ATI A Cheater

[bunnyfubbles]

Muck raking, I say just test the damn cards they give us and unless you can detect a lack of image quality without much trouble (ie zooming in on a still shot to the nth degree), then you rate that card lower than the other with the better IQ. It used to be this simple but now, for some reason, we feel the need to cry wolf whenever we hear some BS about "driver cheats" and "optimizations", I could care less if they are "cheating" to improve performance because if I can't tell, I can't have any reason to care, right? Competition is a good thing. I think the reason why we might care so much about cheats that potentially sacrifice IQ for performance is that we fear ATI/nVidia will take it too far and we'll get poopy graphics. But that's the thing, if one of them goes too far, gamers will realize it and one company will start offering the superior IQ forcing the other to step up and match them.

All this bs about cheating is getting annoying.

 

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: DefRef

Originally posted by: Pete
Are you trying to stick up for the "little guy," or the guy who's currently down (but definitely not out)?

Another typical Fanchimp response. To believe your rhetoric, Nvidia is on the verge of bankruptcy and ATI now has 99% of the market. The only thing "down" is that their top-end cards are only really, really fast when compared to the really, really, really fast ATIs, yet you claim crushing victory. I've called you Fanchimps "sore winners" in the past and it's still true.

I'm pretty sure Pete was being tongue-in-cheek about their "little guy" status since Nvidia is the one who's "down" right now after losing the performance crown for the first time to ATI's 9700. Obviously Nvidia has a lot of fight left in them, and I do not think Pete was pushing rhetoric with this post. He was merely upset at all of the kneejerk defenses people are giving for Nvidia's cheats (I'm not saying you, DefRef are one of them but there are definately others here who will defend everything Nvidia does).

As for your seeming desire to see people praise nV for their past glory, why should anyone do that? If the 3D world ran on past glory, 3dfx never would have crumbled under its lack of innovation.

In addition to everything else you've made up about my posts, you totally cross into Fantasyland with that one. Nvidia has had five great years and one so-so one; ATI has finally had a hot year after a history of sheer mediocrity (other than their AIW line) and you're demanding that history be ignored so that your chosen heroes can bask in their glory all by themselves, as if they invented the third dimension.

Speaking of crossing over into la-la land...

 

[Pete]

My God, DefRef and Genx87 are really serious. I can't compete with zealots, so I'll stop trying. I thought I was being reasonable, if a little snide, but the way you two attack me as a fanATIc or fanchimp or whatever belittling term you use as a convenient excuse to avoid actually having to read and understand my posts makes it impossible to try to determine the burrs in your feet. I don't consider myself a fan of ATi to the point of overlooking any good points nVidia may have, but I can't forgive some of the stunts they pulled this year. The excuse that "business is business" doesn't fly with me--lying to your customers and your fans is unacceptable, and I'm not as quick to forgive as you are. When things reach the point where DefRef has to remind me that nV isn't dying, it becomes absurdly obvious that he's not paying attn to a thing I'm saying, but just lumping me in with his imagined "fanchimp" crusaders that are out to destroy nVidia at all costs. I have no "chosen heroes," but you obviously have chosen your strawman and are flaming him mercilessly.

DefRef and Genx87, why you choose to overlook the many, many misteps and false steps nV has taken this year is beyond me, but good luck with your crusade to convince everyone that nV is beyond reproach and anyone who points out ways to improve the top dog is just a jealous, jabbering sheep. I'm sure I'll be seeing you two poke into every thread in this forum to preemptively decry the inevitable fanboy flamewars, all the while ignorant of your own contribution to that noise. I think you've both gone way overboard defending nV, and your initial, somewhat reasonable faith in nV has now turned into overly defensive attacks on anyone who question your assertions. Gentlemen enjoy your ignorance. It's painful for me to watch, but at least you're having fun with it.

 

[ronnn]

Originally posted by: Pete
My God, DefRef and Genx87 are really serious.

