ATi 5850/5870 review thread

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: videogames101

Originally posted by: Genx87
Lump me in with the meh crowd. I was a bit underwhelmed by its performance based around the leaks. So I cant fault the card, just the people leaking information. It is definately not a must have card right now. Ill wait to see what the GT300 does. I have a feeling it should perform at or better than the 295. SO we will have the same situation we had last generation. Should be interesting to see where Nvidia's pricing is forced to go due to it.

Maybe I am getting old or have been spoiled by large increases in performance. But the i5\i7 release was a disappointment and I have a feeling this generation of GPU's from both manufacturers will be as well

The problem is ATI had no competition at all for this card, so price was set accordingly. I have a feeling as soon as Nvidia responds with the GT300, ATI will show us it's true hand, by way of price cuts on the 58xx series.

Those prices are already pretty low for a high end card imo.
The thing didnt come in at the size they desired either. If anything I expect a dual GPU card will be shown when the GT300 shows up.

 

[cusideabelincoln]

Originally posted by: videogames101

Originally posted by: Genx87
Lump me in with the meh crowd. I was a bit underwhelmed by its performance based around the leaks. So I cant fault the card, just the people leaking information. It is definately not a must have card right now. Ill wait to see what the GT300 does. I have a feeling it should perform at or better than the 295. SO we will have the same situation we had last generation. Should be interesting to see where Nvidia's pricing is forced to go due to it.

Maybe I am getting old or have been spoiled by large increases in performance. But the i5\i7 release was a disappointment and I have a feeling this generation of GPU's from both manufacturers will be as well

The problem is ATI had no competition at all for this card, so price was set accordingly. I have a feeling as soon as Nvidia responds with the GT300, ATI will show us it's true hand, by way of price cuts on the 58xx series.

I agree, and I stated this earlier in a more indirect manner. ATI took the, what I'm now calling, the Goldilocks approach to price: Not too high, not too low. Once availability ramps up and Nvidia releases their product, I think ATI is prepared to lower prices should they need to.

Originally posted by: darXoul

If we take "reasonable high end settings", i.e. a typical 1920*1200 "Full HD" monitor and decent AA levels, the 5870 outperforms the 285 by approx. 25-30% (4*AA) or 40-45% (8*AA). This is quite a margin but if the GT300 fails to beat it, it will be probably considered a flop.

If the trend continues for Nvidia, then yeh GT300 will probably be faster and probably more expensive. But how much faster and/or more expensive? We have no idea right now. We also have no idea if Nvidia is following the same trend. We don't know anything yet as far as I'm aware.

The 280 was able to beat the 8800 by 45-50% and 75-80% in the aforementioned settings respectively, and it wasn't even considered such a huge success.

At this time, we can only speculate, but If I had to make an educated guess, I'd say the GT300 should outperform the 5870 by around 20% in high settings. If it's more than that and the card also keeps a decent noise/thermal profile, I'll call the launch a clear success, exceeding my expectations.

The big question, though, is literally at what cost (for GT300 for the consumer)? The reason the HD4800 series was a success was because of the price (per performance), despite it coming out after GT200 and being generally slower. If the GT300 comes out later and is faster, is that really not to be expected? If it was slower than the 5870, people here would definitely proclaim it as a flop, unless somehow they magically price it below the ATI's offerings. But even then, I bet most people would still consider it a flop.

Originally posted by: Keysplayr
They're already happy.

And now they can be happier. OMG! PPiP*.

*I think I'll start a new meme.

 

[darXoul]

Yes, the price factor is very important.

However, to be blunt and honest, we already have affordable and fast cards so pretty much the only thing I care about now is raw power, combined with a good noise/thermal progile. Of course, an absolutely excessive price will be a deal breaker, but if the GT300 carries a price tag of let's say $599 but can beat the 5870 by a significant margin, i.e. more than 20-30%, nVidia has just sold one

 

[cusideabelincoln]

So you're going to pay a 60% (or more, if ATI were to drop prices) premium in price for a 30% increase in performance? Be my guest, friend, be my guest.

Reference: http://www.techpowerup.com/rev...Radeon_HD_5870/30.html

At the highest res, the 5870 is on average 28% faster than the 285 in their benches. Using prices from newegg, the cheapest 285 (after rebate) is $295 from what I can see. The 5870 is $380, making it cost 29% more than the 285. This is what I mean when I say the 5870 is priced just right.

 

[darXoul]

I'm sure the difference in Polish street prices will be way less than 60% but even if it is close to that, yes, that's what I'm willing to pay. I wouldn't pay this price premium for a CPU but in case of a video card, I'm ready to spend some big bucks just to enjoy the best single GPU performance the current market can offer. YMMV.

 

[cusideabelincoln]

You're only thinking about your personal situation then, and not others. And quite frankly, you seem to be in the minority.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: Keysplayr
then an investment in the proper water kit for your particular card might be short term over expenditure. Depends on if you can resell the whole package and get a good chunck of your money back.

