ATi 5850/5870 review thread

[Qbah]

Originally posted by: Gikaseixas
the price is exactly where it should be IMO. The GTX 285 is a great card and gets beaten by the 5780 across the board so why are some people complaining "oh the price this and that".

5850 is very impressive

Where is the HD5850 tested? Or do you base that off the leaks which weren't very accurate for the HD5870 numbers...

 

[dguy6789]

Originally posted by: Qbah

Originally posted by: Gikaseixas
the price is exactly where it should be IMO. The GTX 285 is a great card and gets beaten by the 5780 across the board so why are some people complaining "oh the price this and that".

5850 is very impressive

Where is the HD5850 tested? Or do you base that off the leaks which weren't very accurate for the HD5870 numbers...

http://www.techpowerup.com/rev.../Radeon_HD_5870/6.html

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Yeah, I don't see how this couldn't be viewed as an exciting/successful launch, all things being considered we have just about everything we could have asked for from AMD:

1. 5870 is the fastest single GPU solution, even the 5850 easily takes 2nd place
2. fair pricing - sure the prices aren't as phenomenal as the 4800 launch (we should all know we were practically stealing back then ) but even then, current prices are well below the respective competitor solutions, AMD could easily charge $299 and $399 respectively for the 1GB models, instead they're $259 and $379.
3. improved image quality - perfect AF and new AA modes, so not only best performance, best IQ
4. improved power modes - ~27W idle is a godsend
5. above and beyond extras such as HD audio support and Eyefinitiy. I'd wager most users won't care or benefit too greatly from these but its nice that AMD is going above and beyond.
6. DX11 - I mention this last, as I have never seen an introductory part ever truly benefit from supporting a newer version of DX - early adopters will almost always upgrade to a much faster part by the time DX11 games are actually making an impact.

That being said, it looks like it will only get better for AMD with the X2 and midrange parts right around the corner, it'll be interesting to see how the 5700s stack up against the 4870/4890.

 

[Qbah]

Originally posted by: dguy6789

Originally posted by: Qbah

Originally posted by: Gikaseixas
the price is exactly where it should be IMO. The GTX 285 is a great card and gets beaten by the 5780 across the board so why are some people complaining "oh the price this and that".

5850 is very impressive

Where is the HD5850 tested? Or do you base that off the leaks which weren't very accurate for the HD5870 numbers...

http://www.techpowerup.com/rev.../Radeon_HD_5870/6.html

Thanks. The HD5850 is a lot of value for 120$ less! It's still faster than a GTX285.

However, my point for HD5870 still stands. The TechPowerUp review was even more devastating in the HD5870 vs GTX295 battle. Probably because their CPU was at 3.8GHz so the GTX295 could fly even more.

 

[dguy6789]

Another thing to keep in mind is that the 5870 is not ATI's flagship card for this next generation, the 5870x2 is. The 5870 is extremely fast for the price, it's not ATI's attempt at all out performance at any cost, that would be the 5870x2. All rumors about the 5870x2 indicate that each 1/2 that makes up the whole will be clocked higher than the standard 5870.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Sneak peek at the Vapor-X HD5870

 

[Qbah]

Originally posted by: dguy6789
Another thing to keep in mind is that the 5870 is not ATI's flagship card for this next generation, the 5870x2 is. The 5870 is extremely fast for the price, it's not ATI's attempt at all out performance at any cost, that would be the 5870x2. All rumors about the 5870x2 indicate that each 1/2 that makes up the whole will be clocked higher than the standard 5870.

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that the GTX295 is still the fastest card available, even with ATi's new generation on the market.

The HD5870 isn't ATi's "top dog", but it's the fastest ATi card available right now (and not always either... as the HD4870x2 sometimes beats it).

 

[Gikaseixas]

Originally posted by: Qbah

Originally posted by: Gikaseixas
the price is exactly where it should be IMO. The GTX 285 is a great card and gets beaten by the 5780 across the board so why are some people complaining "oh the price this and that".

