ATI tries to downplay SLI

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Creig
Well, personally I'd agree that it's a niche market when compared to the total number of systems sold worldwide. It's mostly just the power users like us who get excited over things like this. The average Joe/Jane on the street doesn't have a clue what SLI is or what it's good for.

SLI is going to benefit the WORKSTATION graphics marketplace IMMEDIATELY . . . and if it is "niche" it is "niche" with UNlimited money to spend on HW.

:roll:

gamers will benefit as a "side" . . sli is the "future" and ati better get with it or get left behind

:roll:

sli isn't the future, just as 3dfx isn't the future. working smarter, rather than harder, is generally the preferred way to deal with these matters. people prefer simplicity of complexity, and less cost over more cost.

sli might be considered a "stop gap", but frankly it's not here yet, has many unaswered questions, and there will certainly be other viable options available by the time sli is actually available.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Todd33
ATI is 100% right. Hardly anyone buys $400 video cards and even less will buy two. While the geeks that hang here might buy SLI, 99.7% of the general computing public won't and are happy with their 9200SEs.

So, the market is very very small for SLI.

ati is dead wrong . . . but then nVidia already has the graphics workstation market. . . . 99.9% of these BIG spenders will upgrade to sli . . . sooner, rather than later - this is the MOST cost effective upgrade for them and they wont mind dropping a few Gs on dual Quadros in sli.



:roll:

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
I never said anything against your PSU im just syaing TT is going more flashy than quality.

Also not so sure about fans, shouldn't be considerably louder than the X800's fans unless you have somethign like leadtek which uses enormous high speed fans. They should be on par with 9800Pro. How do you know nothing is wrong with your fans

-Kevin

"flashy" is subjective. as far as quality (or lack of as you imply), please show me what your statement is based on. i have yet to read anything negative whatsoever regarding these power supplies, and my first hand experience has shown (at least this one in particular) that it certainly deserves the good reviews it's recived.

regarding noise, as i said, there's plenty of comments on these boards (and others) regarding the audible noise output of the ref. cooler.

 

[Genx87]

I have 4 case fans, 1 CPU fan, and a GT.

Honestly this is the most quiet machine I have ever built. When it is on the only thing I can hear is the CPU fan once it hits 6000 RPM. But even then I have to listen to it. Or the HD when it access's. Otherwise the thing is nearly silent. Which IMO is a big surprise because of all my machines, this one has the most amount of fans.

 

[VIAN]

I guess you can't afford it, the people who can will consider SLI and the people who can't will moan like Vian!

From a price/performance perspective, it's unreasonable.

And Pete is the man for saying some good Sh|t.

 

[nitromullet]

IMO, the future and usefulness of SLI depends on what advances are made in graphics core manufacturing over the next few years. If it is true that chipamkers have reached a road block with regards to increasing transistor count while reducing size, then multiple chip configurations seem like a viable soluiton. On the otherhand, if a new technology enables chips to continue to increase in transistor count and reduce core size then having mutlple chips/cards doesn't make sense. Aside from the flexible upgrade options that many have already mentioned, it would seem that a single board with multiple cores would be preferable to an SLI solution, since the memory could be truely shared instead of duplicated as it is in SLI. Of course, as it is with SMP, doubling the gpu's will most likely not yield almost double the performance and will vary depending on application.

All of that being said, if they were available today, my next mobo purchase would be SLI ready.

 

[BeTomXXX]

Me as a current ATI owner think it is good to have the option there. I don't care wich brand of chip is on my card as long as it is well supported and plays the games I like well.
And I hope for ATI they will implement sli on there next cards beacause it is good to have more options.
I currently don't need more performance for now, but i know time will come (probably soon) that also this card will be too slow. Adding the same card at a lower price for some extra punch would be great.

 

[nitromullet]

From a price/performance perspective, it's unreasonable.

Increased options are never bad from a price/performance perspective. Usually, the more choices there are, the cheaper one of them gets. What if dual PCIe SLI drives the cost down of AGP solutions...? Not saying it will, but without an alternative or a reason to swtich to PCIe there is still not much of a reason for AGP mobo's and video cards to drop in price. The one thing that you can count on as PCIe takes hold (SLI or not) is that the price of AGP will drop. Seeing as how we haven't even maxed out AGP 8x, I imagine that AGP will remain a good price/performance option for the value minded for at least the next 2-3 years. The reason that I mention this in reagrds to SLI is due to that fact that right now there is no good reason to switch over to a PCIe video card unless you just have to have the latest and greatest. However, if you have the option of doubling them up (which you can't do with AGP) there is all of a sudden a reason for people to make the swtich.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: VIAN

I guess you can't afford it, the people who can will consider SLI and the people who can't will moan like Vian!

