits about which company it comes from unless the company pulls awful and unethical shenanigans or something weird.

AMD fan site? Go over to the processor forum. What was as little as a year and a half ago AMD dominated (because they performed better at the time and were a better buy) is now Intel dominated because.. gasp.. they have a more appealing product for us enthusiasts.

Right now, face it, Amdati has the more appealing video cards out. That WOULD change if Nvidia drastically reprices their offerings.

Everyone in here wanting to buy the amdati cards aren't doing so out of a particular loyalty for the company or because they "want amd to win". If the 280 somehow was $300 next week, people would go buy it in a heartbeat instead.

All this conspiracy theory fanboism shit needs to stop.

And rollo if you want to focus on the perks of the nvidia cards, do so based on things that actually make sense. Things like the gpu being used as a processor, things like folding at home, etc, which I understand the gt280 smokes the competition in. Prop up nvidia for better linux support (that is changing though). But it's okay to raise a glass for the competition when they do something right.

You would also do well to point out that the 260, if these price trends continue, will be an extremely appealing part for overclockers.

 

[toslat]

Originally posted by: nRollo

Originally posted by: toslat
@nRollo
You should check your own X2 v GTX280 poll thread where approx 50% of respondents said they will buy the X2 as opposed to only 15% for the GTX280 (even with price cuts).

Of interest though is your assertion that the 9800GX2 tops the 4870X2 in dual GPU single slot solutions - would like to see some links please.

On multi-GPU performance, most likely the dual 4870X2 will beat a tri SLI GTX280, given that a single 4870X2 trades blows with a GTX280 SLI. Dual 4870X2 doubles the potential of the 4870X2 while a tri-SLI gives only a 50% potential increase. Of course scaling will have the final say on this.

I think you should re-read my posts, and keep the concepts of "present" and "future" in mind.

Anyway, I'm done here.

I say "When ATi releases a first place card, I'll consider them in first place."

You say "ATi is going to release a first place card in the future, so they're in first place now."

Two different ways to look at it, you're welcome to your opinion.

If the 4870X2 performance is still in the future, then we can say all the reviewers made up the scores.

The card is real, as is the performance, and will be available to the consumer in the coming weeks. Whichever way, you cant hide under the paper launch for much longer. Wonder why you bothered reading the previews.

Anyways see you in a few weeks then.

 

[Ariste]

Originally posted by: nRollo

Originally posted by: toslat
@nRollo
You should check your own X2 v GTX280 poll thread where approx 50% of respondents said they will buy the X2 as opposed to only 15% for the GTX280 (even with price cuts).

Of interest though is your assertion that the 9800GX2 tops the 4870X2 in dual GPU single slot solutions - would like to see some links please.

On multi-GPU performance, most likely the dual 4870X2 will beat a tri SLI GTX280, given that a single 4870X2 trades blows with a GTX280 SLI. Dual 4870X2 doubles the potential of the 4870X2 while a tri-SLI gives only a 50% potential increase. Of course scaling will have the final say on this.

I think you should re-read my posts, and keep the concepts of "present" and "future" in mind.

Anyway, I'm done here.

I say "When ATi releases a first place card, I'll consider them in first place."

You say "ATi is going to release a first place card in the future, so they're in first place now."

Two different ways to look at it, you're welcome to your opinion.

Lol. Okay, Rollo. You got us. ATI isn't the top dog yet because their launch day is a few weeks away.

I wonder, though: what will you say when the 4870X2 does launch? Will you then admit that ATI is, present tense, on top?

Somehow I doubt it.

 

[Toonces]

Another review thread derailed, that would make three of the five 'official review threads' if I counted correctly?:disgust:

Locked
This one if it keeps up...
ATi 4xxx Series Review
ATi 4870/4850 Review Thread

Not Locked
nVidia GT200 Series Review Thread
NVIDIA 9800GTX+ Review Thread



Here's a nice way of breaking down a review thread:

1) First 20-50 posts, informative discussion about different reviews arguing merits and performance discrepancies between each.

2) Posts 50-75 people begin to extrapolate results to the larger picture, comparing similar performing cards.

