ATI Radeon 4890 in April?

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
The 4890 will probably be a good match against a 260+ which you can buy for under $199.

Isn't the blatant spread of misinformation a violation of the TOS here?

The 4870 is already a good match against a 260+; a card that is 20% faster such as the 4890 will clearly outclass it.

I personally don't really care what you say on here so long as it's true, and I say that you should declare your NV affiliation if you have one (which seems quite likely).

 

[Nathelion]

Yup. They probably made some extremely minor architectural adjustments that could be 17% faster in highly optimized scenarios. So they called it 20% and went with it.
Also, yes you can generally crossfire AMD cards from the same generation without a problem.

 

[ronnn]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: Wreckage
The 4890 will probably be a good match against a 260+ which you can buy for under $199.

Isn't the blatant spread of misinformation a violation of the TOS here?

The 4870 is already a good match against a 260+; a card that is 20% faster such as the 4890 will clearly outclass it.

I personally don't really care what you say on here so long as it's true, and I say that you should declare your NV affiliation if you have one (which seems quite likely).

Think he is saying the 4890 will not be 20% faster. If this is a straight shrink he could be right.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: ronnn

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: Wreckage
The 4890 will probably be a good match against a 260+ which you can buy for under $199.

Isn't the blatant spread of misinformation a violation of the TOS here?

The 4870 is already a good match against a 260+; a card that is 20% faster such as the 4890 will clearly outclass it.

I personally don't really care what you say on here so long as it's true, and I say that you should declare your NV affiliation if you have one (which seems quite likely).

Think he is saying the 4890 will not be 20% faster. If this is a straight shrink he could be right.

They're still saying that it will be clocked higher. They're not going to name it the 4890 and have it be the same speed or slower than a 4870. I'm actually shocked that you would defend Wreckage's post. :Q

 

[BFG10K]

Edit: wrong thread.

 

[BFG10K]

Originally posted by: Obsoleet

Yup, made a huge mistake banning Rollo instead of him.

Has cut down on my readership here dramatically, now HardOCP gets my ad-views far more often.

Um, HardOCP banned Rollo too.

 

[AmberClad]

You folks should be intimately familiar with this concept already -- but do not derail this thread about the upcoming HD4890 any further with discussion about unrelated matters. That goes for anyone posting in this thread from this point on.

Originally posted by: MegaWorks
Guys Wreckage is known to be a jackass, I would just ignore him if I were you.

The second part of this post is not bad advice -- you all are free to ignore/disregard (or rebut) Wreckage's comments if you don't agree with them. The first part, though, is out of line and you ought to know better, MegaWorks.

- AmberClad (Video Mod)

 

[MegaWorks]

You're right AmberClad, I'm sorry for going out of line but sometimes I just feel like spell it out to everyone.

 

[chizow]

MegaWorks will be the first to admit he tends to "over-react".

In any case, I doubt there will be a 20-30% increase in performance from a 13% increase in core clocks on the RV790 unless it also comes with the fabled deactivated/harvested 12th SP/TMU clusters. We've heard this same rumor though for months now, this is at least the 3rd iteration of the rumor (remember the SuperRV770 anyone?) yet ATI still doesn't have a faster GPU than the 7 month old GT200.

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: chizow
yet ATI still doesn't have a faster GPU than the 7 month old GT200.

They don't need one. AMD has stated quite clearly that their goal is not to build large/expensive fast single GPUs. Instead, they will produce cheaper mid-range GPUs and bundle multiple cores on one PCB to handle their high end performance market.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Creig
They don't need one. AMD has stated quite clearly that their goal is not to build large/expensive fast single GPUs. Instead, they will produce cheaper mid-range GPUs and bundle multiple cores on one PCB to handle their high end performance market.

Sure they do, otherwise we wouldn't be entertaining these "SuperRV770" rumors every 2-3 months. The problem with being 2nd fastest is that the competition will still be faster in a multi-GPU environment using faster individual GPUs, which Nvidia has shown time and again (3870X2 vs. 9800GX2, 4870X2 vs. GTX 295).

