ATi 5850/5870 review thread

[happy medium]

Originally posted by: GaiaHunter

Originally posted by: happy medium
Oh I didn't know there was already directx 11 games out.?
Or does direct x path mean a modded version?

Is Grid 2 gonna be a real direct x 11 game?, or is it gonna use some features of it? What good A grade titles that are directx 11 titles, that are comming out in the next say 3 months?

Edit : that Bjorn review was immpressive .(battleforge)

About games:

http://www.pcgameshardware.com...lien-vs-Predator/News/

and the discussion of it on these forums - http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2333997&enterthread=y

Hey thanks for the links. That Dirt 2 looks awsome, but I can wait a 2 months to make a decision ,unless Nvidia shows up early. (October.).
@1900x1080 theres not much out there that makes me *need* to upgrade right now! If there is like Crysis I'll just use the 19 inch crt.

 

[coldpower27]

Originally posted by: happy medium

Originally posted by: Elfear

Originally posted by: happy medium
In all seriousness, what benifits does purchasing a 5870/gt300 have right now? Stalker Clear Sky and Crysis Warhead on a 30 inch monitor 2500x1600 with max settings? Other then that I can't think of one that would make me to buy one.

I guess it you have loads of money and want 100fps instead of 80?

I just don't get it.

I can see around a month from now when windows 7 is released, but will there be any direct x 11 games out by oct 18?

Edit: what i'm saying is this just a case of "my cards faster then yours"?
E-peen thing?

Bam. You nailed it right there for me. Clear Sky struggles at 2560x1600 with the gorgeous DX10.1 lighting and Crysis is not playable at max res. Those are the main games I have been playing lately so the extra horsepower is much needed.

I must say I should have waited though until reviews came out before selling my 4890s as they look to be faster than the 5870. Guess I'll have to wait for X-Fire 5850 reviews to come out.

Ok, so can a gtx285/4890 play all games at high detail @ 1920x1080?
If yes, they why not wait for the gt300 before making a 380$ videocard purchase?
Even if you only have a 8800/4850 series, prices will be better for the new cards when theres more competition right?

I guess for the very few people who game at 2500x1600 it's plausable.

Personally I game on my 32 inch Tv 1080p with a overclocked 8800gt.
I just played the new Need for speed Shift, Left 4 Dead, Grid, and Call of duty WAW . Smooth as butter and looked great. I play Crysis on my 19 inch CRT.

You could play on TV if you can stand the fact that your running only 1/2 the pixel amount.

 

[GaiaHunter]

Originally posted by: OCguy

The only variables at this point are what the competition brings, and if drivers mature.

Actually with all this of the 5870 being a "dual core single GPU" is making me very curious about the 2GB version. Is the reason the 5870 1GB can't beat the 4870x2 because the 4870x2 has 1GB per GPU vs "512 MB" per "core" of the 5870?

 

[GaiaHunter]

Originally posted by: coldpower27

How much would they charge for it though if the HD 5870 is 379 US? HD5870 would be what 699US-749US?

That would be stratospheric. They already don't have enough supply to meet the 379US on the 5870 part, maybe a little later when parts come down in price officially.

When they were leaking the specs and stuff, the prices they were talking were like $299 for the 5850, $399 for the 5870 1GB and $449 for the 5870 2GB and $599 for the 5870x2.

The 5850 and 5870 ended being cheaper.

I know the links are somewhere in these forums.

Edit: http://www.brightsideofnews.co...-pricing-revealed.aspx

No price for the 2GB version, though. I've seen it somewhere.

Edit2: Here it is http://www.techpowerup.com/index.php?103599 $449 for the 5870 2GB.

 

[MODEL3]

Originally posted by: coconutboy
I understand where you're coming from with your explanation of the performance in your examples, but those examples also show two highly successful product launches that are as good as it gets in this business.

MODEL3: That's why the performance difference in the above examples i gave is closer to 2,5X per price level instead of the usual 2X.


It also doesn't take into account that ATI hasn't just gone for the pure framerates, but they also nailed so many other things and excelled at them. The power requirements, Eyefinity, ability to run 4/8x AA well with little performance hit.

