Originally posted by: Lithan
I mean 38XX arent bad cards but I wouldn't consider them commercially successful
Originally posted by: sirjonk
Originally posted by: geokilla
Nothing can go wrong now for ATI.
:laugh:
Too bad that they don't sell these cards well; AMD has 25% market share of discrete graphics cards. They reported one week ago that their sales on each and every one of their businesses have been smaller than expected.Originally posted by: schneiderguy
Originally posted by: Lithan
I mean 38XX arent bad cards but I wouldn't consider them commercially successful
Why not? The rv670 die is way smaller than G92 and a bit smaller than G94 so ATI is making more money off of each card sold than nvidia
Originally posted by: Rusin
Too bad that they don't sell these cards well; AMD has 25% market share of discrete graphics cards. They reported one week ago that their sales on each and every one of their businesses have been smaller than expected.Originally posted by: schneiderguy
Originally posted by: Lithan
I mean 38XX arent bad cards but I wouldn't consider them commercially successful
Why not? The rv670 die is way smaller than G92 and a bit smaller than G94 so ATI is making more money off of each card sold than nvidia
The biggest winner during the quarter was AMD?s ATI, which managed to increase shipments of its graphics adapters by whopping 29%, thanks to ATI Radeon HD 3800-series introduction and contract wins of the ATI Radeon HD 2000-series finally in full effect. Intel Corp. managed to boost sales of its chipsets with built-in graphics cores by 17%, just inline with the market trend. Nvidia Corp.?s and Silicon Integrated Systems Corp.?s shipments remained on the same levels, whereas Via Technologies/S3 graphics experienced dramatic 62.3% drop in sales of graphics products.
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
According to that link, ATi had a ~50% edge in marketshare over nV in Q4 '04, now nV has a 50% edge over ATi. That is very close to a complete collapse.
In realistic terms, ATi's highest end GPU, its' most bleeding edge part released can not compete with 2 year old nV technology. They very well may make a comeback, but the industry hasn't seen this kind of utter domination since the days of 3Dfx.
Originally posted by: Sylvanas
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
According to that link, ATi had a ~50% edge in marketshare over nV in Q4 '04, now nV has a 50% edge over ATi. That is very close to a complete collapse.
In realistic terms, ATi's highest end GPU, its' most bleeding edge part released can not compete with 2 year old nV technology. They very well may make a comeback, but the industry hasn't seen this kind of utter domination since the days of 3Dfx.
If by 2 year old technology you are referring to the G80, it's not meant to compete with it....the 3800 series are competitive on price- if you want a single card with better performance than a G80 (GTX) then thats the 3870X2- which is in the same price bracket. Note the market share difference in Q4 2004 and Q4 2007 between the two is about the same as it was evident back in the 9700pro days, so we have seen it before and will probably see it again.
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: Sylvanas
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
According to that link, ATi had a ~50% edge in marketshare over nV in Q4 '04, now nV has a 50% edge over ATi. That is very close to a complete collapse.
In realistic terms, ATi's highest end GPU, its' most bleeding edge part released can not compete with 2 year old nV technology. They very well may make a comeback, but the industry hasn't seen this kind of utter domination since the days of 3Dfx.
If by 2 year old technology you are referring to the G80, it's not meant to compete with it....the 3800 series are competitive on price- if you want a single card with better performance than a G80 (GTX) then thats the 3870X2- which is in the same price bracket. Note the market share difference in Q4 2004 and Q4 2007 between the two is about the same as it was evident back in the 9700pro days, so we have seen it before and will probably see it again.
No .. wishful thinking .. even though it is more elegant perhaps than Gx2, 3870x2 is still a compromise "sandwich card" .. and with the release of Gx2 , you need two x2s .. which is no real "solution"
Originally posted by: Sylvanas
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: Sylvanas
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
According to that link, ATi had a ~50% edge in marketshare over nV in Q4 '04, now nV has a 50% edge over ATi. That is very close to a complete collapse.
In realistic terms, ATi's highest end GPU, its' most bleeding edge part released can not compete with 2 year old nV technology. They very well may make a comeback, but the industry hasn't seen this kind of utter domination since the days of 3Dfx.
If by 2 year old technology you are referring to the G80, it's not meant to compete with it....the 3800 series are competitive on price- if you want a single card with better performance than a G80 (GTX) then thats the 3870X2- which is in the same price bracket. Note the market share difference in Q4 2004 and Q4 2007 between the two is about the same as it was evident back in the 9700pro days, so we have seen it before and will probably see it again.