In the past AMD has enjoyed a process edge allowing them to get their X2 product to launch sooner, but they won't enjoy that advantage going forward now that Nvidia has made it clear they're going to adopt newer processes sooner starting with 40nm. So unless their single GPU strategy, and by extension, their multi-GPU strategy involves placing 2nd always, they do absolutely want the faster single-GPU solution, they just haven't been able to provide one, hence the rumors.

 

[nosfe]

i think its more that the rv770 proved to be much better than they hoped and they now have a shot at beating nvidia at the single core card game using only a slight modification to the rv770. Making the best single core card out there isn't their priority, otherwise the rv770 would be a lot bigger or the rv790 would have long hit the market. I really doubt that they'll be able to do this with the next gen cards

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Isn't the blatant spread of misinformation a violation of the TOS here?

If so, you should be careful because your post is in violation.

Most review sites show a factory overclocked 260+ beating a 4870. This is a fact.

So an overclocked 4870 (which this new card appears to be), would be a good match. Although certainly not for $300.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Isn't the blatant spread of misinformation a violation of the TOS here?

your post is in violation

Actually if you look here you will see that a 4870 is within 5-10% of a 260+ that is factory overclocked. I'm sure that the 4870 would benefit at least 5-10% from overclocking, therefore IMO the two cards are equal making them a good match.

I don't think I will waste any more time arguing with you. You're just lucky that the 'mod rules' are somehow in your favor. :Q

 

[evolucion8]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
Isn't the blatant spread of misinformation a violation of the TOS here?

The 4870 is already a good match against a 260+; a card that is 20% faster such as the 4890 will clearly outclass it.

I personally don't really care what you say on here so long as it's true, and I say that you should declare your NV affiliation if you have one (which seems quite likely).

Just don't pay attention to what Wreckage states, he's just a blind troll which try so hard to be a member of the nVidia's Focus Group and yet, he fails miserably, Rollo was even more fair and impartial than him.

Originally posted by: Wreckage
If so, you should be careful because your post is in violation.

Most review sites show a factory overclocked 260+ beating a 4870. This is a fact.

So an overclocked 4870 (which this new card appears to be), would be a good match. Although certainly not for $300.

Yes, a factory overclocked one does beat the stock HD 4870 in about the 55% of the benchmarks, by a slim margin which is less than 10% and doesn't justify the price premium, you just overclock the HD 4870 and will outperform again the GTX 260+, but the HD 4870 SOMETIMES reaches and outpaces the GTX 280 in performance in games like GRID, Fallout 3 etc, something that the GTX 260+ overclocked cannot do, only in your dreams an overclocked GTX 260+ can outperform the HD 4870 with a margin higher than 10%. So in the end the only way that the HD 4890 can have such performance boost is having a higher amount of stream processors and higher clocks, unless if there's a driver tweak that can max the ALU usage, a 20% boost in performance will put it in between the GTX280 and GTX285 territory, and yet cheaper!!!, That will force nVidia AGAIN to lower prices which will benefits us all, so WRECKAGE, STAY IN TOPIC!! Thanks. :thumbsup:

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Actually if you look here you will see that a 4870 is within 5-10% of a 260+ that is factory overclocked. I'm sure that the 4870 would benefit at least 5-10% from overclocking, therefore IMO the two cards are equal making them a good match.

I don't think I will waste any more time arguing with you. You're just lucky that the 'mod rules' are somehow in your favor.

I couldn't said it better, and with never driver revisions, the ATi card performance has gone up.






Amberclad just posted above to knock off the attacks yet you continued. You have three days off for attacking wreckage in this post.


esquared
Anandtech Senior Moderator

 

[SlowSpyder]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Isn't the blatant spread of misinformation a violation of the TOS here?

If so, you should be careful because your post is in violation.