From a price/performance perspective, it's unreasonable.

And Pete is the man for saying some good Sh|t.

if you think it is UNreasonable, you don't "get" it (or don't want to) or you are hopelessly stuck in the past.

It IS the FUTURE . . . get used to it . . . "dual core"/"Multicore" get very accustomed to these words . . .
. . . guaranteed UNLESS there is a GIGANTUIC technological breakthrough that can be implemented IMMEDIATEDLY, there isn't much SMALLER we can go . .. how much BELOW .09 microns? Mfgs will be FORCED to do multi-core to gain SIGnificant performance increases we are USED to.

SLI will overtake the workstation marketplace first . . . then gaming . . . unless r500 is "magic" ati might as well roll over and die . . . they will spin and spin and come up with more marketing BS and THEN they will follow nvidia in implementing it. -or else

of course this is my opinion . . . but i will bet on it.

:roll:

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
yea, i do. and it's louder than my x800, and generates quite a bit more heat.

as far as power, i have a 480w tt silent purepower, and neither card gives me an issue. i am however, only running one at a time; my comment was concern over running two.

Seeing as how a single 6800GT with an Athlon FX and a Gig of DDR400 or faster has no trouble on a quality 350W PSU, I don't think dual 6800s or 6600GTs will have any trouble on a quality 420W PSU or more.

Hell, 480W Thermaltake PSUs can be had at Newegg for $73.50 shipped. It's not like plenty of power at good prices is hard to find, or expensive.

 

[VIAN]

if you think it is UNreasonable, you don't "get" it (or don't want to) or you are hopelessly stuck in the past.

It IS the FUTURE . . . get used to it . . . "dual core"/"Multicore" get very accustomed to these words . . .
. . . guaranteed UNLESS there is a GIGANTUIC technological breakthrough that can be implemented IMMEDIATEDLY, there isn't much SMALLER we can go . .. how much BELOW .09 microns? Mfgs will be FORCED to do multi-core to gain SIGnificant performance increases we are USED to.

SLI will overtake the workstation marketplace first . . . then gaming . . . unless r500 is "magic" ati might as well roll over and die . . . they will spin and spin and come up with more marketing BS and THEN they will follow nvidia in implementing it. -or else

of course this is my opinion . . . but i will bet on it.

SLI isn't the future, it's just a cheap ass way to get double the pipelines with an increased latency between them. A VPU is already multicore. SLI is only important in workstations because they need that much power and they have the money.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: Todd33
ATI is 100% right. Hardly anyone buys $400 video cards and even less will buy two. While the geeks that hang here might buy SLI, 99.7% of the general computing public won't and are happy with their 9200SEs.

So, the market is very very small for SLI.

Back to what I've been saying, the market is very small for enthusiast cards in general. That's beside the point.

In the gaming market, SLI has the potential to make a significant impact.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: apoppin
if you think it is UNreasonable, you don't "get" it (or don't want to) or you are hopelessly stuck in the past.

It IS the FUTURE . . . get used to it . . . "dual core"/"Multicore" get very accustomed to these words . . .
. . . guaranteed UNLESS there is a GIGANTUIC technological breakthrough that can be implemented IMMEDIATEDLY, there isn't much SMALLER we can go . .. how much BELOW .09 microns? Mfgs will be FORCED to do multi-core to gain SIGnificant performance increases we are USED to.

This is very true.


Maybe people didn't notice because the announcements were so quiet, but both AMD and Intel have announced dual core processors that will be shipping in '05. AMD has said quad-core procs will see the desktop in '07.

Prescott is already demonstrating the problems we're starting to run into with micronization. Of course, part of that it Intel's fault for still trying to brute force. Clockspeed is not the future...parallelism is. Instead of multitasking 5 apps on one processor, multitask 5 apps on 5 processors...the speed increase should be...rather noticable...

AMD figured this out back with the Athlon XP. They were way ahead of the game. Processor efficiency is much better than raw clockspeeds these days.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: VIAN

if you think it is UNreasonable, you don't "get" it (or don't want to) or you are hopelessly stuck in the past.