MODEL3: On the contrary, the examples i gave was DX9.1 to DX10 transitions.
Unless you mean the the 5870-4870 transition has much greater improvements than the 8800GTX-7800GTX transition...


The 5870, and especially the 5850 are excellent at their price points for what they do.

MODEL3: Yep, that's what i said also. (but not quite as good as in the examples i gave...)

I can't recall if it was the jump from the Geforce 1 to 2, or if it was from Geforce 2 to 3, but we had a very similar situation where many people thought the card was overpriced for it's performance boost at the time, but as Direct X 8 (IIRC) games became more prevalent, the newer part showed it's value by not falling apart like the older cards. I'd wager on 5800 parts doing the same.

MODEL3: In the past the situation was the same:

Q4 1999 Nvidia Geforce 256 (120MHz core / 150MHz mem)
Q2 2000 Nvidia Geforce 2 GTS (200MHz core / 166MHz mem)
Q4 2000 Nvidia Geforce 2 Ultra (250MHz core / 230Mhz mem)
Q1 2001 Nvidia Geforce 3 (200MHz core / 230MHz mem, this is the failure...)
Q3 2001 Nvidia Geforce 3 Ti 500/Ti200 (250/175MHz core / 250/200MHz mem)
Q1 2002 Nvidia Geforce 4 Ti4600/Ti4400/Ti4200 (300/275/250MHz core / 325/275/250MHz mem)


Sure a 4870x2 can be had for less than a 5850, but does it do all the other things and support DX 11? If you already own 4870x2 or, say, a pair of GTX 260s in SLI, well an upgrade is silly unless you're a one of the extremists. For how much they cost, these cards are great IMO, but I still won't buy one. This stuff devalues so fast and the power is wasted on any games I'll be playing before next year and G300s launch.

MODEL3: For my personal taste, all SLI/Crossfire solutions up until now was not desirable at all.
I usually buy VGAs in the 150-100$ level of launch price. (Think April 2009 110$ HD4770...)
For me 5870 at $379 is much better purchase than a $449 GTX295.
On the other hand, those guys that have already GTX285 or GTX295 should probably wait for GT300. (or GT400, lol...)
If i had to buy now, the 5850 at 259$ is a very good deal (like i said in my original post)

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

I still find it laughable that people are complaining that the 5870 did not live up to the hype. Who spread the hype? It sure as hell wasn't AMD. The hype was spread by third party sites posting fake graphs and if you honestly took that to be anything more than a wild rumor I have nothing more to say to you.

The bottom line is nobody I know would ever choose a dual card solution over a single card solution assuming price and performance were about equal. The 5870 makes all previous dual and single card solutions completely irrelevant for new buyers. There is literally no reason to buy a GTX295 at this point. With new drivers I expect the 5870 performance to ramp up even more from what we are seeing if history is any guide.

 

[dguy6789]

Let me ask you guys this: Would you rather ATI have the best performing single card(at any price, definitely not something cheap), but lose at every single price point below that like a company who will not be named did the last generation? Or would you rather them be competitive with the fastest opposition card for much cheaper while having something cheaper and or faster at every other price level?

Price/performance crown is NOT some kind of consolation prize. It's flat out superior to a stand alone performance crown. Who cares if you have the fastest card if it's $600-700+? It needs to be competitive and it's not. If the competition has a $300 card that is 95% as fast as that $600 card then they are destroying you.

The 5870 is not ATI's flagship card for this generation. I don't know how many times I have to say this. You can't compare it with the GTX 295 without taking price into consideration. Let's do a car analogy. Ferrari releases a new $200,000 car. Then naive people complain that it's not as fast as the competition's $500,000 car. Well here's an idea, it was never meant to be their fastest car. It was just a new car they made. Same deal with ATI. To repeat again: The 5870 is not ATI's flagship card for this generation; it is ATI's best card at $379. That's all.

If you want to compare anything without taking price into consideration just for raw performance, then compare 5870 Crossfire to the GTX 295 to get an idea of how the 5870x2 will compare to the GTX 295 since price doesn't matter and performance is all.