5850 is very impressive

Where is the HD5850 tested? Or do you base that off the leaks which weren't very accurate for the HD5870 numbers...

techpowerup.com has the 5850 review

 

[Gikaseixas]

Originally posted by: Qbah
The HD5870 was hyped to be a GTX295 equal, which clearly it is not - it handily beats the GTX285 but that was never in question. It is also more expensive than a GTX285. Add the fact that the initial availability will be very low, I find this a bit disappointing.

Don't get me wrong, the card is fast. It's just not as fast as I expected based on the leaks. And not counting the HD5870x2 with all the (again) scaling, noise and driver support issues (not to mention no idea when it will launch!), this will be the top single card until nVidia launches the GT300. I don't really see ATi gaining that much market share with this. It's most definitely not a "8-series launch" type of jump. And that would be the only thing that could help ATi catch up on nVidia. Just my thoughts on it.

I won't be buying this most likely. Unless there's a game I really need to play on my PC that will totally blow on my Xbox.

the 5870 performance justify the price doesn't it?????

 

[dguy6789]

Originally posted by: Qbah

Originally posted by: dguy6789
Another thing to keep in mind is that the 5870 is not ATI's flagship card for this next generation, the 5870x2 is. The 5870 is extremely fast for the price, it's not ATI's attempt at all out performance at any cost, that would be the 5870x2. All rumors about the 5870x2 indicate that each 1/2 that makes up the whole will be clocked higher than the standard 5870.

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that the GTX295 is still the fastest card available, even with ATi's new generation on the market.

The HD5870 isn't ATi's "top dog", but it's the fastest ATi card available right now (and not always either... as the HD4870x2 sometimes beats it).

I don't see how that really matters without taking price into perspective. Sure the GTX 295 is faster some of the time, but it's also more expensive. It had better be faster and quite a bit faster if it's going to be that much more expensive, otherwise it's utter garbage. The fact that the single 5870 trades wins with the GTX295 and when it loses is not by much anyway, it shows a good value. You could also string up two 5870s and it would be faster than the GTX295, but again it would be more expensive. At the price the 5870 and 5850 sell for, there's no competition at all.

Looking back, would you rather have a 7950GX2 or an 8800 GTX? What about a 9800GX2 or a GTX280? The 5870 is to the GTX295/4870x2 as those single cards are to their former X2 models. They all traded blows with their previous gen dual card competition.

 

[Gikaseixas]

Originally posted by: Qbah

Originally posted by: dguy6789
Another thing to keep in mind is that the 5870 is not ATI's flagship card for this next generation, the 5870x2 is. The 5870 is extremely fast for the price, it's not ATI's attempt at all out performance at any cost, that would be the 5870x2. All rumors about the 5870x2 indicate that each 1/2 that makes up the whole will be clocked higher than the standard 5870.

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that the GTX295 is still the fastest card available, even with ATi's new generation on the market.

The HD5870 isn't ATi's "top dog", but it's the fastest ATi card available right now (and not always either... as the HD4870x2 sometimes beats it).

AMD launched it at $379.99 so clearly it wasn't expected to beat the best from Nvidia IMO. At that price point the 5870 makes sense, it's close enough to the GTX 295 performance.

Top dog or not, it's still a great card.

1 - Fastest single gpu card in the market
2 - Improved HDMI audio
3 - Low idle temps and power cimsumption
4 - Direct X 11 capable

just to name a few good things

 

[BFG10K]

Well the 5870 is a good 40%-50% faster than the 4890, so it's a solid improvement there. Also the performance hit from 4xAA to 8xAA is marginal:

http://www.firingsquad.com/har...nce_preview/page20.asp
http://www.firingsquad.com/har...nce_preview/page21.asp

The only real disappointment is the super-sampling implementation which appears to be a failure at this time. I hope it?s something they can fix.