It IS the FUTURE . . . get used to it . . . "dual core"/"Multicore" get very accustomed to these words . . .
. . . guaranteed UNLESS there is a GIGANTUIC technological breakthrough that can be implemented IMMEDIATEDLY, there isn't much SMALLER we can go . .. how much BELOW .09 microns? Mfgs will be FORCED to do multi-core to gain SIGnificant performance increases we are USED to.

SLI will overtake the workstation marketplace first . . . then gaming . . . unless r500 is "magic" ati might as well roll over and die . . . they will spin and spin and come up with more marketing BS and THEN they will follow nvidia in implementing it. -or else

of course this is my opinion . . . but i will bet on it.

SLI isn't the future, it's just a cheap ass way to get double the pipelines with an increased latency between them. A VPU is already multicore. SLI is only important in workstations because they need that much power and they have the money.

You are right about ONE thing - sli IS important in workstations right NOW . . .

however, as costs drop and NForce4 - due out THIS year - will support 2 nVidia cards, sli will BECOME important for gaming . . . just 'not yet'.

'cheap ass' - sure; 'effective' - undoubtedly . . . since both ati AND nvidia are "cheap-ass" we can EXPECT to see sli as MAINstream in a few years (IMO)

 

[fsstrike]

Originally posted by: Rollo
http://www.oc-zone.com/modules.php?name=Articles&rop=conteudo&id=65

The truth is that these kind of exotic arrangements are of interest to only a tiny minority of gamers. Almost all of the X800 boards that are sold will go into a standard PC. Putting several chips onto one board, or several boards into one machine makes the system very expensive and most people won?t go there.

Also note that the SLI system from NVIDIA is another example of an unbalanced design. It will draw an amazing amount of power (for most people that will necessitate a new power supply) and will generate a massive amount of heat and noise. As a technology demonstration it is interesting, but as a gaming setup - it?s crazy!

Hmmm. Apparently Huddy doesn't remember V2 sli. It was OBSCENELY expensive for it's time, but EVERYONE got one.

3dfx went out of buisness. If their SLI was such a huge success im sure it would have lasted longer than it did Not that it was voodoo2's fault, but if it was so good wouldnt it of been able to keep 3dfx alive much longer?

 

[T9D]

SLI is going to rule.

Let me tell you, if I had the chance to just go out and buy another 9700 pro and SLI it I'd do it in a second! Well when my next card is an Nvidia what do you thin I'm going to want to do a year or two from now? I'm going to be stoked I can SLI it and get way more peformance.

And the motherboard upgrade and powersupply is not going to be an issue. I'm going to have to buy another motherboard for a new processor some day anyway. And I'm going to want a new powersupply (I want one of those quiet ones from vantec anyway).

SLI is a winner.

 

[VIAN]

You know what, why am I even arguing. You go buy it if you want to.

If you are rich and are willing to buy an SLI setup at least every year, then go ahead. But otherwise, like some people say, I'll buy one card and then when the new gen comes out I'll buy the same card and SLI it, there is no point into doing that.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I invision a Dual core A64 with nV SLi graphics solution in one of my future boxen :sun: nV and AMD have a good business relationship, and I would go so far as to speculate they are working together on a dual core SLi design that will eventually find it's way to market.

As Apoppin mentioned the workstation crowd will embrace SLi, and dual core A64 into the deal wouldn't be frowned upon I should think Also, isn't Via rumored to be supporting SLi in an upcoming chipset of their own? If so that would indicate they don't want to be left out, and perhaps for good reason.

The comments about SLi as a marketing win can be very important. ATi picked up partners and market share while wearing the performance crown for 2yrs or so, and that demonstrates the power performance leadership has on OEMs. nV could take some of that lost ground back with a well marketed campaign.

Given what I've read about all the manufacturing issues CPU&GPU makers are facing, I think we may need a stop gap for a few years while a better packaging tech is implemented, and IMO it's not a bad thing as some think it is. Present packaging tech seems to be hitting a wall and parallel computing is the logical alternative if dual core CPUs from Intel and AMD, and Sli are any indication.

 

[Concillian]

All I know is that 2 SLI cards sure will bring a whole lot more performance boost than low latency RAM, and people sure are willing to shell out pretty big bucks to buy specialty low latency RAM.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: fsstrike

Voodoo 2 went out of buisness. If their SLI was such a huge success im sure it would have lasted longer than it did

study your history

SLI was NOT the reason 3dfx went out of business . . .

