ATI tries to downplay SLI

[Rage187]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: gururu

Originally posted by: apoppin

Guaranteed - we WILL see "sli" from ati.

:roll:

is it SLI as we know it, or just the ability to run chips in parallel like the 3dfx VSA100(?) chips. I know the Rage MAXX was something like that with two cores and double the memory. that'd be interesting, althought they may hesitate to do it again since it didn't end up being a good solution. It wasn't twice as fast, maybe because their drivers were still in their infancy.

The ONLY problem with the MAXX was writing drivers for it . . . evidently that IS the hard part.

All we "know" is that a multi-chip or multi-core functionality is built-in to the r300 and later . . . ati hasn't given us the 'details'.

clearly, ati will do it if nVidia is successful with theirs.

Thats the point we are bringing up.

They down play it now, then will turn around and do it themselves.

What they should have done instead of knocking it was say something like

"We are waiting to see what happens in the other camp before making our decision"



This way they dont totally look like a bunch of hypocritical butt munches like they do now.

 

[jhbball]

Originally posted by: Rage187

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: gururu

Originally posted by: apoppin

Guaranteed - we WILL see "sli" from ati.

:roll:

is it SLI as we know it, or just the ability to run chips in parallel like the 3dfx VSA100(?) chips. I know the Rage MAXX was something like that with two cores and double the memory. that'd be interesting, althought they may hesitate to do it again since it didn't end up being a good solution. It wasn't twice as fast, maybe because their drivers were still in their infancy.

The ONLY problem with the MAXX was writing drivers for it . . . evidently that IS the hard part.

All we "know" is that a multi-chip or multi-core functionality is built-in to the r300 and later . . . ati hasn't given us the 'details'.

clearly, ati will do it if nVidia is successful with theirs.

Thats the point we are bringing up.

They down play it now, then will turn around and do it themselves.

What they should have done instead of knocking it was say something like

"We are waiting to see what happens in the other camp before making our decision"



This way they dont totally look like a bunch of hypocritical butt munches like they do now.

how old are you? 5?

 

[Corporate Thug]

The truth is that these kind of exotic arrangements are of interest to only a tiny minority of gamers. Almost all of the X800 boards that are sold will go into a standard PC. Putting several chips onto one board, or several boards into one machine makes the system very expensive and most people won?t go there.

Also note that the SLI system from NVIDIA is another example of an unbalanced design. It will draw an amazing amount of power (for most people that will necessitate a new power supply) and will generate a massive amount of heat and noise. As a technology demonstration it is interesting, but as a gaming setup - it?s crazy!

i agree with this...

it does apply to a small minority. not sure about the power consumption but i'm willing to bet it draws quite a bit

 

[Rage187]

Originally posted by: jhbball

Originally posted by: Rage187

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: gururu

Originally posted by: apoppin

Guaranteed - we WILL see "sli" from ati.

:roll:

is it SLI as we know it, or just the ability to run chips in parallel like the 3dfx VSA100(?) chips. I know the Rage MAXX was something like that with two cores and double the memory. that'd be interesting, althought they may hesitate to do it again since it didn't end up being a good solution. It wasn't twice as fast, maybe because their drivers were still in their infancy.

The ONLY problem with the MAXX was writing drivers for it . . . evidently that IS the hard part.

All we "know" is that a multi-chip or multi-core functionality is built-in to the r300 and later . . . ati hasn't given us the 'details'.

clearly, ati will do it if nVidia is successful with theirs.

Thats the point we are bringing up.

They down play it now, then will turn around and do it themselves.

What they should have done instead of knocking it was say something like

"We are waiting to see what happens in the other camp before making our decision"



This way they dont totally look like a bunch of hypocritical butt munches like they do now.

how old are you? 5?

yeah, I'm 5, you got me.






Nope, age 27 SQA engineer for a game company.

 

[rbV5]

All we "know" is that a multi-chip or multi-core functionality is built-in to the r300 and later . . . ati hasn't given us the 'details'.

We have some details, ATI multi-chip parts are the simulator solutions from Evans and Sutherland Link I can't recall the amount of chips they support (up to 24 IIRC) Here's a shot with a couple Link, but this isn't PC stuff.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: shady06

The truth is that these kind of exotic arrangements are of interest to only a tiny minority of gamers. Almost all of the X800 boards that are sold will go into a standard PC. Putting several chips onto one board, or several boards into one machine makes the system very expensive and most people won?t go there.