 

[Gikaseixas]

Originally posted by: dguy6789

Originally posted by: Qbah

Originally posted by: dguy6789
Another thing to keep in mind is that the 5870 is not ATI's flagship card for this next generation, the 5870x2 is. The 5870 is extremely fast for the price, it's not ATI's attempt at all out performance at any cost, that would be the 5870x2. All rumors about the 5870x2 indicate that each 1/2 that makes up the whole will be clocked higher than the standard 5870.

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that the GTX295 is still the fastest card available, even with ATi's new generation on the market.

The HD5870 isn't ATi's "top dog", but it's the fastest ATi card available right now (and not always either... as the HD4870x2 sometimes beats it).

I don't see how that really matters without taking price into perspective. Sure the GTX 295 is faster some of the time, but it's also more expensive. It had better be faster and quite a bit faster if it's going to be that much more expensive, otherwise it's utter garbage. The fact that the single 5870 trades wins with the GTX295 and when it loses is not by much anyway, it shows a good value. You could also string up two 5870s and it would be faster than the GTX295, but again it would be more expensive. At the price the 5870 and 5850 sell for, there's no competition at all.

Looking back, would you rather have a 7950GX2 or an 8800 GTX? What about a 9800GX2 or a GTX280? The 5870 is to the GTX295/4870x2 as those single cards are to their former X2 models. They all traded blows with their previous gen dual card competition.

very good post dude, people need to appreciate the fact that it's not a HD2900 type of launch :beer:

 

[Qbah]

All I'm saying is ATi needed something very strong to have a chance at gaining market. It was the 8-series that gave nVidia almost total dominance. Right now I see the HD58x0 as a "GTX series" type of launch. One was always a hair from the other. And that's how it is now. The HD5870 isn't really faster than the GTX295, it's mostly slower. The HD5850 is a bit faster than a GTX285.

The R300 put ATi into firm ground on the GPU market (because the FX sucked too)
All the next generations were really a wash between the two.
Then came the 8-series from nVidia. It totally slaughtered both ATi and nVidia last generation and the 8800GTX was leaps and bounds faster than a 7950GX2. It wasn't a contest. You just couldn't get anything faster than a 8800GTX, not even close.

See what causes mayhem in a market? A R300/G80 type of launch - those two were breaking points for both companies. Something ATi could really use right now as they're still recovering from the R600 fiasco imo. And something the HD5870 won't most definitely bring.

 

[cusideabelincoln]

Originally posted by: Qbah

Originally posted by: dguy6789

Originally posted by: Qbah

Originally posted by: Gikaseixas
the price is exactly where it should be IMO. The GTX 285 is a great card and gets beaten by the 5780 across the board so why are some people complaining "oh the price this and that".

5850 is very impressive

Where is the HD5850 tested? Or do you base that off the leaks which weren't very accurate for the HD5870 numbers...

http://www.techpowerup.com/rev.../Radeon_HD_5870/6.html

Thanks. The HD5850 is a lot of value for 120$ less! It's still faster than a GTX285.

However, my point for HD5870 still stands. The TechPowerUp review was even more devastating in the HD5870 vs GTX295 battle. Probably because their CPU was at 3.8GHz so the GTX295 could fly even more.

A 10-15% performance advantage for the GTX295 is somehow devastating to the HD5870? How is that so?

What I find most impressive is the card's performance per watt. As indicative from other cards on that chart, high-end GPUs don't usually have the best performance per watt, but the 5870 is clearly superior to any other card they test.

It's performance per dollar is right in line with other high end GPUs, as there has always been a price premium for newly-released, top dog parts. I think we are (I know I am) a bit spoiled by the HD4000 series, which has forced the entire mid-range segment to be ridiculously cheap and at the same time relatively fast. I think AMD has priced the current cards really well in comparison to competing products (like the 4870X2) and has left ample wiggle room should they need it.

 

[Cookie Monster]

The 8800GTX was not leaps and bounds faster than the 7950GX2 iirc. 7900GTX SLi was also faster than the 8800GTX. The 8800GTX wasn't hailed as the next R300 because it was dominant in performance. It was hailed as the R300 because it was the total package card (IQ, performance, etc). Its also true that when R600 failed to meet expectations, it made G80 look more impressive than it was before. Same goes for R300. People started to really appreciate the card once the truth behind NV30 was revealed.