3) Out of context quote creates multi-sentence rebuttal which introduces new 'information' about similar performing cards extraneous to first discussion.

4) Argument erupts as posters debate the validity of posts, posters, facts, opinions, breakfast cereals, and favourite colours.

5) 100-200 posts of above off topic arguing

6) Ibid

7) Thread locked


The quality of discussion has steadily declined and although I used to come to AT first for insightful analysis, especially in review threads like these, I find the downfall rather disheartening. I'm sorry to contribute to the derailing of this thread, maybe we could get some posts moved to try and keep things on topic?

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Ariste

Originally posted by: nRollo

Originally posted by: toslat
@nRollo
You should check your own X2 v GTX280 poll thread where approx 50% of respondents said they will buy the X2 as opposed to only 15% for the GTX280 (even with price cuts).

Of interest though is your assertion that the 9800GX2 tops the 4870X2 in dual GPU single slot solutions - would like to see some links please.

On multi-GPU performance, most likely the dual 4870X2 will beat a tri SLI GTX280, given that a single 4870X2 trades blows with a GTX280 SLI. Dual 4870X2 doubles the potential of the 4870X2 while a tri-SLI gives only a 50% potential increase. Of course scaling will have the final say on this.

I think you should re-read my posts, and keep the concepts of "present" and "future" in mind.

Anyway, I'm done here.

I say "When ATi releases a first place card, I'll consider them in first place."

You say "ATi is going to release a first place card in the future, so they're in first place now."

Two different ways to look at it, you're welcome to your opinion.

Lol. Okay, Rollo. You got us. ATI isn't the top dog yet because their launch day is a few weeks away.

I wonder, though: what will you say when the 4870X2 does launch? Will you then admit that ATI is, present tense, on top?

Somehow I doubt it.

I'll say they have the top AFR card on the market, and if two of them are consistently faster than three way at 25X16 with AA, I'll say ATi is on top of the multi GPU market for performance.

Which is not to say I'll pretend there are no differences between CF and SLi, but let's face it:

I like multi GPU and always have, so I'll give credit where it's due. From the looks of things it will be due on August 12th as the 4870X2 performance looks great.

I've always been in the "if I need a new psu or case I buy it" camp. I understand multi GPU gaming probably better than anyone else in this thread given my experience with:

Five (5) separate Voodoo2 SLi rigs
ATi Rage Fury Maxx
6600GT Sli
6800NU SLi
6800GT SLi
7800GTX Sli
7900GT SLi
7950GX2 Quad Sli
8800GTX SLi
8800 GTX 3 way SLi
9800GX2 Quad Sli
GTX280 SLi

I'm pretty well familiar with what multi GPU is and isn't, and although I realize multi involves tradeoffs, they've always been worth it for me.

 

[BFG10K]

Originally posted by: Sylvanas

Sampsa's review is out and is the first indication that the 'microstutter' is indeed fixed. Here is the translation as I understand it, he notes that each frame is rendered at 21.6-22.1ms intervals in Crysis opposed to 49.5 on the 3870X2, and a noticeable difference.

To truly confirm micro-stuttering is fixed he'd need to get a card that stutters (e.g. 3870 X2), get the framerate and then get the 4870 X2 down to a similar framerate and then check the variances.

If the 4870 X2 is running at a higher framerate because it is less GPU bound then this will automatically negate micro-stutter.

 

[ShadowOfMyself]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

Originally posted by: Sylvanas

Sampsa's review is out and is the first indication that the 'microstutter' is indeed fixed. Here is the translation as I understand it, he notes that each frame is rendered at 21.6-22.1ms intervals in Crysis opposed to 49.5 on the 3870X2, and a noticeable difference.

To truly confirm micro-stuttering is fixed he'd need to get a card that stutters (e.g. 3870 X2), get the framerate and then get the 4870 X2 down to a similar framerate and then check the variances.

If the 4870 X2 is running at a higher framerate because it is less GPU bound then this will automatically negate micro-stutter.

Isnt this kind of a moot point though? People who buy the 4870 X2 WILL have those high framerates, and according to you, not experience micro stuttering... So what exactly is the problem?