Also note that the SLI system from NVIDIA is another example of an unbalanced design. It will draw an amazing amount of power (for most people that will necessitate a new power supply) and will generate a massive amount of heat and noise. As a technology demonstration it is interesting, but as a gaming setup - it?s crazy!

i agree with this...

it does apply to a small minority. not sure about the power consumption but i'm willing to bet it draws quite a bit

who cares about power consumption? (long as it is quiet)

for a bad analogy . . . "excessive gas consumpion" never stopped the SUV from being America's most popular vehicle.

:roll:




ATI can do multi chips too

Someone from the mpb asked ATI about multi chip solutions, are they possible and what is ATI doing about it. He said "yes" to that and we remembered ATI Rage fury MAXX card with two Rage chip that was not that successful but possible and real. I remember that that card was without Windows 2000 drivers as ATI simply could not make them, then.

Dave said that they are shipping multi chip solutions even now, I guess he thought about the MAXX card, if not we would like to ask him what card he had in mind. And if not of course we humbly apologise, naturally.

It's all about the cost Dev said, "If you act like a technology freak company you would go for multi chip card but you have to act as a business company and to see does this kind of solution makes sense," according to our notes. We used our own interpretation of his words as Dev didn?t use the word "freak" in his statement.

You can always sell few thousands of those cards but you could not make the money on them, still he didn?t talked how interesting this solution might be from marketing point of view.

He said his brother is one of the guys that would buy this kind of device as he has the money, likes games and have 40+ not many gamers are in this position we have to add. Dev (Dave?) added that multi processor solution makes sense when power consumption gets to high and then the only solution is to migrate to dual core chips or even two chip solutions.

He added that when cost of the chip and developing process gets higher then ATI will move to multi chips. He was not precise to say when.

ATI chips can work together he said but its all about driver I guess. Those are not easy to be made.

There is a more detailed article about ati's "sli" . . . x-bit labs maybe?

 

[apoppin]

ATI multi chip cards for the military

WE'VE HAD QUITE a few emails about our news where "Dave" said that ATI is already shipping multi chip devices. Here is the original.
You all should look here as this is one famous company that makes simulators for military purposes. Those machines put games like Doom 3 in shame as they have to simulate planes, battles and tanks.

It occurs to me that the military has to have its own 3D programmers for such a project even though many of such projects are done by contractors. Imagine being a major programming DirectX 9 military simulation, I am sure that there are some. Maybe they even read the INQ, you never know.

Some of their machines such as simFUSION use two Radeon 9700/9800 chips on one card. You can see them here.

Another machine is The EXP-500 and you can see its details here.

Meanwhile, the Baumann guy that is at Beyond3d pointed us to two machines - the E&S SimFUSION 6000 and the SGI Onyx Reality 4. Both of them use multiple R300 chips - R350 for RenderBEAST.

Those chips have a tiling mechanism that regionalises the rendering portions to different pipelines. He said that this method is also applies across numerous chips. This is a hardware function, not a driver function.

Our friends at techbit.ca told us that ATI confirmed to them our news about multi chip cards and Patricia Mikula, ATI's PR manager said in a recent meeting that the X800 line of cards could support up to 256 cores operating together with each card capable of addressing 1GB of memory.

When you think about it, you could have 256 X800 Platinum chips clocked at 520MHz with 256GB memory on one huge card. I guess you would get 2000 FPS in Doom 3 with FSAA 16X and Aniso 32 X. The only trouble with this kind of card, apart from the cost, is that we are not sure there are there 256 Platinum chips available.

If you are really well in with ATI you might get a card with two cores to play your Doom 3 at amazing frame rate. Could this be the answer to Nvidia's SLI?

this isn't what i was looking for . . . but interesting.

 

[Dakey]

oh i bet i can keep it cool ! once the bugs are out that is !!
After all isnt 2 better than one?

!! da Rig !!
Im still going to get a x800xt platinum unless some vendor drops a 1.6ns ultra without a green board out there A$$. I am allergic to plasticy green stuff.