 

[happy medium]

Originally posted by: coldpower27

Originally posted by: happy medium

Originally posted by: Elfear

Originally posted by: happy medium
In all seriousness, what benifits does purchasing a 5870/gt300 have right now? Stalker Clear Sky and Crysis Warhead on a 30 inch monitor 2500x1600 with max settings? Other then that I can't think of one that would make me to buy one.

I guess it you have loads of money and want 100fps instead of 80?

I just don't get it.

I can see around a month from now when windows 7 is released, but will there be any direct x 11 games out by oct 18?

Edit: what i'm saying is this just a case of "my cards faster then yours"?
E-peen thing?

Bam. You nailed it right there for me. Clear Sky struggles at 2560x1600 with the gorgeous DX10.1 lighting and Crysis is not playable at max res. Those are the main games I have been playing lately so the extra horsepower is much needed.

I must say I should have waited though until reviews came out before selling my 4890s as they look to be faster than the 5870. Guess I'll have to wait for X-Fire 5850 reviews to come out.

Ok, so can a gtx285/4890 play all games at high detail @ 1920x1080?
If yes, they why not wait for the gt300 before making a 380$ videocard purchase?
Even if you only have a 8800/4850 series, prices will be better for the new cards when theres more competition right?

I guess for the very few people who game at 2500x1600 it's plausable.

Personally I game on my 32 inch Tv 1080p with a overclocked 8800gt.
I just played the new Need for speed Shift, Left 4 Dead, Grid, and Call of duty WAW . Smooth as butter and looked great. I play Crysis on my 19 inch CRT.

You could play on TV if you can stand the fact that your running only 1/2 the pixel amount.

Have you played Need for Speed Shift yet? Well when you do tell me if can pay attention to the pixel count when cars are flying by you when your doing 175 mph in a Porshe. Or in Left 4 Dead when 20 zombies are chasing you. All I know is the graphics are sweet @1900x 1080 on a 32 inch TV. Double the pixels is more then double the price for very little actual picture improvement that a Human can actually see.

Edit: also means double the videocard and more money for very little actual quality for the buck.=dum

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Originally posted by: dguy6789
Let me ask you guys this: Would you rather ATI have the best performing single card(at any price, definitely not something cheap), but lose at every single price point below that like a company who will not be named did the last generation? Or would you rather them be competitive with the fastest opposition card for much cheaper while having something cheaper and or faster at every other price level?

Price/performance crown is NOT some kind of consolation prize. It's flat out superior to a stand alone performance crown. Who cares if you have the fastest card if it's $600-700+? It needs to be competitive and it's not. If the competition has a $300 card that is 95% as fast as that $600 card then they are destroying you.

The 5870 is not ATI's flagship card for this generation. I don't know how many times I have to say this. You can't compare it with the GTX 295 without taking price into consideration. Let's do a car analogy. Ferrari releases a new $200,000 car. Then naive people complain that it's not as fast as the competition's $500,000 car. Well here's an idea, it was never meant to be their fastest car. It was just a new car they made. Same deal with ATI. To repeat again: The 5870 is not ATI's flagship card for this generation; it is ATI's best card at $379. That's all.

If you want to compare anything without taking price into consideration just for raw performance, then compare 5870 Crossfire to the GTX 295 to get an idea of how the 5870x2 will compare to the GTX 295 since price doesn't matter and performance is all.

It's ludicrous man. You've got a single card solution, with less power consumption, more features, and nearly the same performance for $100 less money (GTX295 goes for around $470.00 on most sites). What on earth are you complaining about?

 

[happy medium]

Originally posted by: OneOfTheseDays

Originally posted by: dguy6789
Let me ask you guys this: Would you rather ATI have the best performing single card(at any price, definitely not something cheap), but lose at every single price point below that like a company who will not be named did the last generation? Or would you rather them be competitive with the fastest opposition card for much cheaper while having something cheaper and or faster at every other price level?

Price/performance crown is NOT some kind of consolation prize. It's flat out superior to a stand alone performance crown. Who cares if you have the fastest card if it's $600-700+? It needs to be competitive and it's not. If the competition has a $300 card that is 95% as fast as that $600 card then they are destroying you.

