ATI 4xxx Series Thread

[happy medium]

After reading all the reviews and speculation I'd assume.........

The 4850 is around the speed of a 8800gt? and more exspensive?
The 4870 is around the speed of a overclocked 9800gtx? and more exspensive?
The 4850x2 should be a little faster then the gtx260? and more exspensive?
The 4870x2 should be a little faster then the gtx280? price =
The gtx260/280 at 55nm should clock faster and be faster then both the 4850/70 x2?

I'm guessing the gtx260/280 prices will fall by the time the 4850/70 x2 come out. 260@ 350.00$ 280@ 550.00$

Am I close? Any thoughts?

 

[Mech0z]

Anyone know how ATI is capable of transfering both sound and video using the dvi to hdmi when dvi itself does not support sound and video in one cable?

 

[Harmattan]

Originally posted by: Mech0z
Anyone know how ATI is capable of transfering both sound and video using the dvi to hdmi when dvi itself does not support sound and video in one cable?

I don't think this is possible: pretty sure audio will only transfer hdmi - hdmi. I've been running into this problem since I want to pipe audio through my LCD's speakers which I use as a monitor.

Disappointing none of the new cards have an hdmi out. Think I saw a picture of a 3rd part GTX 280 that had one, but it will probably cost an arm and a leg.

 

[Keysplayr]

I thought that HDMI only had "pass thru" audio. Output from your audio card into the 2 prong connector on the HDMI capable graphics card, and just fed the signal thru the HDMI connector (DVI to HDMI adapter that is). ??

 

[hans007]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
I thought that HDMI only had "pass thru" audio. Output from your audio card into the 2 prong connector on the HDMI capable graphics card, and just fed the signal thru the HDMI connector (DVI to HDMI adapter that is). ??

thats only on the nvidia cards.

the ati cards have a real audio source on the card.

 

[happy medium]

Originally posted by: dreshyne2g
It's true ordered mine yesterday. It will be delivered on wednesday.

So you ordered a card without seeing a benchmark for 200.00$? 4850 right?

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: hans007

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
I thought that HDMI only had "pass thru" audio. Output from your audio card into the 2 prong connector on the HDMI capable graphics card, and just fed the signal thru the HDMI connector (DVI to HDMI adapter that is). ??

thats only on the nvidia cards.

the ati cards have a real audio source on the card.

What audio source?

 

[loox]

Right... they've been doing this since the 24xx and 26xx. I have one and use it to feed my HDTV both 1080p video and Audio over HDMI. Here's the catch: HDMI can carry audio over the cable, its part of the 1.3 spec, probably even earlier ones. So when you buy a cable, buy HDMI 1.3 (the package will say it). So you have ATI's card, which use on-board digital audio and HD video to send the signal with both video and audio, ... we have TV/Speakers that can receive and play the signal, and now we have a cable that can carry it!

So actually, the catch is here: The card has two DVI ports (no HDMI), and DVI has no audio. So any old DVI-HDMI cable or adapter will not work. You have to use the one that ATI supplies with the card. Its special.

To contrast, Nvidia uses a cable from your Mobo's SPDIF digital audio out that must be attached to the card and then nvidia will pass that outside signal through with the video it renders. Surprisingly, Nvidia stayed with this somewhat sloppy solution for its newest launch. Clearly, ATI's solution is much neater, simpler to use and introduces less noise into the audio. Just remember: DONT LOSE YOUR DVI-HDMI ADAPTER, its the only one that will send audio. otherwise you'll be needing to order another from your video card vendor and ATI is very backed up on this part.
s

 

[tuteja1986]

Cinema 2.0 looks very interesting :!

 

[Nemesis 1]

I sure do hope ANand. review of the ATI 4000 series includes the AC game without the patch. If any game desrves title most modern game it is this one . Crysis is a game designed for nv gpus and coded to give NV an unfair advantage that just doesn't hold up in other games.