Most review sites show a factory overclocked 260+ beating a 4870. This is a fact.

So an overclocked 4870 (which this new card appears to be), would be a good match. Although certainly not for $300.

I love the way you twist things...

My guess is this new GPU will have more shaders enabled. They have them built in for redundancy, but by now their yeilds are probably very good, they are probably getting chips that all shaders work, they're just disabling some to keep it within RV770 spec. This makes perfect sense for AMD, no R&D for a new chip, just enabling everything that's already built in. AMD gets to charge more for the silicon they're already making, if I'm right about them just enabling the redundant parts.

I just bought Age of Conan (level 6 dark templar.... fear me!). Take a look at these benchmarks. How in the world do you think a card that is 20-25% faster than at 4870 would compete with the GTX260 216?

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Actually if you look here you will see that a 4870 is within 5-10% of a 260+ that is factory overclocked.

So this new card that is supposed to be 20% faster than a 4870 would then give it the same margin that the 260+ now has. Around 10% based on the numbers you provided. So you basically backed up what I have been saying.


I'm not saying it will be a bad card, I'm not saying the 4870 is a bad card. I'm just going over the numbers like everyone else.

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder


I just bought Age of Conan (level 6 dark templar.... fear me!). Take a look at these benchmarks. How in the world do you think a card that is 20-25% faster than at 4870 would compete with the GTX260 216?

Well here are 5 of the latest and most popular games tested and the 260+ has a margin upwards of 30%
http://www.bjorn3d.com/read.php?cID=1414

 

[MegaWorks]

No no noooo the 4890 will be let me seee now 25% faster than the GTX 285 based on the amount of stream processors and it's clock speed.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
you basically backed up what I have been saying

No I haven't. Your twisting my words acting like a spin-master may be in violation of the TOS though. :light:

 

[edplayer]

Originally posted by: allies

Originally posted by: Wreckage
snip

Alright, well do you agree that if the HD4890 performs comparably to the GTX285 while priced $299 and $340, respectively, that nvidia will have to lower the price of the 285 to remain competitive?*

*Of course, if you take advantage of CUDA or Stereoscopic gaming you'd have to go with the 285, but those things aside, but I'm asking my question to strictly a gamer without any interest in stereoscopic gaming.

Staying competitive doesn't matter, satisfying their sales/margins goals does. Seems like they are doing OK even with higher prices.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder
My guess is this new GPU will have more shaders enabled. They have them built in for redundancy, but by now their yeilds are probably very good, they are probably getting chips that all shaders work, they're just disabling some to keep it within RV770 spec. This makes perfect sense for AMD, no R&D for a new chip, just enabling everything that's already built in. AMD gets to charge more for the silicon they're already making, if I'm right about them just enabling the redundant parts.

If the RV790 was 40nm, like the last rumor, then there'd be a better chance of this being true, but on a 55nm process I highly doubt it'll get both a clock increase and the benefit of additional SP/TMUs. AMD already OC'd and overvolted RV770 once to get the 4870, at 1.3V they'll certainly be pushing the limits of this design. You're basically banking on a flawless RV770 core that handles additional overvolting and overclocking, which again, seems pretty optimistic to me. If it were so easy or feasible, I think AMD would've executed long ago, not 10 months after GT200 launched.

Originally posted by: MegaWorks
No no noooo the 4890 will be let me seee now 25% faster than the GTX 285 based on the amount of stream processors and it's clock speed.

So the 4890 is going to be faster then the 4870X2? Because that's about how much faster the 4870X2 is than the GTX 285 when it actually scales. In fact, the 285 actually beats the 4870X2 in quite a few games and resolutions. Based on some of the fuzzy logic in this thread, I guess that means AMD needs to drop the 4870X2 price to like $250 to compete with their own 4890. :laugh:

 

[MegaWorks]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: MegaWorks
No no noooo the 4890 will be let me seee now 25% faster than the GTX 285 based on the amount of stream processors and it's clock speed.