 

[nRollo]

Another thing I liked about that article is his DX9 BS spin doctoring:

There?s no way to avoid SM3.0 in the future, so the critical question is not ?Will ATI adopt SM3.0?. Instead it?s ?When will ATI adopt SM3.0?. Right now we think it?s a poor choice for the current generation, and that?s aggravated by the fact that there are basically no SM3.0 games available.

BUT:

They have certainly fixed a number of issues which made the 5900 series a poor choice (the biggest was that it was simply woefully slow when running DX9 games)

Sure thing, PR guy. There were lots and lots of DX9 games out last year that made the 5900 a bad choice for gamers......

:roll:

People wonder why I pimp nVidia these days- articles like this are a good example.

 

[Genx87]

What I find funny is he is talking about how it is a small minority of players who will do this. But then he goes on to try and sell a X800 Pro for 400 bucks which is a small market of gamers.

If people are willing to spend 400 bucks on a single solution. What would make him think they wouldnt be willing to spend 550 bucks on a solution that will equal 24 pipes(2 6800NUs)

Or 800 bucks on two GTs. I mean it isnt like these things dont speed up the game. From what I hear it is pretty much 70-100% gains in performance.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: shady06

i agree with this...

it does apply to a small minority. not sure about the power consumption but i'm willing to bet it draws quite a bit

Maybe you guys missed me earlier.

GAMING PCs ARE A SMALL MINORITY! ALL OF US! PUT TOGETHER! ARE A SMALL MINORITY!

It applies to us. We don't mean sh*t for revenue. Ever wonder how Intel is the market leader in graphics chips even though they don't ship a single high end part?

Jesus, take the blinders off please. Of COURSE it only applies to a small minority. That's all it possibly could apply to!

 

[KeithP]

I think this will help sell a lot of nVidia chipset motherboards. People will think they will use SLI in the future and will want a board that supports it. Now if they actually go SLI in the future is an entirely different story but purchase decisions will be swayed none the less.

If I had to bet one way or the other, I would bet there will be a lot more people going SLI than we would expect. With bigger LCD displays getting cheaper all the time there will be more and more people wanting something to drive them at their native resolutions with good game performance. An SLI rig should do that pretty well.

It will be interesting to see actual performance numbers when mothersboards w/SLI become available.

To add one thing though...

I see several people have mentioned the V2 SLI rig costing $600 however, as a percentage of the overall cost of the system it was much less. When people were putting V2 SLI set-ups in their computers, the rest of the rig was probably an easy $2000-$2,5000. Now, a top end gaming rig is probably under $1,500. So as a percentage of the cost of the overall system, depending on what cards you use together, nVidia's new SLI is quite a bit more expensive.

-KeithP

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: KeithP
I see several people have mentioned the V2 SLI rig costing $600 however, as a percentage of the overall cost of the system it was much less. When people were putting V2 SLI set-ups in their computers, the rest of the rig was probably an easy $2000-$2,5000. Now, a top end gaming rig is probably under $1,500. So as a percentage of the cost of the overall system, depending on what cards you use together, nVidia's new SLI is quite a bit more expensive.

-KeithP

Rigs haven't gotten cheaper, we've just stopped getting taken. Back when the Voodoo2 was king, there was no newegg. E-tail was a nonexistent thing. Rigs don't cost more now, it's just that we don't have to buy them from Alienware, and the labor costs and shipping costs and mark-up for profit they stack on top of the actual cost for the rig.

 

[gururu]

Originally posted by: Insomniak


Rigs haven't gotten cheaper, we've just stopped getting taken. Back when the Voodoo2 was king, there was no newegg. E-tail was a nonexistent thing. Rigs don't cost more now, it's just that we don't have to buy them from Alienware, and the labor costs and shipping costs and mark-up for profit they stack on top of the actual cost for the rig.

Rigs are way cheaper. I've built my computers since 95 and always got parts at computer shows, which sold parts cheaper than big retail. It cost me $2000 to put a decent gaming rig together.
Nowadays $2000, even with inflation, one can get a lot more for the money. although I will say that 600 then is probably like 800 now. So if anything, an SLI rig today is cheaper overall, even if the SLI part constitutes a larger portion of the total computer cost.

 

[VIAN]

SLI sucks big floppy donkey D*ck.