The HD5870 is a very solid card. It has solid performance, IQ goodies, loads of features and very good power consumption to boot. Although expensive compared to initial prices of RV770, I think they priced it very well in accordance of the current market (Hopefully this will make nVIDIA shift prices down). The GTX295 is a dual GPU card and has all the issues associated to SLi with a hefty pricetag of $499+. It maybe perform better overall, but which one will you pick?

 

[Sylvanas]

5870 PCI-Express scaling 1x 4x 8x 16x

PCI-E 2.0 16x matters

 

[dguy6789]

What would the you guys be happier with, a 5870 that costs $600-700+ that was faster than the GTX295 or the $379 5870 that is almost as fast as the $480+ GTX295? While the former might be nice for a handful of people and look nice on paper, it really doesn't get into the hands of most people. How many of you would have bought it if it was $700 but the fastest card on the market? What was actually released is a much more reasonable product that is within the grasp of way more people.

 

[cusideabelincoln]

Originally posted by: Sylvanas
5870 PCI-Express scaling 1x 4x 8x 16x

PCI-E 2.0 16x matters

Uh, the conclusion pretty much states otherwise.

I bet if they tested with an HD4890 or GTX285, they'd get similar results as what they have in their summary. Do I have any proof? Nope, just a hunch.

 

[dguy6789]

PCI Express 2.0 8x = PCI Express 1.0 16x.

Although the difference between 2.0 8x and 2.0 16x isn't terribly large, it is definitely there and it's measurable. My impression from the review is that someone with a 16x 1.0 slot could still get awesome performance from these new cards, but there would be some minor gains if one were to use a 2.0 slot instead.

 

[darXoul]

The 5870 is a great card, no question about that. It's the fastest single GPU solution, it trades blows with top dual GPU cards while maintaining a decent profile in terms of noise and power consumption. It improves on several features, and it brings DX11 to the table. It also carries a decently modest price tag. So, is it good? Yes. Is it spectacular? IMO not quite.

Am I going to be an early adopter? No. Why not? Several reasons:

1. I'm going to wait a bit and see whether drivers are mature and stable enough.
2. 5870 will come in more exciting versions, I'm sure - factory OCed, with custom cooling, 2 GB RAM, etc.
3. If the GT300 is released soon and outclasses the 5870 (which I consider possible, despite all that rumormongering), it would be quite silly to buy a card now and another one in e.g. 2 months.
4. There are very few games that I can't "max out" (1920*1200, at least 4*AA if supported) on my current card, the GTX 280... and games which need an fps boost actually need these fps in spades so an upgrade has to be really huge, and the 5870 doesn't seem to provide that.

A fantastic card for people still riding 8800 GTXs and whatnot. Also, an understandable upgrade for performance freaks sporting SLIs and 30" displays. For a demanding gamer with a 1920*1200 monitor and an already strong card like the 280 who is more concerned about real world performance than pretty benchmark numbers, not necessarily a revelation.

However, If I had to buy a card now, it would be the 5870, no doubt about it.

BTW, I'm not a fanboy of any chip maker. Whoever builds the card that constitutes the best package of performance, image quality and ergonomics (which for me includes stability, noise profile, thermal characteristics), gets my money.

 

[Qbah]

Maybe I was expecting too much from those cards. They won't probably hit Denmark until October (if the first batch will hit at all). And since I'm gaming on my Xbox anyway... Looks like I won't be buying one. Unless Dragon Age Origins is so awesome I'll break and buy it I won't be buying it for the Xbox for sure (don't need another Sacred 2-type of frustration).

Anyway, the PCIe test looks nice. Hardly any difference between 2.0 x8 and x16. All those 1.0 people with x16 boards can enjoy the full benefit on the new cards should they choose to buy them.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: dguy6789
What would the you guys be happier with, a 5870 that costs $600-700+ that was faster than the GTX295 or the $379 5870 that is almost as fast as the $480+ GTX295? While the former might be nice for a handful of people and look nice on paper, it really doesn't get into the hands of most people. How many of you would have bought it if it was $700 but the fastest card on the market? What was actually released is a much more reasonable product that is within the grasp of way more people.