So the 4890 is going to be faster then the 4870X2? Because that's about how much faster the 4870X2 is than the GTX 285 when it actually scales. In fact, the 285 actually beats the 4870X2 in quite a few games and resolutions. Based on some of the fuzzy logic in this thread, I guess that means AMD needs to drop the 4870X2 price to like $250 to compete with their own 4890. :laugh:

Didn't you say that AMD needs a fast single GPU to compete with the nVidia, there you have it. The 4870X2 is a lot faster than 30%, where did you pull that number from.

In the past AMD has enjoyed a process edge allowing them to get their X2 product to launch sooner, but they won't enjoy that advantage going forward now that Nvidia has made it clear they're going to adopt newer processes sooner starting with 40nm. So unless their single GPU strategy, and by extension, their multi-GPU strategy involves placing 2nd always, they do absolutely want the faster single-GPU solution, they just haven't been able to provide one, hence the rumors.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder
My guess is this new GPU will have more shaders enabled. They have them built in for redundancy, but by now their yeilds are probably very good, they are probably getting chips that all shaders work, they're just disabling some to keep it within RV770 spec. This makes perfect sense for AMD, no R&D for a new chip, just enabling everything that's already built in. AMD gets to charge more for the silicon they're already making, if I'm right about them just enabling the redundant parts.

If the RV790 was 40nm, like the last rumor, then there'd be a better chance of this being true, but on a 55nm process I highly doubt it'll get both a clock increase and the benefit of additional SP/TMUs. AMD already OC'd and overvolted RV770 once to get the 4870, at 1.3V they'll certainly be pushing the limits of this design. You're basically banking on a flawless RV770 core that handles additional overvolting and overclocking, which again, seems pretty optimistic to me. If it were so easy or feasible, I think AMD would've executed long ago, not 10 months after GT200 launched.

I'm sure they can tweak what they have to get 850MHz... My chip can hit 830MHz as it is. Like I said, it's just a gauess. We'll have to wait and see what they come out with. The rumor mill keeps on churning. This whole thing could be B.S. as well. I think we've heard about this 'super' RV770 for a while now.

 

[tcsenter]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
They have had mostly losing quarters since the AMD purchase (not to mention billions in impairment charges). Especially following the R600 launch.

So essentially, ATI is now as consistent at losing money and taking on debt under AMD as AMD always was before the merger? Then ATI really has been assimilated, I guess.

If I buy a Rolls Royce for $250,000, let my incompetent nephew borrow it for the weekend, and he brings it back with the body falling off after ragging the piss out of it, can I take a charge for the amount that I "overpaid"? e.g. its now worth $50,000 (thanks to my nephew).

Hector Ruiz and Henri Richard = my trainwreck of a nephew

While I do believe ATI was overvalued by a good billion due to bullish thinking that marked the times, it was worth a helluva lot more than it is now that AMD took it for a spin. Meanwhile, AMD is limping along with products that don't quite measure up to Intel without aggressive pricing, just as AMD always has except for a highly unusual three-year period where AMD64 was better. The performance crown has been traded back and forth between ATI and NVIDIA far more than between AMD and Intel.

Ergo, AMD in its current state is the norm for AMD, albiet more tenuous financially than its normally tenuous financial position (i.e. more of the same).

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: chizow
If the RV790 was 40nm, like the last rumor, then there'd be a better chance of this being true, but on a 55nm process I highly doubt it'll get both a clock increase and the benefit of additional SP/TMUs. AMD already OC'd and overvolted RV770 once to get the 4870, at 1.3V they'll certainly be pushing the limits of this design. You're basically banking on a flawless RV770 core that handles additional overvolting and overclocking, which again, seems pretty optimistic to me. If it were so easy or feasible, I think AMD would've executed long ago, not 10 months after GT200 launched.

Why is the 4870 at the limits of the design? How could you possibly know that unless you have intimate knowledge of the architecture?