If you want to compare compare DX10 to DX10.1 . Than the true tech leader shines threw. Anand and other review sites need to bang this message home . As to how and why NV is tring to keep DX10.1 out of games. A hardware site should fight the good fight and this is something that should not be passed off as an important issue. Soon the hardware sites are going to be dealing with intel. Nv may muscle ATI around . But that won't happen with intel . SO the hardware sites have a problem. Report the facts now and keep hammering the message.. As to who and why Dx10.1 development has slowed to a crawl. Because Intel /AMD are your future as NV folds up just like any other company that tries to go off on its own. DX11 . I keep hearing the physics thing mentioned. Also Ray tracing. So as it stands right now I don't know were NV stands some are saying NV won't even use DX11. So NV is tring to steer the ship off course . But with intel entering the ring all of NV influence pretty much vanished

So many people are saying cpus don't matter in gaming . Well . NV is the one doing the shouting . SO lets see nv sli on a via mb and cpu . Go up against ATI /AMD setup . I pick ATI clear winner. NV doesn't need a cpu and because of their talk Via will end up being the only cpu that will play with sli. AS MS brings DX11 out soon rather than later. IF nv goes it alone without DX11 they be dead in trhe water. Of course DX11 contains DX10.1 something NV shaders just can't do because thet are not true unified shaders.

 

[tuteja1986]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
I sure do hope ANand. review of the ATI 4000 series includes the AC game without the patch. If any game desrves title most modern game it is this one . Crysis is a game designed for nv gpus and coded to give NV an unfair advantage that just doesn't hold up in other games.

If you want to compare compare DX10 to DX10.1 . Than the true tech leader shines threw. Anand and other review sites need to bang this message home . As to how and why NV is tring to keep DX10.1 out of games. A hardware site should fight the good fight and this is something that should not be passed off as an important issue. Soon the hardware sites are going to be dealing with intel. Nv may muscle ATI around . But that won't happen with intel . SO the hardware sites have a problem. Report the facts now and keep hammering the message.. As to who and why Dx10.1 development has slowed to a crawl. Because Intel /AMD are your future as NV folds up just like any other company that tries to go off on its own. DX11 . I keep hearing the physics thing mentioned. Also Ray tracing. So as it stands right now I don't know were NV stands some are saying NV won't even use DX11. So NV is tring to steer the ship off course . But with intel entering the ring all of NV influence pretty much vanished

So many people are saying cpus don't matter in gaming . Well . NV is the one doing the shouting . SO lets see nv sli on a via mb and cpu . Go up against ATI /AMD setup . I pick ATI clear winner. NV doesn't need a cpu and because of their talk Via will end up being the only cpu that will play with sli. AS MS brings DX11 out soon rather than later. IF nv goes it alone without DX11 they be dead in trhe water. Of course DX11 contains DX10.1 something NV shaders just can't do because thet are not true unified shaders.

http://techreport.com/articles.x/14934/13

Anyways , AC is a very shader heavy game.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Wow 4850 < = 8800GT? Way to innovate!

Well the 4850 is priced at or below the 8800GT so that would make sense.

If it totally blew the 8800GT out of the water it would be terrible business sense to not price it higher. They are already struggling financially I can't see them taking a further loss on their video card business.

Although I'm still waiting for official reviews. The "pre-reviews" have been all over the map so far.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
I sure do hope ANand. review of the ATI 4000 series includes the AC game without the patch. If any game desrves title most modern game it is this one .
I hope they do it as well. Along with any other review site.


Crysis is a game designed for nv gpus and coded to give NV an unfair advantage that just doesn't hold up in other games.
Explain how ATI cards cannot play Crysis?

If you want to compare compare DX10 to DX10.1 . Than the true tech leader shines threw. Anand and other review sites need to bang this message home .
I think you need to bang this "issue" home more than anyone else.

As to how and why NV is tring to keep DX10.1 out of games. A hardware site should fight the good fight and this is something that should not be passed off as an important issue.
You don't have any evidence that supports this claim. No matter how many times you say it, it doesn't automatically make it true.