 

[Pete]

SLI is cool in theory, but I don't see what's wrong with Orton's quote. Everyone here keeps saying they'll just buy two nV cards and SLI them, but you won't do that. You'll buy two SLI cards, then a MB with dual PEG slots, then a beefier PSU to support both cards. This isn't as simple as Voodoo 2's plug and play.

It's definitely a nice option for those who can afford it, but is its cost spread out to everyone who buys an nV card? I doubt SLI will become mainstream anytime soon. It seems like a lot of effort for something most people won't use. nV is certainly right to try to attract a steady base of big spenders who're willing to shell out big bucks for SLI systems, but this doesn't seem very cost-effective for the vast majority of people, at least not until huge PSUs and dual-PEG MBs become standard fare.

Rollo, there was nothing wrong with all the statements you quoted. Of course ATi PRmeisters will try to spin you their way, but those quotes are all perfectly reasonable. You're just interpreting them from the lofty viewpoint of someone who can spend upwards of $1K/yr on video cards. Most ppl keeping their upgrades under $200 want their cards to last as long as possible, and SLI and SM3.0 don't seem to add much beyond "plain" SM2.0, IMO.

As for articles like these swaying you to pimp nV, that's a pretty weak excuse. This is nowhere near as bad as nV's 3DM03 cheating, yet that didn't exactly sway you to ATi for long.

Nice high-school insults, BTW. Care to take a stab at Newell while you're at it?

 

[SneakyStuff]

Originally posted by: VIAN
SLI sucks big floppy donkey D*ck.

OK, theoretical contest time, your one card, vs. my two, who will win? And don't soil the southpark movie by quoting it on a computer forums...

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Pete
SLI is cool in theory, but I don't see what's wrong with Orton's quote. Everyone here keeps saying they'll just buy two nV cards and SLI them, but you won't do that. You'll buy two SLI cards, then a MB with dual PEG slots, then a beefier PSU to support both cards. This isn't as simple as Voodoo 2's plug and play.

It's definitely a nice option for those who can afford it, but is its cost spread out to everyone who buys an nV card? I doubt SLI will become mainstream anytime soon. It seems like a lot of effort for something most people won't use. nV is certainly right to try to attract a steady base of big spenders who're willing to shell out big bucks for SLI systems, but this doesn't seem very cost-effective for the vast majority of people, at least not until huge PSUs and dual-PEG MBs become standard fare.

. . .

Think MAINstream for a MUCH BIGGER MARKET and people in this market DONT CARE ABOUT MONEY spent ON HW -

with sli, nVidia now has a LOCK on the workstation market. . . . the graphics people will pay big bucks to have faster

and don't forget, nForce4 MBs will have TWO PCI-E slots for a "cheap" sli solution.

 

[ronnn]

Thanks Rollo, I now know why you flog Nvidia - its the interviews!! I think dual sli may be a very nice solution - but right now more than I would want to spend (ok, I am cheap). Still I can see others spending the cash to have the fastest, but keeping it quiet and cool may be a challenge. The idea of getting a 6600gt one year and and upgrading with another the next year doesn't appeal at all to me. Why use 2 6600gt, when one 6800 ultra or x800pe will do the same thing? And by the time next year rolls around, I will be getting close to a total system upgrade and likely the 6600gt will be old news. So for the top line, sli is a great thing, but for the mid range it is just a gimmick - but gimmicks often sell.

 

[nemesismk2]

Originally posted by: VIAN
SLI sucks big floppy donkey D*ck.

I guess you can't afford it, the people who can will consider SLI and the people who can't will moan like Vian!

 

[Corporate Thug]

Originally posted by: Insomniak

Originally posted by: shady06

i agree with this...

it does apply to a small minority. not sure about the power consumption but i'm willing to bet it draws quite a bit

Maybe you guys missed me earlier.

GAMING PCs ARE A SMALL MINORITY! ALL OF US! PUT TOGETHER! ARE A SMALL MINORITY!

It applies to us. We don't mean sh*t for revenue. Ever wonder how Intel is the market leader in graphics chips even though they don't ship a single high end part?

Jesus, take the blinders off please. Of COURSE it only applies to a small minority. That's all it possibly could apply to!

then SLI would apply to a small minority among the small minority

 

[BFG10K]

I must admit ATi do at least have a partial point; SLI configurations are usually too costly and prohibitive for most people and I dislike multi-chip and multi-card solutions in general.