No .. wishful thinking .. even though it is more elegant perhaps than Gx2, 3870x2 is still a compromise "sandwich card" .. and with the release of Gx2 , you need two x2s .. which is no real "solution"
That depends on what you subjectively classify as a 'solution'. Yes, some people don't like the concept of SLI/CF on a single card and don't think it a *real* *solution* but the fact I can plug it in and get higher frame rates than a single GPU (in the vast majority of games...emphasis on majority) is enough for me to deem it as a 'solution' to a problem of getting better performance. (insert 'but theres input lag' comment here....I haven't noticed it).
Will be interesting to see how things roll out over the next few months.
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: Sylvanas
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: Sylvanas
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
According to that link, ATi had a ~50% edge in marketshare over nV in Q4 '04, now nV has a 50% edge over ATi. That is very close to a complete collapse.
In realistic terms, ATi's highest end GPU, its' most bleeding edge part released can not compete with 2 year old nV technology. They very well may make a comeback, but the industry hasn't seen this kind of utter domination since the days of 3Dfx.
If by 2 year old technology you are referring to the G80, it's not meant to compete with it....the 3800 series are competitive on price- if you want a single card with better performance than a G80 (GTX) then thats the 3870X2- which is in the same price bracket. Note the market share difference in Q4 2004 and Q4 2007 between the two is about the same as it was evident back in the 9700pro days, so we have seen it before and will probably see it again.
No .. wishful thinking .. even though it is more elegant perhaps than Gx2, 3870x2 is still a compromise "sandwich card" .. and with the release of Gx2 , you need two x2s .. which is no real "solution"
That depends on what you subjectively classify as a 'solution'. Yes, some people don't like the concept of SLI/CF on a single card and don't think it a *real* *solution* but the fact I can plug it in and get higher frame rates than a single GPU (in the vast majority of games...emphasis on majority) is enough for me to deem it as a 'solution' to a problem of getting better performance. (insert 'but theres input lag' comment here....I haven't noticed it).
Will be interesting to see how things roll out over the next few months.
Your analysis might be correct except you are forgetting GX2
- it trounces 3870x2 and requires QuadCrossfireX to match or beat it.
So for GX2 it is true, some people don't like the concept of SLI/CF on a single card and don't think it a *real* *solution* but the fact I can plug GX2 in and get higher frame rates than ANY single GPU (in the vast majority of games...emphasis on majority) - including that *other* sandwich compromise - is enough for me to deem GX2 as the 'solution' to a problem of getting better performance. (insert 'but theres input lag' comment here....I haven't noticed it).
it goes two ways ... and AMD doesn't perform
When in fact ATI's highest end product does infact compete and perform better than 2 year old technology.ATi's highest end GPU, its' most bleeding edge part released can not compete with 2 year old nV technology
Originally posted by: Rusin
Sylvanas:
There's no $250 price difference between HD3870 X2 and 9800 GX2. Yes they have big price difference, but it's $170 at NewEgg..at least (Cheapest X2: $360, GX2: $530). You can still get 9600 GT SLI with $110 less money (even now when that Palit 9600 GT's price sky rocketed)..and 9600 GT SLI already wins HD3870 X2 (Because G94 seems to scale better for dual GPU solutions than RV670)
Originally posted by: Sylvanas
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: Sylvanas
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: Sylvanas
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
According to that link, ATi had a ~50% edge in marketshare over nV in Q4 '04, now nV has a 50% edge over ATi. That is very close to a complete collapse.
In realistic terms, ATi's highest end GPU, its' most bleeding edge part released can not compete with 2 year old nV technology. They very well may make a comeback, but the industry hasn't seen this kind of utter domination since the days of 3Dfx.
If by 2 year old technology you are referring to the G80, it's not meant to compete with it....the 3800 series are competitive on price- if you want a single card with better performance than a G80 (GTX) then thats the 3870X2- which is in the same price bracket. Note the market share difference in Q4 2004 and Q4 2007 between the two is about the same as it was evident back in the 9700pro days, so we have seen it before and will probably see it again.
No .. wishful thinking .. even though it is more elegant perhaps than Gx2, 3870x2 is still a compromise "sandwich card" .. and with the release of Gx2 , you need two x2s .. which is no real "solution"
That depends on what you subjectively classify as a 'solution'. Yes, some people don't like the concept of SLI/CF on a single card and don't think it a *real* *solution* but the fact I can plug it in and get higher frame rates than a single GPU (in the vast majority of games...emphasis on majority) is enough for me to deem it as a 'solution' to a problem of getting better performance. (insert 'but theres input lag' comment here....I haven't noticed it).
Will be interesting to see how things roll out over the next few months.
Your analysis might be correct except you are forgetting GX2
- it trounces 3870x2 and requires QuadCrossfireX to match or beat it.