Soon the hardware sites are going to be dealing with intel. Nv may muscle ATI around . But that won't happen with intel .
Intel doesn't have a single prayer in the foreseeable future against ATI or Nvidia when it comes to graphics.

SO the hardware sites have a problem. Report the facts now and keep hammering the message.. As to who and why Dx10.1 development has slowed to a crawl.
So you're saying there will be no DX10.1 games coming out ever? Everyone is going straight to DX11?

Because Intel /AMD are your future as NV folds up just like any other company that tries to go off on its own. DX11 . I keep hearing the physics thing mentioned. Also Ray tracing. So as it stands right now I don't know were NV stands some are saying NV won't even use DX11. So NV is tring to steer the ship off course . But with intel entering the ring all of NV influence pretty much vanished
What course is NV taking then? What course it there to steer to other than DX11 and beyond?
What kind of influence do you think Intel has in the graphics industry?
CPU's? For Sure. Graphics? :::: fart noise ::::

 

[exitous]

Found this link at beyond3d. 4850 crossfire: http://www.forumdeluxx.de/forum/showthread.php?t=500923

 

[Mech0z]

Originally posted by: loox
Right... they've been doing this since the 24xx and 26xx. I have one and use it to feed my HDTV both 1080p video and Audio over HDMI. Here's the catch: HDMI can carry audio over the cable, its part of the 1.3 spec, probably even earlier ones. So when you buy a cable, buy HDMI 1.3 (the package will say it). So you have ATI's card, which use on-board digital audio and HD video to send the signal with both video and audio, ... we have TV/Speakers that can receive and play the signal, and now we have a cable that can carry it!

So actually, the catch is here: The card has two DVI ports (no HDMI), and DVI has no audio. So any old DVI-HDMI cable or adapter will not work. You have to use the one that ATI supplies with the card. Its special.

To contrast, Nvidia uses a cable from your Mobo's SPDIF digital audio out that must be attached to the card and then nvidia will pass that outside signal through with the video it renders. Surprisingly, Nvidia stayed with this somewhat sloppy solution for its newest launch. Clearly, ATI's solution is much neater, simpler to use and introduces less noise into the audio. Just remember: DONT LOSE YOUR DVI-HDMI ADAPTER, its the only one that will send audio. otherwise you'll be needing to order another from your video card vendor and ATI is very backed up on this part.
s

Very informative then I might buy a PCIE2.0 board and a HD4870 sometime this fall after all but first I need to get a HDMI capable Reciever^^ NeedMoney.Com

 

[Extelleron]

Originally posted by: exitous
Found this link at beyond3d. 4850 crossfire: http://www.forumdeluxx.de/forum/showthread.php?t=500923

In Crysis....

According to that link, at 1920x1200 VH w/ 4xAA+16xAF, HD 4850 CF gets 23 FPS. According to Techreport's GTX 280 review, GTX 280 gets 20.4 FPS at 1920x1200 VH w/ no AA.

http://techreport.com/articles.x/14934/13

I don't know how CF scales with AA/AF, but without it, even at 1920x1200, CF scales only 22% according to Techreport. HD 4870 could very well be faster than GTX 280 in Crysis.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: loox
To contrast, Nvidia uses a cable from your Mobo's SPDIF digital audio out that must be attached to the card and then nvidia will pass that outside signal through with the video it renders. Surprisingly, Nvidia stayed with this somewhat sloppy solution for its newest launch. Clearly, ATI's solution is much neater, simpler to use and introduces less noise into the audio. Just remember: DONT LOSE YOUR DVI-HDMI ADAPTER, its the only one that will send audio. otherwise you'll be needing to order another from your video card vendor and ATI is very backed up on this part.
s

So ATI is able to process and pass the uncompressed HD formats and 8ch LPCM over HDMI on the HD3XXX parts? Genuinely curious as last I read the video card solutions just used different forms of s/pdif passthrough (limited to older 6-ch AC3 formats). The NV solutions use a connector from a sound card/onboard and the ATI has its own internal audio device (not sure if it does the process/decode or it just gets s/pdif passed through the PCI-E bus), but I don't think either is capable of TrueHD/DTS-MA or 8ch LPCM.