The 5870 is not ATI's flagship card for this generation. I don't know how many times I have to say this. You can't compare it with the GTX 295 without taking price into consideration. Let's do a car analogy. Ferrari releases a new $200,000 car. Then naive people complain that it's not as fast as the competition's $500,000 car. Well here's an idea, it was never meant to be their fastest car. It was just a new car they made. Same deal with ATI. To repeat again: The 5870 is not ATI's flagship card for this generation; it is ATI's best card at $379. That's all.

If you want to compare anything without taking price into consideration just for raw performance, then compare 5870 Crossfire to the GTX 295 to get an idea of how the 5870x2 will compare to the GTX 295 since price doesn't matter and performance is all.

It's ludicrous man. You've got a single card solution, with less power consumption, more features, and nearly the same performance for $100 less money (GTX295 goes for around $470.00 on most sites). What on earth are you complaining about?

Gtx295 is a single card solution.( no longer a sandwhich) and if you want the fastest and the best you have to pay for it. 90$ more dollars.

 

[imported_coconutboy]

Originally posted by: happy medium
In all seriousness, what benifits does purchasing a 5870/gt300 have right now?...

...Ok, so can a gtx285/4890 play all games at high detail @ 1920x1080?
If yes, they why not wait for the gt300 before making a 380$ videocard purchase?

If you have a GTX 275/4890 or better, upgrading is silly IMO, but that's just my opinion. Outside of that, one good reason to upgrade is to increase average/ minimum framerates and/or improve image quality. There are quite a few games besides FarCry2 and Crysis that get fewer than 60fps when running 19x12 with AA. In fps games, I personally prefer to have my framerates closer to 70+ and even 100 than 30-40. It makes a big difference to me even if it doesn't bother other people. Other people simply want better image quality by being able to max sliders and run 4/8xAA 16x AF whereas many people can't do this w/o a significant drop in framerates. Fallout 3 isn't the most demanding game, but right now if you try to run 4x AA 16 AF with max settings at 19x12 on a GTX 260 or 4870, it's certainly playable but there will be drops below 30 and even the lowish average fps will give some people headaches

In the second part of your question, waiting is always an option determined, again, by each user. If it was me and I had a GTX 285/4890 or even a 4870/260 then no way in hell would I upgrade to these new ATI cards, nor G300. Again, the average PC gamer upgrades their vid card once every 2 years. Some faster, some slower, but that's the average.

Plus, waiting for a new product that hasn't yet released is one of those things PC users always need to balance vs what they can use RIGHT NOW. What if G300 doesn't come out in January and instead is delayed till February or March? What if G300 comes out and destroys 5870, but the cost is $500 and we can only buy the top end part for the first 6 weeks along with price gouging? Will it have been worth the wait? To each their own.

To top it all off, the overwhelming majority of people who buy vid cards (which is itself a very tiny fraction of the PC market) spend ~$100 on average for their vid cards which often means the trickled down parts from the previous generation; in this case that means 4850 and 9800 GT are just hitting their stride in terms of sales volume and probably have another 3-6 months of strong sales before they start to slowly drop towards becoming $50-70 parts.

 

[GaiaHunter]

Originally posted by: dguy6789
If you want to compare anything without taking price into consideration just for raw performance, then compare 5870 Crossfire to the GTX 295 to get an idea of how the 5870x2 will compare to the GTX 295 since price doesn't matter and performance is all.

You have to understand that for marketing purposes is actually of some importance that the GTX 295 wasn't beaten.

nVidia was losing at pretty much every price point before - sure nVidia cards were slightly faster and have some decent features like CUDA and physX.

What they had was the fastest single GPU (GTX285) card (not by much, but it was the fastest), the fastest "single pack card" (GTX 295) and the fastest 2 card configuration in GTX 285 SLI.

Suddenly they lose the single GPU crown and the 2 cards configuration to the 5870.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by: happy medium
Gtx295 is a single card solution.( no longer a sandwhich) and if you want the fastest and the best you have to pay for it. 90$ more dollars.

GTX295 dual/single PCB is a single card solution. Both versions use a single PCI-e x16 connector. Whether or not its single PCB has the least amount of significance since a) the card still relies on SLi technology whether or not its dual PCB and b) it was always a single card solution.