 

[ginfest]

Originally posted by: Pete
My God, DefRef and Genx87 are really serious. I can't compete with zealots, so I'll stop trying. I thought I was being reasonable, if a little snide, but the way you two attack me as a fanATIc or fanchimp or whatever belittling term you use as a convenient excuse to avoid actually having to read and understand my posts makes it impossible to try to determine the burrs in your feet. I don't consider myself a fan of ATi to the point of overlooking any good points nVidia may have, but I can't forgive some of the stunts they pulled this year. The excuse that "business is business" doesn't fly with me--lying to your customers and your fans is unacceptable, and I'm not as quick to forgive as you are. When things reach the point where DefRef has to remind me that nV isn't dying, it becomes absurdly obvious that he's not paying attn to a thing I'm saying, but just lumping me in with his imagined "fanchimp" crusaders that are out to destroy nVidia at all costs. I have no "chosen heroes," but you obviously have chosen your strawman and are flaming him mercilessly.

DefRef and Genx87, why you choose to overlook the many, many misteps and false steps nV has taken this year is beyond me, but good luck with your crusade to convince everyone that nV is beyond reproach and anyone who points out ways to improve the top dog is just a jealous, jabbering sheep. I'm sure I'll be seeing you two poke into every thread in this forum to preemptively decry the inevitable fanboy flamewars, all the while ignorant of your own contribution to that noise. I think you've both gone way overboard defending nV, and your initial, somewhat reasonable faith in nV has now turned into overly defensive attacks on anyone who question your assertions. Gentlemen enjoy your ignorance. It's painful for me to watch, but at least you're having fun with it.

Pete, I've read many of your posts both here and at B3D and I have to agree with both your comments and tone-I do think that you are fair in your assessments.
But consider this in defense of the DefRef and Genx87 type posts-maybe these are just a reaction to the onslaught of crap in the 2 forums I've mentioned and many others.
Guys like Rogo(din/zhin/?), reever(2), DW, and many others join these forums and many others not to help but to just stir up s**t. They constantly denigrate NV and NV owners, often making the same points over and over again. Of course they really don't have much if any factual knowledge but can quote what they've read at B3D verbatim. I'm sure you know what I mean.
Considering that a lot of people (whether rightly or wrongly) immediately sieze on everything they read w/o checking into the matters at hand more throughly, maybe a counter to the people I mentioned is needed for true "freedom of choice"?


regards,

Mike G

 

[Pete]

Mike, I agree, and I noted DefRef kind of exploded on the scene here in defense of nV to counter some rather excessive ATi-pushing. But I don't think the solution to noise is more noise. I don't want to go from a forum with a few too many overzealous ATi fans to one with BOTH ATi and nVidia cheerleaders. B3D has its Hellbinders and Doomtroopers carrying the ATi flag, and while they usually have some good points, they drown them out in strident rhetoric that only serves to alienate everyone. Chalnoth is as passionate about nVidia, but his posts are much more civilized. DemoCoder also sticks up for nV (somewhat akin to how DefRef got fed up with the growing mob mentality), but DC goes about it in a much more rational manner, IME.

Genx87 and DefRef make quite a few good posts (heck, Genx started the 5700U thread as civilized as possible), but they've also made quite a few bad ones recently. I can accept getting annoyed, but I can't accept their ad-hom attacks on me when I try to correct them (in Genx87's case in the 9800XT review thread) or reign in a case of excessive defense (DefRef in this thread). Even if I'm wrong--if they think my correction is as misguided as I view those posts of theirs that I challenge--I expect at least a calm reply, not all this fanchimp and fanatic BS. I tried at least being nice, but I can't help but view some of their posts as nothing more than trolls--willfully ignorant or incendiary (I don't think Genx87 read or considered ONE of my replies in the 9800XT review thread, judging by his subsequent replies). Pity that I've resorted to calling them names as well, so I'm going to stop responding to posts I view as simple flame-bait from now on. It's better for everyone.

 

[Rogodin2]

I responded logically to any questions asked of me (my first account had the password changed), and you show a lack of maturity everytime you single me out in your posts-your interpretation of my posting proclivities is also invalid as well as your lack of knowledge about what I know about computers in genenral.

Instead of politely asking me why I recomend ati to most people you jump on the "Stupid Fanatics" bandwagon and then attact my virtual character in every post you can.

Luckily there are only a few people like yourself on this forum.


Rogo

 

[Pete]

Who was that directed at, Rogo?

 

[stardust]

Please pay attention to the Van's lights rite above Max payne's head. Notice that the ATI drivers were less rendered? (those lights are very close to the center of the screen so it shouldn't be affected by ATI's flower like AA filtering.