That's IF you buy a full cover block...I've had this Maze4 GPU block since my X1800XL and intend to keep it another round. If you pick your card right you can get away with not having to buy ram/VRM sinks (ie. the non-reference 8800GT I have doesn't require either...just the GPU block)....but for this 4870 I had to although it was only another $20 for both ram/VRM sinks.

 

[angry hampster]

Very interesting release. Stellar products for sure, but not as potent as the 38xx and 48xx series cards. A 5870 upgrade may be in the works a year or so from now.

 

[videogames101]

Originally posted by: angry hampster
Very interesting release. Stellar products for sure, but not as potent as the 38xx and 48xx series cards. A 5870 upgrade may be in the works a year or so from now.

Well, it's hard to follow up the 48xx series, lol.

 

[exar333]

Nice card. I don't think it would be a huge leap from my current 285 at the resolution I am using (1920x1200).

I think I will wait and pick up the better of the cards after the G300 is released. If the performance is similar, the 5870 might be a great choice at the current price, or potentially a little lower.

The only slight disappointment for me was the performance in high resolutions (30"+). I really do think the memory bandwidth is limiting the card somewhat, and I wonder if this will be the achilles heel of the card?

Pricing seems very fair for a new generation of cards, and overall, I would definitely choose thise card over either the x2 variants from AMD or NV.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Originally posted by: angry hampster
Very interesting release. Stellar products for sure, but not as potent as the 38xx and 48xx series cards. A 5870 upgrade may be in the works a year or so from now.

huh? the 3800s were no faster than the 2900s and were also slower than the 8800s. They competed purely on price/performance, something that was even overshadowed by the G92...

This launch is far more significant than the 3800s. I'd even go as far to say it could be better than the 4800s, if only because the 4800s came out with the GTXs already to market, and again, the most impressive thing about the 4800s was their price/performance as the GTX280 was still the fastest part (just massively overpriced).

Not only does ATI have more than fair price/performance here, they will also (at least for the time being) actually be able to claim the fastest GPU title.

 

[bryanW1995]

Originally posted by: dguy6789
Now why'd ya have to go and link that! HardOCP doesn't review cards, they review feelings!

I used to think that way, but they do have an apples to apples comparison now at the bottom of their pages, too. Every other site throws out a chart with 5-10 cards, kyle at least gives us useful real world info.

 

[bryanW1995]

Originally posted by: Extelleron

Originally posted by: dguy6789
It's cheaper than a GTX295 and GTX 280 sli....

It's about $100 cheaper than the GTX 295, which is a good value, but it's not mindblowing in any sense. That's the issue, the 5870 is a good card, but it isn't really going to get anyone excited like RV770 or G80. It's the best card at its pricepoint, but it isn't better or even equal to more expensive parts. It doesn't change the marketplace in any way. nVidia will not have to respond to the 5800 series in any way if it doesn't want to. The only thing they need to do is lower the price of the 285 to $299 or less.

Anyway you have to be a bit concerned about how RV870 will compete with nVidia's next generation part. Of course who knows what GT300 will be like, it could be a flop, but it won't take much to beat RV870. If they improve GTX 285 performance by 50% or so they will easily have the fastest card.

I think that it's slightly disappointing just because they set our expectations so high. The websites that compared it with gtx 295 came away saying it was good but not earth shattering; the sites that compared it with gtx 285 and 4890 loved it. It might eventually surpass gtx 295 with driver improvements/etc, but it's definitely not there right now and amd was stupid to get our hopes up in that regard.

 

[KingstonU]

As other's have said, ATI succeeded but didn't mop the floor when all factors are considered. The 5870 is seems starved for memory bandwidth as it is the only aspect that wasn't doubled.

My question: Could they just easily add more memory bus to the 5870 to 384-bit and release it as a higher model (5890?) in a few months?

Basically I wonder if ATI is holding back and taking advantage of the lack of competition for now, but could have something up their sleeve and release when GT300 comes out. What they have is good enough for now, and they can readily release something to keep them on top once GT300 comes out. This would make for a good strategy in my opinion. Plausible?

 

[videogames101]

Originally posted by: KingstonU
As other's have said, ATI succeeded but didn't mop the floor when all factors are considered. The 5870 is seems starved for memory bandwidth as it is the only aspect that wasn't doubled.

My question: Could they just easily add more memory bus to the 5870 to 384-bit and release it as a higher model (5890?) in a few months?

Basically I wonder if ATI is holding back and taking advantage of the lack of competition for now, but could have something up their sleeve and release when GT300 comes out. What they have is good enough for now, and they can readily release something to keep them on top once GT300 comes out. This would make for a good strategy in my opinion. Plausible?

Very plausible, they are a business, after all. Why show everything before they're competition shows anything at all?

I really think a price reduction is in the works, as well as the 5870x2, to counter Nvidia's release of the GT300.

 

[Stoneburner]

This launch is not as impressive as the 4800 series? This thing matches Nvidia's highest end card which is dual gpu! Taking price out of consideration, it's far more impressive than the 4800.