I believe only the onboard G33/G35 and NV 7300 solutions and now two sound cards are capable of full HDMI 1.3 support with the uncompressed formats (new Xonar 1.3 and Auzen Prelude 1.3). ATI's solution certainly has the easier path to HDMI 1.3 support but I don't think the current parts are capable.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Originally posted by: Extelleron

Originally posted by: exitous
Found this link at beyond3d. 4850 crossfire: http://www.forumdeluxx.de/forum/showthread.php?t=500923

In Crysis....

According to that link, at 1920x1200 VH w/ 4xAA+16xAF, HD 4850 CF gets 23 FPS. According to Techreport's GTX 280 review, GTX 280 gets 20.4 FPS at 1920x1200 VH w/ no AA.

http://techreport.com/articles.x/14934/13

I don't know how CF scales with AA/AF, but without it, even at 1920x1200, CF scales only 22% according to Techreport. HD 4870 could very well be faster than GTX 280 in Crysis.

Along those lines, I'm not sure if anyone saw the Tweaktown review, but here is part of it:

"The other thing I have to say before I wrap this all up is that I?ve tested the HD 4850, and I?ve tested it in Crossfire. Now, if I hadn?t tested those cards I may have been more impressed with the GTX 280, but I have. I?ve seen the performance figures the cards put out. We also know the price on a pair of HD 4850s is going to be under $600 AUD, while the new GTX 280 in stock form seems to be launching at the absolute cheapest in Australia in the low $700 AUD area. Ouch."

http://www.tweaktown.com/revie...al_thoughts/index.html

It's pretty impressive that the 4850's in Crossfire muster up better FPS then the GT280 at the same resolution and the 4850's are using 4xAA, the 280 is not using AA.

Also, I think you can clearly see why Nvidia wouldn't want AC to have DX10.1. My Radeon 2900Pro does not support DX10.1, but as I uderstand it, it does have support some of it's features. Even my lowly 2900Pro would pull ahead of the 8800GTX/9800GTX/9800GX2. I would imagine the 4850/4870 is going to be stellar in this game. No wonder Nvidia had them take DX10.1 out of the game. <-- Just kidding there. Or am I? <grabs popcorn>

 

[SunnyD]

I can't wait to see numbers on a 4870 + Hybrid CrossFire... that's my next platform.

 

[happy medium]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Wow 4850 < = 8800GT? Way to innovate!

Well the 4850 is priced at or below the 8800GT so that would make sense. If it totally blew the 8800GT out of the water it would be terrible business sense to not price it higher. They are already struggling financially I can't see them taking a further loss on their video card business.

Although I'm still waiting for official reviews. The "pre-reviews" have been all over the map so far.

Where can you get a 4850 for 130.00$ AR??

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: happy medium

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Wow 4850 < = 8800GT? Way to innovate!

<<Well the 4850 is priced at or below the 8800GT so that would make sense. If it totally blew the 8800GT out of the water it would be terrible business sense to not price it higher. They are already struggling financially I can't see them taking a further loss on their video card business.

Although I'm still waiting for official reviews. The "pre-reviews" have been all over the map so far.

Where can you get a 4850 for 130.00$ AR??

You cant. And between statements like that, and Extelleron posting ATI "charts" like they are more reliable than the leaked benchmarks on the 4850, you would think people lost all common sense.

 

[symbul]

Originally posted by: loox
Right... they've been doing this since the 24xx and 26xx. I have one and use it to feed my HDTV both 1080p video and Audio over HDMI. Here's the catch: HDMI can carry audio over the cable, its part of the 1.3 spec, probably even earlier ones. So when you buy a cable, buy HDMI 1.3 (the package will say it). So you have ATI's card, which use on-board digital audio and HD video to send the signal with both video and audio, ... we have TV/Speakers that can receive and play the signal, and now we have a cable that can carry it!