Anyway, I think the bigger problem for nVIDIA is that their future mid to low range parts (replaced by GT21x which supports DX10.1) will have to go up against a complete DX11 lineup from AMD.

 

[Obsoleet]

Originally posted by: dguy6789
Let me ask you guys this: Would you rather ATI have the best performing single card(at any price, definitely not something cheap), but lose at every single price point below that like a company who will not be named did the last generation? Or would you rather them be competitive with the fastest opposition card for much cheaper while having something cheaper and or faster at every other price level?

Price/performance crown is NOT some kind of consolation prize. It's flat out superior to a stand alone performance crown. Who cares if you have the fastest card if it's $600-700+? It needs to be competitive and it's not. If the competition has a $300 card that is 95% as fast as that $600 card then they are destroying you.

The 5870 is not ATI's flagship card for this generation. I don't know how many times I have to say this. You can't compare it with the GTX 295 without taking price into consideration. Let's do a car analogy. Ferrari releases a new $200,000 car. Then naive people complain that it's not as fast as the competition's $500,000 car. Well here's an idea, it was never meant to be their fastest car. It was just a new car they made. Same deal with ATI. To repeat again: The 5870 is not ATI's flagship card for this generation; it is ATI's best card at $379. That's all.

If you want to compare anything without taking price into consideration just for raw performance, then compare 5870 Crossfire to the GTX 295 to get an idea of how the 5870x2 will compare to the GTX 295 since price doesn't matter and performance is all.

Stop being rational and sensible. Don't you know this is the time to fight off excitement about a genuinely great, extremely well-rounded, non-Nvidia product? These people can't enjoy a good product for a good price. They need more nViDiA :shocked:

Originally posted by: GaiaHunter
Suddenly they lose the single GPU crown and the 2 cards configuration to the 5870.

The bottom line. Single GPU crown gone. MultiGPU crown gone.

The grasping at the 295-isn't-really-SLI straw is very thin. Most people here are smart enough to know better than fall for that, it's marketing speak. Pure and simple. It's Nvidia's plants coming up with strategies. I hate to talk that way, but it's simply the truth.
We know the 295 is SLI, period.

And the crowns are gone for a long time with the X2 Crossfire-on-a-stick being constantly tweaked at whatever speed is necessary to ruin NV's G300 launch party. This chip is damn good, and it's damn fast.
What no one wants to say out loud because it offends the TWIMTBP kids- It's over for Nvidia for a while. Really.

Originally posted by: happy medium
Gtx295 is a single card solution.( no longer a sandwhich) and if you want the fastest and the best you have to pay for it. 90$ more dollars.

Mmmk.

You first.

 

[imported_coconutboy]

Originally posted by: GaiaHunter
nVidia is losing at pretty much every price point

Fixed that for ya

ATI's profits on their cards has been much better than Nv at every price point except on the GTX 295 since there was no competition for that $$$$ part except, arguably, a pair of GTX 275/280s. Now that it gets undercut, Nv will either keep the price as is and lose sales to people buying 5870s or else drop the 295's price. Either way, Nvidia makes less money because they're either selling fewer units or seeing slimmer margins. Meanwhile ATI has already made back a sizable chunk of their 5800 series R&D $$$ via the deal with Dell. Depending on what AMD negotiated with Dell, they might stand to make even more via their CPUs.

 

[Stoneburner]

I'M truly baffled by this thread. ATI just released an excellent new card, did it on time, and has the most powerful GPU on the market right now, for a reasonable price. I can understand waiting to see what gt300 brings, but I can't understand people's disappointment. What exactly is wrong here?

BTW, ati knocked idle power down to ridiculous levels. This is an excellent development especially when considering what their mobile parts might do.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
I'M truly baffled by this thread. ATI just released an excellent new card, did it on time, and has the most powerful GPU on the market right now, for a reasonable price. I can understand waiting to see what gt300 brings, but I can't understand people's disappointment. What exactly is wrong here?

BTW, ati knocked idle power down to ridiculous levels. This is an excellent development especially when considering what their mobile parts might do.