That being said, I'm far more interested in the 5770. I've switched to HTPC gaming and having crossfired 5770's with dx11 graphics could be nice

 

[scooterlibby]

I can't wait to see if Hydra in 30 days turns all this price point comparisons and bang for buck armchair analysis on its head. Probably won't, but here's hoping.

 

[bryanW1995]

Originally posted by: Qbah
All I'm saying is ATi needed something very strong to have a chance at gaining market. It was the 8-series that gave nVidia almost total dominance. Right now I see the HD58x0 as a "GTX series" type of launch. One was always a hair from the other. And that's how it is now. The HD5870 isn't really faster than the GTX295, it's mostly slower. The HD5850 is a bit faster than a GTX285.

The R300 put ATi into firm ground on the GPU market (because the FX sucked too)
All the next generations were really a wash between the two.
Then came the 8-series from nVidia. It totally slaughtered both ATi and nVidia last generation and the 8800GTX was leaps and bounds faster than a 7950GX2. It wasn't a contest. You just couldn't get anything faster than a 8800GTX, not even close.

See what causes mayhem in a market? A R300/G80 type of launch - those two were breaking points for both companies. Something ATi could really use right now as they're still recovering from the R600 fiasco imo. And something the HD5870 won't most definitely bring.

um, wrong. at launch, 7950gx2 was faster than 8800gtx in a lot of games. over time the 8800gtx drivers improved and it pulled ahead, eventually by a good margin. What really set 8800gtx into a class with 9700 pro was something that they both had in common: their competition came to the party late with an ugly date. 9700 pro was great, but nvidia's late/pathetic response made it the rockstar that it became. Same deal with 8800gtx, it was great but ended up being earth-shattering because ati didn't have a response.

GT300 is already late, if its performance isn't up to snuff then it will make 5xxx look that much better by comparison.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
This launch is not as impressive as the 4800 series? This thing matches Nvidia's highest end card which is dual gpu! Taking price out of consideration, it's far more impressive than the 4800.

That being said, I'm far more interested in the 5770. I've switched to HTPC gaming and having crossfired 5770's with dx11 graphics could be nice

Wasnt the 4770 just ATi's test run with 40nm? Would the 5770 be the test on the next node?

 

[OCGuy]

Judging by the supply, the Dell story might be true.


I just searched for 5870 on Dell.com, and they now offer them in the Alienware setups. Last night 5870 turned up 0 search results.

 

[v8envy]

There's no denying the 5870 is a good product for reasons mentioned above.

Now, here is the multi-million dollar question. Is it good enough to pay early adopter prices to upgrade?

If you own a 2x4870 or 4870x2, 285 or 295, the rational answer is "no."
If you own a 4870 or 270 and better, the answer is very likely "no" as well. Sure, it's faster -- but if you simply couldn't live with your current solution you'd have faster already. Cheaper to get a second card to match the 5870's performance otherwise.
If you are still struggling with an 8800GT or slower, the answer is a resounding "no." You're better served with an upgrade to a 4870 and for $129 and $250 left in your pocket for 2 more incremental upgrades over the next 6-12 months. Or if you must have better than 5870 performance, two 4870s for $260 and $129 left over in your pocket for tissues to dry the tears caused by running multi-GPUs.

The cards are sold out so clearly there are enough people who have to have the latest and greatest no matter what the value proposition. But aside from that I really don't see a compelling reason to upgrade right now as opposed to sitting back and waiting for the feeding frenzy to subside.

TL;DR - Nice product, not compelling enough to go crazy over.

 

[videogames101]

Yes, Alienware is offering plenty of 5870 options, including one which gives you 3 24" monitors and dual 5870s, damn.

 

[Tempered81]

Dave Baumann (5800 project manager at ATi) wrote on his website @ Beyond3d that the "90% for dell" rumors "are ridiculous". No doubt they've got a lot going to Dell, but he says it's not that much.

It's cool to discuss the finer points of the pricing and technology, but there are some pretty interesting videos on youtube of Eyefinity in action you guys should check out. Here are two of Batman Archam Asylum & HL2 Portal running on 3 30" screens in HD (sorry if this is a repost):

batman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...c&feature=channel_page

hl2: portal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...e=player_embedded#t=14

 

[MegaWorks]

I really need a card that can play ARMA II, my GTX 260 doesn't add up. I don't know if I should get another GTX 260 and SLI or get this card. The memory bandwidth is what's killing this card potential, I mean cmon 153.6GB/sec with 1600 stream processors!!!!!!

 

[GaiaHunter]

Originally posted by: bryanW1995

I think that it's slightly disappointing just because they set our expectations so high.

Lets see the leaked AMD charts showed the 5850 beating the GTX 285 - those are correct.

Then we had a 5870 being close to the 295 and a 5870 CF beating/or being close to 295x2 - we didn't see any CF 5870 vs 295x2 and the 5870 isn't beating the 295 as soundly as in the charts.

My question is: was the 5870 on the charts a 2GB version? Will 2GB version make any difference?