So actually, the catch is here: The card has two DVI ports (no HDMI), and DVI has no audio. So any old DVI-HDMI cable or adapter will not work. You have to use the one that ATI supplies with the card. Its special.

To contrast, Nvidia uses a cable from your Mobo's SPDIF digital audio out that must be attached to the card and then nvidia will pass that outside signal through with the video it renders. Surprisingly, Nvidia stayed with this somewhat sloppy solution for its newest launch. Clearly, ATI's solution is much neater, simpler to use and introduces less noise into the audio. Just remember: DONT LOSE YOUR DVI-HDMI ADAPTER, its the only one that will send audio. otherwise you'll be needing to order another from your video card vendor and ATI is very backed up on this part.
s

Audio has been part of the HDMI specs from the start, the version doesn't matter. Also there is really no such thing as a "v1.3 HDMI cable"; it's just a marketing ploy to charge you more for the cable. The big features in the HDMI 1.3 spec (versus 1.1a or 1.2) are support for deep color (10-bit I believe) and bigger bandwidth. Deep color it is pretty useless today because there is no content that support it yet as far as I know.

Right now, any HDMI cable will do. I usually buy my cable from monoprice.com (good stuff, cheap prices). I have a plasma, a LCD and a PS3 connected using those cables without any problems.

Ciao!

 

[Extelleron]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: happy medium

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Wow 4850 < = 8800GT? Way to innovate!

<<<<Well the 4850 is priced at or below the 8800GT so that would make sense. If it totally blew the 8800GT out of the water it would be terrible business sense to not price it higher. They are already struggling financially I can't see them taking a further loss on their video card business.

Although I'm still waiting for official reviews. The "pre-reviews" have been all over the map so far.

Where can you get a 4850 for 130.00$ AR??

You cant. And between statements like that, and Extelleron posting ATI "charts" like they are more reliable than the leaked benchmarks on the 4850, you would think people lost all common sense.

Benchmarks on the 4850? Where have you seen benchmarks of the 4850 & 8800GT, on the same systems, compared in the same games and same settings, in real games? Absolutely none. The ATI performance charts are all the hard information that we have.

The HD 4850 will be faster than the 8800GT in real games. The HD 4870 will be faster than the 9800GTX in real games. If you don't agree with those statements, then you are in for a big surprise next week. The 4870 is more of a competitor for the GTX 260 in performance, but it will be priced at 9800GTX levels. The HD 4850 is more of a competitior for the 9800GTX in performance, but will be priced at 8800GT/9800GT levels.

 

[zod96]

Will know the how well the 4850 stacks up against the 8800GT tomorrow I get my 4850 then. I have an 8800GT now. I just finished benchmarking my 8800GT with 3dmark 06 and Crysis, I'll compare with the 4850 using the exact same settings and throw up my results...

 

[loox]

So ATI is able to process and pass the uncompressed HD formats and 8ch LPCM over HDMI on the HD3XXX parts? Genuinely curious as last I read the video card solutions just used different forms of s/pdif passthrough (limited to older 6-ch AC3 formats). The NV solutions use a connector from a sound card/onboard and the ATI has its own internal audio device (not sure if it does the process/decode or it just gets s/pdif passed through the PCI-E bus), but I don't think either is capable of TrueHD/DTS-MA or 8ch LPCM.


Im not sure about the 3xxx parts but for the 2xxx you are correct and according to my manual the audio is old school HD, it says that is supports Dolby Digital and DTS (which are both the regular 5.1 variety) and Linear PCM, (which I don't know but would bet money is limited to 6 channels).

As for How? someone with more knowledge may provide a better answer. What I do know is that here is how ATI markets it: "Integrated HD Audio Controller (Azelia) and codec."

Now, it also appears in my device manager as if it were separate from my mobo's spdif and Realtek's driver's treat it that was as well. I don't think it is merely passing the audio through. I think for digital signals out the HDMI port, it is taking the audio and sending it down the cable in HD compliant format.

That said, at least for the parts out there now, I can tell you that you're right and the "Azelia"/ATI HDMI is 6ch, definitely not 8.