The only logical explanation is that we have some Nvidia plants here on this forum trying to spread misinformation and false "impressions" to scare away potential buyers. The whole GTX295 is a "single non-SLI" card is such a crock I won't even bother addressing it.

I'm picking up the 5850 as soon as they become more readily available.

 

[nemesismk2]

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
I'M truly baffled by this thread. ATI just released an excellent new card, did it on time, and has the most powerful GPU on the market right now, for a reasonable price. I can understand waiting to see what gt300 brings, but I can't understand people's disappointment. What exactly is wrong here?

BTW, ati knocked idle power down to ridiculous levels. This is an excellent development especially when considering what their mobile parts might do.

I am baffled too because the 5870 is a great video card offering GeForce 295 level or better performance at a cheaper price.

I am confused.com lol

 

[ShadowOfMyself]

Heh although its been explained already I have to repeat... This is the first time in many years where a new generation offers only 30% performance over previous gen...

When the GTX280 was announced, it was a better performer than this and people were still disappointed (well yeah, it had that monstrous price tag)

You can say we have been spoiled but thats what it is, of course people would expect 50%+ increase, I know I did, I thought it was a given, but no

Of course for now AMD gets to enjoy a comfortable lead since the GT300 is nowhere to be seen, but I am betting it will wipe the floor with the 5870 once it gets released, just by looking at past launches

And this is coming from someone who hates Nvidia for their low marketing blows, but its the truth

 

[dguy6789]

If the GT300 is faster than the 5870, what if ATI prices the 5870x2 at or under the price of the GT300? When's the last time Nvidia launched a next gen card under $600? The Geforce 6800? What are the odds that GT300 is faster than the 5870x2? It seems silly to me to just speculate that the GT300 is going to dominate when you consider the aforementioned.

Look at these benchmarks comparing the 9700 Pro when it launched to the Geforce 4 Ti4600. Link These early benchmarks didn't really tell the whole story. Everyone was so damn sure the NV30 was going to destroy the 9700. All I'm saying is don't count your chickens before they hatch.

 

[Qbah]

So when the HD4870x2 was beating the GTX280, it wasn't a problem for anyone that it's a multi-GPU vs a single GPU and people were recommending the HD4870x2 because it's faster. And now, when the GTX295 is beating a HD5870, somehow the fact that it's SLI makes it inferior. Wow... talk about double standards.

More comparisons? The HD4870x2 was eating a lot more power than a GTX280 (as does a GTX295 vs HD5870). It had to use game specific profiles to work. It was louder and hotter. And yet somehow back then it was a better buy yet now the GTX295 somehow isn't. Hell, people still recommend a HD4850x2 over a GTX285...

On another note, people were talking a HD4870 (not x2) can play pretty much anything too. And you could look at the HD4870 of then as the HD4890/GTX285 of now.

 

[zebrax2]

Originally posted by: Qbah
So when the HD4870x2 was beating the GTX280, it wasn't a problem for anyone that it's a multi-GPU vs a single GPU and people were recommending the HD4870x2 because it's faster. And now, when the GTX295 is beating a HD5870, somehow the fact that it's SLI makes it inferior. Wow... talk about double standards.

More comparisons? The HD4870x2 was eating a lot more power than a GTX280 (as does a GTX295 vs HD5870). It had to use game specific profiles to work. It was louder and hotter. And yet somehow back then it was a better buy yet now the GTX295 somehow isn't. Hell, people still recommend a HD4850x2 over a GTX285...

On another note, people were talking a HD4870 (not x2) can play pretty much anything too. And you could look at the HD4870 of then as the HD4890/GTX285 of now.

Probably because the 4870x2 and gtx280/gtx285 are at the same price range while the 5870 is around 100$ cheaper than the gtx 295.

 

[imported_coconutboy]

Originally posted by: ShadowOfMyself
This is the first time in many years where a new generation offers only 30% performance over previous gen...

You've got to be handpicking your benchmarks and resolutions to come up with a mere 30% increase because darn near every website out there is showing the 5870 as ~40% and up at higher resolutions.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Would you rather ATI have the best performing single card(at any price, definitely not something cheap), but lose at every single price point below that like a company who will not be named did the last generation? Or would you rather them be competitive with the fastest opposition card for much cheaper while having something cheaper and or faster at every other price level?