ATI drivers

Nvidia drivers

Very interesting indeed.

 

[RacerX]

Bah humbug!

It's a bug, pure and simple

Now all the evidence is in, the conclusion is much simpler to come to: ATi appears to have some kind of driver bug (possibly affecting gamma levels) that makes things appear darker than they should. There seems to be no performance benefit from doing this, so to call it a 'questionable optimisation' seems wholly inappropriate in light of this.

 

[Is]

Originally posted by: stardust
Please pay attention to the Van's lights rite above Max payne's head. Notice that the ATI drivers were less rendered? (those lights are very close to the center of the screen so it shouldn't be affected by ATI's flower like AA filtering.

ATI drivers

Nvidia drivers

Very interesting indeed.

Please tell me you're joking.

A) the area being rendered is so insignificant there is no way ATi would bother to intentionally render at a lower quality in order to gain performance

B) The difference is so small nobody but the most anal-retentive would ever, ever notice.

Now, I would say the same thing if it were Nvidia's card that had this, *ahem* rendering issue. It just doesn't matter. The Aquamark issue, I could understand. Sort of. The UT2k3 issue...maybe. But this?? It's a non-issue.

P.S. if that post was a joke...then here's egg on my face!

 

[Pete]

Yeah, nV's AF (not AA) seems to be a bit better on those two headlights and the brown pipes in the background. Surely that explains the 50% performance difference?! ;P

 

[stardust]

OK guys just sumthing I noticed.. sheesh

If I were to imply something it's not that ATI is cheating, but nVidia is correcting itself. But I guess I just wanted to see some controversy, oh well. Pete I am no nvdiot as my last 2 cards were ATI and my next one still also be ATI. You know that.

 

[stardust]

Originally posted by: Is

Originally posted by: stardust
Please pay attention to the Van's lights rite above Max payne's head. Notice that the ATI drivers were less rendered? (those lights are very close to the center of the screen so it shouldn't be affected by ATI's flower like AA filtering.

ATI drivers

Nvidia drivers

Very interesting indeed.

Please tell me you're joking.

A) the area being rendered is so insignificant there is no way ATi would bother to intentionally render at a lower quality in order to gain performance

B) The difference is so small nobody but the most anal-retentive would ever, ever notice.

Now, I would say the same thing if it were Nvidia's card that had this, *ahem* rendering issue. It just doesn't matter. The Aquamark issue, I could understand. Sort of. The UT2k3 issue...maybe. But this?? It's a non-issue.

P.S. if that post was a joke...then here's egg on my face!

LOL

edit: actually it's one of the first times i actually bothered clicking those comparisons and opening 2 windows, forgive me for having a keen eye.. I just thought it would be an interesting for people to notice it. If you didn't then leave it alone.

 

[Pete]

Stardust, I didn't say anything about that, did I? I was just joking, nothing more. I was in no way implying you were an nVidiot, and I'm not sure I've even used that term to refer to someone. I think some people here are trolling with excessively flamey posts, but I didn't associate that with an irrational love of a company, but rather an over-zealous attempt at forum moderation.

 

[stardust]

Fair enough

 

[BFG10K]

Um, did you read the article?

Yes, did you read the comment of mine that you quoted where I said some of the cheats were denied by Lars? On page 2 of this thread I list them with the appropriate quotes from the same article.

Lar's actions in that review are not what I would call ATi bashing by an stretch of the imagination. Maybe they are cheats and maybe they're bugs; the point is that he pretty much only mentioned them without jumping the gun.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Originally posted by: DefRef

Originally posted by: reever

as the 52.16s seem to have done what the Fanchimps promised they WOULDN'T do - run faster with good quality and no cheats.

And it's still not fast enough to catch up to ATI, and please go read up on the new filtering method in the 50 series, they do exibit lower quality

Well, considering that ATI is CHEATING to gain speed, I guess nVidia's at a disadvantage and what's wrong with the filtering - all I've seen is praise.

Fanchimps take reality poorly.

Still...my 9800Pro looks better than my friend's 5900Ultra with the same basic hardware and latest drivers for both. He even admits it looks better too so it doesn't matter what anyone says...