Why the arbitrary $700 figure? If it was faster than the GTX295 I'd wager that people would expect it to cost more money than the GTX295. All Nvidia should do now is adjust pricing. They don't even need to release their new line yet, at least until 5870x2 arrives.

Part of me thought the 5870 would have been more than what it seems to be. Another part thought it would at least be constantly as fast as a 4870x2, even faster because there would be no CF overhead. I thought it should be as fast as 4890's in CF with 100% scaling in all games. But, that doesn't seem to be happening. The bright side is, it is the fastest single core GPU around now. And in CF, two 5870's mostly dominate. And the power savings at idle is a vast improvement over the 4xxx series. Well done AMD.

The beta driver thingy really doesn't hold much water though. This isn't a new architecture. It's a doubling of everything the 4890 was/is with the same 256 bit bus. Expect the standard performance improvements that the last few Catalyst drivers provided for the 4xxx series with the next driver updates. They should have went 512 bit IMHO. But, they wanted to keep their dies as small as possible. So, they made the tradeoff.

Picture AMD making a 128-bit GDDR5 4890. Double it. You get a 256-bit GDDR5 5870.
This card is starving IMHO. They should have just went for the gold and saved the 256-bit bus for their mainstream cards. 5770 or the like.

IMHO

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
Sneak peek at the Vapor-X HD5870

As I get older, my tolerance of noise seems to be decreasing, so that has aroused my interest. Presumably they will also release a vapor-x version of the 5850, which I would find hard to resist.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: Keysplayr

Originally posted by: dguy6789
What would the you guys be happier with, a 5870 that costs $600-700+ that was faster than the GTX295 or the $379 5870 that is almost as fast as the $480+ GTX295? While the former might be nice for a handful of people and look nice on paper, it really doesn't get into the hands of most people. How many of you would have bought it if it was $700 but the fastest card on the market? What was actually released is a much more reasonable product that is within the grasp of way more people.

Why the arbitrary $700 figure? If it was faster than the GTX295 I'd wager that people would expect it to cost more money than the GTX295. All Nvidia should do now is adjust pricing. They don't even need to release their new line yet, at least until 5870x2 arrives.

Part of me thought the 5870 would have been more than what it seems to be. Another part thought it would at least be constantly as fast as a 4870x2, even faster because there would be no CF overhead. I thought it should be as fast as 4890's in CF with 100% scaling in all games. But, that doesn't seem to be happening. The bright side is, it is the fastest single core GPU around now. And in CF, two 5870's mostly dominate. And the power savings at idle is a vast improvement over the 4xxx series. Well done AMD.

The beta driver thingy really doesn't hold much water though. This isn't a new architecture. It's a doubling of everything the 4890 was/is with the same 256 bit bus. Expect the standard performance improvements that the last few Catalyst drivers provided for the 4xxx series with the next driver updates. They should have went 512 bit IMHO. But, they wanted to keep their dies as small as possible. So, they made the tradeoff.

Picture AMD making a 128-bit GDDR5 4890. Double it. You get a 256-bit GDDR5 5870.
This card is starving IMHO. They should have just went for the gold and saved the 256-bit bus for their mainstream cards. 5770 or the like.

IMHO

Performance is about what I expected,however I'm more impressed with the 5850 model,end of the day its a decent new range from AMD.
Nvidia I expect to have probably a better performing top model however pricing is the key factor ,as we know its AMD that keeps Nvidia on their toes for the price wars between the two,no way would I pay for the fastest card period regardless of brand and yes I can afford it , I always go for value for money/peformance for what I need rather then fastest card for bragging rights which as we know is no longer top dog tomorow.


Whats is scarey for me is how big the cards are getting(one thing I hate is huge long cards) even in decent tower cases.