So for GX2 it is true, some people don't like the concept of SLI/CF on a single card and don't think it a *real* *solution* but the fact I can plug GX2 in and get higher frame rates than ANY single GPU (in the vast majority of games...emphasis on majority) - including that *other* sandwich compromise - is enough for me to deem GX2 as the 'solution' to a problem of getting better performance. (insert 'but theres input lag' comment here....I haven't noticed it).
it goes two ways ... and AMD doesn't perform
Sure, but I was responding to:
When in fact ATI's highest end product does infact compete and perform better than 2 year old technology.ATi's highest end GPU, its' most bleeding edge part released can not compete with 2 year old nV technology
I'm not disputing the GX2's better performance, nor am I comparing it to a 3870X2- which it is significantly faster than, although which where I am a 3870X2 is at least $250 cheaper than a GX2- and thus occupies a different price bracket which ATI have not fulfilled this generation.....much like when the 2900 launched it was to compete with the G80 GTS not higher priced GTX.
Hang on .. are you trying to tell me you are *proud* of 3870x2 - finally, after nearly 2 years barely beating a SINGLE GPU?
no "word putting" .. i simply did not understand what you were saying ..Originally posted by: Sylvanas
Hang on .. are you trying to tell me you are *proud* of 3870x2 - finally, after nearly 2 years barely beating a SINGLE GPU?
No, you are putting words in my mouth. I was merely saying ATI's top offering does outperform the G80- Nothing more, I wasn't commenting if that's *good* or *bad*, note that I mentioned the *performance* difference between the two....yes it performs better, but if ATI had the same performance with a single GPU that would indeed be a BETTER *solution*(and a more than overdue one). If you want my opinion however, simply put, I'd say that ATI dropped the ball this round in relation to the high end- thats not a revelation however.
ATi's highest end GPU, its' most bleeding edge part released can not compete with 2 year old nV technology
Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
ATi's highest end GPU, its' most bleeding edge part released can not compete with 2 year old nV technology
I hate having to quote myself, but I feel it was required here as if I was trying to say GPUs then I would have typed GPUs instead of GPU. If you want to compare multi GPUs then the x2 should be put up against 8800GTXs in SLI- point would still stand. ATi's highest end GPU struggles hard against nVidia's low-mid range 9600GT in settings people use(w/AA) for a higher price point. They are using a more advanced build process already, they are using a bigger transistor budget already, they are consuming more watts already then their competitors when looking at comparable performance. They already have more raw power and more shading power, the design simply sucks, and sucks badly. nVidia made a horrific release with the FX series of cards, one they tried to put behind them fairly quickly- AMD doesn't seem to get that they released a complete dud and move past it, they keep finding new ways to put in people's faces that they can not compete. I was running ATi parts in my system from the R9500Pro up until a very short while ago, right now ATi's offerings are, at best, pathetic.
Maybe they will get things turned around with their next generation part and return to, at the VERY least, a competitive level, as of right now they look an awful lot like 3dfx did at the end.
Depends on how good their performance is. G80 was huge success for Nvidia because it sold pretty well compared to AMD's counter part.Originally posted by: Extelleron
The 3870 X2 may be dual-GPU, but that is just the way the market is heading. It is no longer possible (in general) to sustain GPU advancement with a single GPU setup. Look at the size of G80.... ~480-530mm^2 and that's not even including the display chip which was separate. No company wants to produce a chip that big, it's not good for business. Now look at the 3870 X2.... it is made up of 2 small chips 192mm^2 in size, allowing for excellent yields and cheap cost. R700 will be the same idea, it will be two relatively small chips that are not too expensive to make. Not only does this make manufacturing easier, it makes design easier; the same RV770 core in the high-end parts can be used in the midrange cards.
Now nVidia might be going for a last hurrah with GT200, which will probably be a similar size to G80. But it's just not sustainable, process technology cannot keep up with GPU advancement. A few years ago, a top of the line GPU was ~200mm^2. Now we're looking at 500mm^2 on much more advanced processes.
R700 will be a success against G92b chips, the question is of course how well it will compete against GT200. But with 50% more shading processors, 2X texture units (major bottleneck in R600 design), higher clockspeeds, and GDDR5 memory, I think it should be a success.
G92:Originally posted by: Shaq
GT200 will be quite a bit larger than G80. It consumes 225-250 watts vs. 177 watts and it is 65nm compared to 90nm. There have been reports that it barely fits on a PCB and is over 1 billion transistors. So what is that a 40%+ increase in transistors but a 28% decrease in process? It should be close to a 600mm^2 GPU. I think 40nm is after 55nm so we may be at the limit late next year.