 

[ViRGE]

Guys, this thread is getting pretty far off-topic and the bickering is picking up. Steer it back towards discussing the 4870X2 or I'm going to have to lock it.

 

[BFG10K]

Originally posted by: ShadowOfMyself

Isnt this kind of a moot point though? People who buy the 4870 X2 WILL have those high framerates, and according to you, not experience micro stuttering... So what exactly is the problem?

This is a very good point, but think about what happens if your next game puts the framerate back to where the 3870 X2 was performing in yesterday's titles and micro-stuttering as a result.

If the micro-stutter hasn?t been fixed you?re going to have the same problem.

That?s why we need confirmation that when the 3xxx does stutter, the frame distribution at a similar framerate is better on the 4xxx.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: OneOfTheseDays

99% of gamers are all about price/performance. ATI has hit a homerun at just about every price-point.

Does a 4870X2 cost less than a GTX280? I could not find one on Newegg.

That's enough out of you Wreckage. It hasn't launched yet, you know that. Stop trolling.

-ViRGE

 

[ShadowOfMyself]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: OneOfTheseDays

99% of gamers are all about price/performance. ATI has hit a homerun at just about every price-point.

Does a 4870X2 cost less than a GTX280? I could not find one on Newegg.

Does a GTX280 perform better than a 4870X2? I could not find one preview that said so.

 

[JPB]

Like I said, that poll is far from scientific. If you cant tell by the posts over the last month, id say a far <majority on this site are extremely bias towards ATi. They arent just happy to have competition, <they actually dont like NV...some of the comments you would only <expect to find on some AMD fan site. (An example is the F*** Nvidia post a few posts up)

I think it has to do with "going against the man", kind of like all the college kids with thier Mac's.....

Oh please. Give up the Nvidia Focus Group Campaign already. It's really getting old.

Or is that your intention ? To get all the ATI review threads locked ?

 

[Rhino2]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: toslat
@nRollo
You should check your own X2 v GTX280 poll thread where approx 50% of respondents said they will buy the X2 as opposed to only 15% for the GTX280 (even with price cuts).

Like I said, that poll is far from scientific. If you cant tell by the posts over the last month, id say a far majority on this site are extremely bias towards ATi. They arent just happy to have competition, they actually dont like NV...some of the comments you would only expect to find on some AMD fan site. (An example is the F*** Nvidia post a few posts up)

I think it has to do with "going against the man", kind of like all the college kids with thier Mac's.....

I would call it more "Going against the company that seems to have contempt for its customers". I make no attempts to hide my preference for ATi, I just don't like the way nVidia does business, and I don't agree with the path they've taken as far as moving GPU technology forward. I believe their approach is needed sure, for now at least, but imho multi-gpu will be the future in a year or two (when hopefully we finally progress to shared framebuffers and remove the need for driver game profiles).

 

[SlowSpyder]

nRollo and OCGuy31 are more like Baghdad Bob then Rumsfield.

There is no AMD on top. That is lies spread by the AMD infidel fanboys. There is no penetration in the enthusiast market. Nvidia, God willing, will crush the evil AMD infidel. Nvidia lowered the price of the GTX280 by $200 because it is such a success. We are teaching AMD a lesson they will never forget. Our single GPU will crush the enemy. Nvidia is secure, this product launch was perfect.

Yup, the GTX280 is the fastest single GPU on average. Except if you want to game with high levels of AA... who wants to do that on a high end GPU anyway? It's funny how when the 9800GTX+ was announched it was blabbered about by the Nvidia fan boys, even though it was nothing more then an announcement that it was coming in the near future, not even really a paper launch. Here we have a card that will be here shortly and somehow it's not valid to talk about because it's from AMD.

Say it with me Rollo, AMD is on top this round. It's ok to admit. I've always been an AMD guy, I've used their CPU's since the 486 days. Even I can admit that Intel has them beat right now in the CPU arena. It's ok, I can admit it. You should try to level with yourself in the GPU area just the same. Right now AMD has more compelling products then Nvidia. AMD has made Nvidia totally scrap their profit margins just to try and keep their prodcut relevant. I hear the GTX260 is even selling at a loss (what I've heard, no way to validate that though). AMD is on top right now. In 6 months who knows. But right now, AMD is on top in the graphics market.