Who are you supposed to be asking? If it is a hypothetical ATi fan, then using the last generation isn't a good one if you want the company to continue to exist. They were utterly destroyed in the marketplace when looking at the 4xxx parts versus nV's lineup, by a 2:1 ratio. While the ATi fans may have loved what they did, doing the exact same thing would be terrible business and help them move towards collapse. I'm not saying that is what is going to happen, but cheering on a strategy that is leading you to your demise just doesn't make any sense.

If you are asking any sane rational person they wouldn't really care if it was nV or ATi that offered the best choice for them. One of the big problems that ATi seemed to have last generation is the perception of value. Despite them clearly leading in price/performance when looking at raw benchmark data, they failed to be competitive in the marketplace in any fashion whatsoever. I'm not sure which element was the biggest factor, nV pushing PhysX, CUDA or perhaps the normally vastly superior nV bundles(likely some combination of all of the above) but whatever it was ATi needs to address it. I have stated before and I stand by the sentiment that it doesn't matter if consumers want a bumper sticker with their video card, if that's what they want, you give them their stupid bumper sticker to get the sale.

If the 5870 launched at $299 I think you would find most people would be overjoyed with it, and it wouldn't surprise me(that's actually a bit of an understatement) if ATi doesn't already have all the pricing promos ready at that level for as soon as nV launches. Right now the are supply limited, they could have launched at $500 and would have sold out(and that would have been the smartest thing to do short term, but it would have left a bad impression on some people). As it stands right now the 5870 ranks somewhere around fifth best solution in its' price range(4890CF, 275SLI, 4870x2, 4870CF) looking at a price/performance metric. Please try and keep in mind that the very same ATi loyalists saying those aren't valid options I can pull up examples of them touting the superiority of the 4870x2 over the GTX285 and the 4850x2 over the GTX280.

In terms of superior feature support, again, this is coming off as rather comical. A lot of people in this thread are talking about SSAA and angle independant AF, both of which are features the competition has had for years(in other words, it's only a valid upgrade point if you don't consider the green team). The major features of this part are Eyefinity and DX11 support, neither of which I will try to marginalize in any way, but DX adoption rates have always been very slow and it is always going to be different, this time. If someone wants to buy a 5870 for DX11 support I think it is a perfectly valid reason, but in all honesty we do have far more PhysX titles on the market right now then DX11 offerings, and that will likely remain accurate for at least a couple quarters if not longer. Again, if people are looking to future proof then I can completely understand that, but this forum has been filled with the red team fans saying that you shouldn't ever future proof, buy for the games you are playing today etc, etc.

Pretty much, the 5870 is very much like a normal nV launch in many regards. It brings the top single GPU performance to the table, does so at a price point that does not make it particularly attractive when compared to the competition but it offers some features that have some interesting benefits in both the short and long term. I do not think the 5870 is a bad part in any stretch of the word, it just seems very much like what I would expect from the green team. Taking early profit margins(smart business), pushing features over performance and relying on technical superiority to sell its products in spite of its inferior price/performance compared to the competition. None of these things I consider bad, just not typical ATi(which given how their business model has been working versus nV, that may be a very, very good thing for them).

 

[bimmerboy]

i think at the time the 4870x2 came out, nvidia wasnt planning on making a dual card but was forced by the hand amd dealt with the 4870x2. so what was being compared was the flagships of both brands at the time. nvidia's flagship was planned to be gtx 280 with the "can of whoop ass" comments that used to float around. gtx 295 was not planned from the beginning more of a "how can we combat the 4870x2 which is done very well" against the gtx 280

the 5870 is not amd's flagship card. you already know that some bigger and better single card solution is planned. this to me is why its compared to last generations single gpu's (in my mind) and not really the dual's as i don't believe it was intended to do so. it is amd's current high end single gpu offering and since we know amd always planned from the beginning with doing a dual gpu card solution. it seems only right to compare single gpu's now vs single gpu's and duals vs duals.

excuse my ability to post coherently i dont post much but thats just my point of view