 

[cmdrdredd]

Originally posted by: hominid skull
I've changed the reference .png file on Toms site

check it out here so the brightness/colour saturation is similar to show both levels of smoke.

it's the same picture and I'm in graphics design

 

[cmdrdredd]

Originally posted by: Moralpanic
You have got to be kidding me? I see a BARELY noticeable difference in those... and even then, i still think the ATI fog looks much better than the Nvidia one.

yeah...that's what I say

 

[cmdrdredd]

Originally posted by: stardust
Please pay attention to the Van's lights rite above Max payne's head. Notice that the ATI drivers were less rendered? (those lights are very close to the center of the screen so it shouldn't be affected by ATI's flower like AA filtering.

ATI drivers

Nvidia drivers

Very interesting indeed.

actually...Max is standing in a very very clight different position and that could have something to do with it. You're really reaching here too. How do we even know what control panel settings were used?

 

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: RacerX

Bah humbug!

It's a bug, pure and simple

I agree with you there. The ATI card does produce a slightly darker image than it should be, as proven by the Nvidia card and the reference rasterizer. Take the ATI picture and brighten it up in photoshop - it thickens the fog right up.

So, hopefully ATI will fix this bug in the next driver - perhaps upping the brightness 5% should do the trick .

 

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: cmdrdredd

Originally posted by: stardust
Please pay attention to the Van's lights rite above Max payne's head. Notice that the ATI drivers were less rendered? (those lights are very close to the center of the screen so it shouldn't be affected by ATI's flower like AA filtering.

ATI drivers

Nvidia drivers

Very interesting indeed.

actually...Max is standing in a very very clight different position and that could have something to do with it. You're really reaching here too. How do we even know what control panel settings were used?

I just pointed the same thing out (a slight difference in Max's point of view) in another thread that stardust pointed this "cheat" out in. The thread is here .

This isn't grasping at straws, this is grasping at wisps of traces of fibres left on the table after straws were sitting on there. If ATI has some sort of app detection for this then that would be the silliest, most wasteful, stupid, pointless app detection ever.



ATI manager: "Oh no. The MP2_detect_headlight cheat has been found. We are in some serious trouble".

ATI engineer "Bwahahaha. How long do you think it will take those fools to discover the MP2_detect_lamp cheat???"

 

[stardust]

Pete, I've read many of your posts both here and at B3D and I have to agree with both your comments and tone-I do think that you are fair in your assessments.
But consider this in defense of the DefRef and Genx87 type posts-maybe these are just a reaction to the onslaught of crap in the 2 forums I've mentioned and many others.
Guys like Rogo(din/zhin/?), reever(2), DW, and many others join these forums and many others not to help but to just stir up s**t. They constantly denigrate NV and NV owners, often making the same points over and over again. Of course they really don't have much if any factual knowledge but can quote what they've read at B3D verbatim. I'm sure you know what I mean.
Considering that a lot of people (whether rightly or wrongly) immediately sieze on everything they read w/o checking into the matters at hand more throughly, maybe a counter to the people I mentioned is needed for true "freedom of choice"?


regards,

Mike G

My goodness somebody understands.

Jiffylube: Does staring at a wall in anygame for long periods of time suddenly warp the walls into new textures?

 

[stardust]

Originally posted by: jiffylube1024

Originally posted by: cmdrdredd

Originally posted by: stardust
Please pay attention to the Van's lights rite above Max payne's head. Notice that the ATI drivers were less rendered? (those lights are very close to the center of the screen so it shouldn't be affected by ATI's flower like AA filtering.

ATI drivers

Nvidia drivers

Very interesting indeed.

actually...Max is standing in a very very clight different position and that could have something to do with it. You're really reaching here too. How do we even know what control panel settings were used?

I just pointed the same thing out (a slight difference in Max's point of view) in another thread that stardust pointed this "cheat" out in. The thread is here .

This isn't grasping at straws, this is grasping at wisps of traces of fibres left on the table after straws were sitting on there. If ATI has some sort of app detection for this then that would be the silliest, most wasteful, stupid, pointless app detection ever.



ATI manager: "Oh no. The MP2_detect_headlight cheat has been found. We are in some serious trouble".

ATI engineer "Bwahahaha. How long do you think it will take those fools to discover the MP2_detect_lamp cheat???"

Didn't really mean for ATI to be cheating, just for Nvidia to have recovered as i have told u and others in both threads