 

[Stoneburner]

What's the expected scaling with Quad-Fire?

 

[Rhino2]

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
What's the expected scaling with Quad-Fire?

Not good.

 

[anindrew]

Hi all! I was planning to get one 4870 for my new build (waiting for Intel price drops), but the 4870x2 is VERY tempting. Depending which retailers will have it, some of the coupons I have might become extremely handy.

I have a 24" 1920x1200 LCD. It still looks great at non-native resolutions, but of course, it would be nice play at 1920x1200. It seems like the 4870 can do that well while the 4870x2 can do that really well and with some extra eye candy turned on. I'm not sure if the 4870x2 would be overkill for me. Any thoughts?

Does anyone know what the power requirements for the 4870x2 will be? I'm planning to get the Corsair TX750 power supply. I just use two hard drives, so my non-video power requirements aren't very high.

 

[woolfe9999]

Originally posted by: bryanW1995

Originally posted by: ginfest

Originally posted by: OneOfTheseDays
Like I said before at the same or similar pricepoint there is NO reason to get a GTX280 over a 4870x2. It's a shame this forum is inundated with Nvidia fanboys and Nvidia payed trollsters, so the average person can't really see the truth.

This is an outright bunch of BS. In fact, if you take the time to read each post here, and qualify the posters, you will see a decided AMD/ATI bent since the current gen arrived

Are you running both the new NV GTX 2xx line and or the ATI 48xx? So you have done a direct comparison and you are sure about that "truth"? Or is your truth limited to what you have read here and at other sites?
And for that matter, what is the "truth". There is not as big a discrepancy between them as some folks would have you believe.

yeah, ~ 50 % average frame rate increase is pretty close...I think I'll go out and buy a gtx 280 now for $499...oops, now it's $449...soon it will be <$400...

I wouldn't be too sure about further price cuts beyond those already announced, at least for the near future. Nvidia is playing a game of trying to balance market share versus profits and its decisions in that regard can get pretty complicated. These newly announced prices smack of razor thin margins, particularly with the 260. My educated guess is that Nvidia believes that all it has to do is get into the price/performance ballpark of the ATI products, even if they're a little behind, and that their somewhat superior brand name recognition, as well as aggressive marketing, will retain them a reasonable market share. Then they just ride it out until their die shrink. I could be wrong, but I think these are the last Nvidia price cuts you'll see until the die shrink, unless AMD cuts their own prices in the interim, or R700 comes in at a lower price than expected (i.e. <$500.)

- Dave

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: woolfe9999

Originally posted by: bryanW1995

Originally posted by: ginfest

Originally posted by: OneOfTheseDays
Like I said before at the same or similar pricepoint there is NO reason to get a GTX280 over a 4870x2. It's a shame this forum is inundated with Nvidia fanboys and Nvidia payed trollsters, so the average person can't really see the truth.

This is an outright bunch of BS. In fact, if you take the time to read each post here, and qualify the posters, you will see a decided AMD/ATI bent since the current gen arrived

Are you running both the new NV GTX 2xx line and or the ATI 48xx? So you have done a direct comparison and you are sure about that "truth"? Or is your truth limited to what you have read here and at other sites?
And for that matter, what is the "truth". There is not as big a discrepancy between them as some folks would have you believe.

yeah, ~ 50 % average frame rate increase is pretty close...I think I'll go out and buy a gtx 280 now for $499...oops, now it's $449...soon it will be <$400...

I wouldn't be too sure about further price cuts beyond those already announced, at least for the near future. Nvidia is playing a game of trying to balance market share versus profits and its decisions in that regard can get pretty complicated. These newly announced prices smack of razor thin margins, particularly with the 260. My educated guess is that Nvidia believes that all it has to do is get into the price/performance ballpark of the ATI products, even if they're a little behind, and that their somewhat superior brand name recognition, as well as aggressive marketing, will retain them a reasonable market share. Then they just ride it out until their die shrink. I could be wrong, but I think these are the last Nvidia price cuts you'll see until the die shrink, unless AMD cuts their own prices in the interim, or R700 comes in at a lower price than expected (i.e. <$500.)
- Dave

Arent people already saying $499?