ATI's "SLI" - radeon maxx SHOULD have been the reason ati went out of business (but it didn't)

:roll:

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: fsstrike

Voodoo 2 went out of buisness. If their SLI was such a huge success im sure it would have lasted longer than it did

Ok, some education needed here:

1) The company was called 3dfx.

2) They didn't go out of business due to poor sales of their cards. They went out of business because they didn't diversify. 3dfx sold cards to gamers only - not a high revenue area, since we are such a small portion of the market. When they screwed up on two launches in a row, they were done.

Now, Nvidia just screwed up on two launches in a row with the NV30 and NV35 parts. Yet, they hardly felt a tickle from it. Why? Diversity. Nvidia ships motherboard chipsets, workstation cards, budget cards, mainstream cards, PDA and cell phone graphics chips, and more, in addition to these fancy gaming cards we all make such a big deal out of.



You've probably heard the old adage about "diversifying your assets for security" - well, both ATi and NV have done it, which is why neither one is going anywhere soon regardless of how their high end parts perform.

 

[Gamingphreek]

NV 35 wasn't exactly a screw up. Yeah probably not the best product out there but it definately wasn't a screw up like the NV30 was.
Also something people tend to neglect is that Nvidia has dominance in the Worstation Graphics area, ATI cards are Piss poor in that area. Also Nvidia has more "well known", tried and true chipsets out than ATI. Nvidia has buit up a very good name foritself in the chipset industry, so even if they were to lose another round they probably still wouldn't get hurt too badly.

-Kevin

 

[eastvillager]

The high-end enthusiast market may be small, but its influence is out of proportion to its size.

People are always asking me what they should get in their next pc. Knowing that they could get a midrange nvidia card, and then move up to sli if they needed it is a point in the nvidia column.




Maybe you guys who think the high-end is so 'niche' should convince nvidia and ati to stop wasting their money on it, since you know so much more about how the market works. snicker.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: Insomniak

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
yea, i do. and it's louder than my x800, and generates quite a bit more heat.

as far as power, i have a 480w tt silent purepower, and neither card gives me an issue. i am however, only running one at a time; my comment was concern over running two.

Seeing as how a single 6800GT with an Athlon FX and a Gig of DDR400 or faster has no trouble on a quality 350W PSU, I don't think dual 6800s or 6600GTs will have any trouble on a quality 420W PSU or more.

Hell, 480W Thermaltake PSUs can be had at Newegg for $73.50 shipped. It's not like plenty of power at good prices is hard to find, or expensive.

so you're saying you double the power requirements, but only require 30% more psu? i'll believe it when i see it

as it is, i've seen people complain (and some review testers as well) of having issues with a GT requiring a molex on it's own line - so would an Ultra require 4, and what psu would support THAT? that's an extreme example tho, as i realize if this were ever mainstream they would use lower end cards, but still...

and while you're doubling the cost, the thermal output, noise, power requirements, and complexity, you're not doubling the performance. "smart" solutions have always won over "brute force" solutions in the end. there's a reason why "add on" 3d accelerators, sli and rage maxx went the way of the dinosaur. they were only a "stop gap" until technology offered cleaner, simpler, more powerful and more efficient solutions. honestly (and i belive quite realistically), the only way this may become anything resembling a viable option is if single card solutions will never get any faster than they are now, and that's quite unlikely.

why do people upgrade to a new motherboard and $800 EE & FX cpus rather than just getting a dual cpu board and adding another p4 or athlon xp chip? and does a dual cpu double the performance? no.. what makes you think gfx card will be any different?

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: fsstrike

Voodoo 2 went out of buisness. If their SLI was such a huge success im sure it would have lasted longer than it did

study your history

SLI was NOT the reason 3dfx went out of business . . .

ATI's "SLI" - radeon maxx SHOULD have been the reason ati went out of business (but it didn't)

:roll:

lol.. yea, they dropped sli long before they went out of business. why did they drop it? it was an expensive, cumbersome solution, and cleaner, more efficient solutions were required. not exaclty historical evidence in favor of sli.

part of the reason 3dfx failed was their failure to evolve into simpler, smarter, more efficient architecture. their "brute force" mentality only showed the lack of vision of their engineers. compounded by poor business decisions, it signaled the death of a company potential was once unlimited.