 

[woolfe9999]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: woolfe9999

Originally posted by: bryanW1995

Originally posted by: ginfest

Originally posted by: OneOfTheseDays
Like I said before at the same or similar pricepoint there is NO reason to get a GTX280 over a 4870x2. It's a shame this forum is inundated with Nvidia fanboys and Nvidia payed trollsters, so the average person can't really see the truth.

This is an outright bunch of BS. In fact, if you take the time to read each post here, and qualify the posters, you will see a decided AMD/ATI bent since the current gen arrived

Are you running both the new NV GTX 2xx line and or the ATI 48xx? So you have done a direct comparison and you are sure about that "truth"? Or is your truth limited to what you have read here and at other sites?
And for that matter, what is the "truth". There is not as big a discrepancy between them as some folks would have you believe.

yeah, ~ 50 % average frame rate increase is pretty close...I think I'll go out and buy a gtx 280 now for $499...oops, now it's $449...soon it will be <$400...

I wouldn't be too sure about further price cuts beyond those already announced, at least for the near future. Nvidia is playing a game of trying to balance market share versus profits and its decisions in that regard can get pretty complicated. These newly announced prices smack of razor thin margins, particularly with the 260. My educated guess is that Nvidia believes that all it has to do is get into the price/performance ballpark of the ATI products, even if they're a little behind, and that their somewhat superior brand name recognition, as well as aggressive marketing, will retain them a reasonable market share. Then they just ride it out until their die shrink. I could be wrong, but I think these are the last Nvidia price cuts you'll see until the die shrink, unless AMD cuts their own prices in the interim, or R700 comes in at a lower price than expected (i.e. <$500.)
- Dave

Arent people already saying $499?

I think you misread my post. The <$500 refers to R700. People are already paying $499 for the 280. Nvidia has announced new pricing for both cards - $300 and $450. I'm saying I doubt we'll see any further price drops from Nvidia on the 280 and 260 below these newly announced prices for the near future, unless R700 comes to market at a sub-$500 price point.

- woolfe

 

[Athanasios2104]

I'm not quite sure about dual gpu cards, cause micro-stuttering is still not solved by either ATI or NVIDIA.

At this time, i would pick a 4870 instead a 4870x2

 

[Compddd]

Why are so many people quoting $450 as the new price for GTX280 on these forums, but the articles on the various hardware sites say $500?

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

Originally posted by: ShadowOfMyself

Isnt this kind of a moot point though? People who buy the 4870 X2 WILL have those high framerates, and according to you, not experience micro stuttering... So what exactly is the problem?

This is a very good point, but think about what happens if your next game puts the framerate back to where the 3870 X2 was performing in yesterday's titles and micro-stuttering as a result.

If the micro-stutter hasn?t been fixed you?re going to have the same problem.

That?s why we need confirmation that when the 3xxx does stutter, the frame distribution at a similar framerate is better on the 4xxx.

Another thing to consider (and I know BFG has already thought of this) is if micro stutter has been fixed, how did they do it? Did ATI introduce a delay on the every second AFR frame to keep the intervals relatively even, or did they come up with another solution?

The reason this is important is because if a delay was added to every second AFR frame, this would result in increased input lag. This is already a deal breaker for some. I imagine that we will find out how fixed micro-stutter is when the 4870X2 is released, and what (if any) affects the remedy has on game play.

 

[Rhino2]

Originally posted by: nitromullet
Another thing to consider (and I know BFG has already thought of this) is if micro stutter has been fixed, how did they do it? Did ATI introduce a delay on the every second AFR frame to keep the intervals relatively even, or did they come up with another solution?

The reason this is important is because if a delay was added to every second AFR frame, this would result in increased input lag. This is already a deal breaker for some. I imagine that we will find out how fixed micro-stutter is when the 4870X2 is released, and what (if any) affects the remedy has on game play.

I know there was talk of some level of GPU to GPU communication possible on the 4870x2, though until a full NDA lift we won't really know how deep this goes or if it actually affects anything.