As a side note, Forceware 65.62 has SLI options in the control panel.

 

[BenSkywalker]

SLI is cool in theory, but I don't see what's wrong with Orton's quote. Everyone here keeps saying they'll just buy two nV cards and SLI them, but you won't do that. You'll buy two SLI cards, then a MB with dual PEG slots, then a beefier PSU to support both cards. This isn't as simple as Voodoo 2's plug and play.

But it is much simpler then getting ATi's AFR parts working under any currently supported OS

The SLI idea from nV is a fairly solid move for them from numerous angles. They can push their "nForce4" mobos along with its dual PEG slot configuration to buyers along with two of their video cards, not to mention it makes them a complete lock on top of benchmark charts for some time to come.

As far as needing a beefier PowerSupply, mine can handle dual 6600GTs without any issue at all, likely could handle dual 6800GTs(420W TT). So when it's time for me to upgrade next, it isn't like I have to worry about buying a new mobo as I need one anyway, I'll just spend the extra $20 to get a "SLI" capable board be it for nV or whoever else.

Of course ATi PRmeisters will try to spin you their way, but those quotes are all perfectly reasonable. You're just interpreting them from the lofty viewpoint of someone who can spend upwards of $1K/yr on video cards. Most ppl keeping their upgrades under $200 want their cards to last as long as possible, and SLI and SM3.0 don't seem to add much beyond "plain" SM2.0, IMO.

Wavey is rubbing off on you a bit much Pete, you are taking on the ATi apologist roll here. If I could SLI my R9800Pro right now I would, another $200 to ~double up on performance would be an absolute no brainer. Most of the upgrades the enthusiast market take part in tend to be along the lines of trying to double performance, and for vid cards that means shelling out ~$500 lately. Now that figure can be ~$200 for a lot of people if they build their next rig with it in mind ignoring completely the uber rigs that some will build for considerably more.

If ATi were doing this it would also be a good thing. I personally would rather have a single chip solution always, but unlike the last several solutions we have seen this isn't SLI to try and compete, this is SLI to utterly dominate in terms of performance.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Pete
SLI is cool in theory, but I don't see what's wrong with Orton's quote. Everyone here keeps saying they'll just buy two nV cards and SLI them, but you won't do that. You'll buy two SLI cards, then a MB with dual PEG slots, then a beefier PSU to support both cards. This isn't as simple as Voodoo 2's plug and play.

It's definitely a nice option for those who can afford it, but is its cost spread out to everyone who buys an nV card? I doubt SLI will become mainstream anytime soon. It seems like a lot of effort for something most people won't use. nV is certainly right to try to attract a steady base of big spenders who're willing to shell out big bucks for SLI systems, but this doesn't seem very cost-effective for the vast majority of people, at least not until huge PSUs and dual-PEG MBs become standard fare.

Rollo, there was nothing wrong with all the statements you quoted. Of course ATi PRmeisters will try to spin you their way, but those quotes are all perfectly reasonable. You're just interpreting them from the lofty viewpoint of someone who can spend upwards of $1K/yr on video cards. Most ppl keeping their upgrades under $200 want their cards to last as long as possible, and SLI and SM3.0 don't seem to add much beyond "plain" SM2.0, IMO.

As for articles like these swaying you to pimp nV, that's a pretty weak excuse. This is nowhere near as bad as nV's 3DM03 cheating, yet that didn't exactly sway you to ATi for long.

Nice high-school insults, BTW. Care to take a stab at Newell while you're at it?

1. It's not as simple, but if I'm upgrading motherboards anyway, a nForce4 board and a PCIE 6800GT is a nice way to go this year, and next year I can add one for less than the cost of two $400 cards I bet.
2. How is it a "lot of effort"? And why wouldn't someone with a 450> psu want to try for two 6800NUs? That's 24 pipes for under $600? Beats paying $500+ for 16?
3. There is something wrong. You can't use the lack of ps2 games as the main fault of 5900s and then in the next sentence say the lack of SM3 games is the main reason you don't need SM3. I've got $20 that says there are more SM3 games out by June 2005 than there were PS2 games out by June 2004?
4. As for my "weak excuse", I said it's an example of why I pimp nVidia these days?
Example:noun:illustration, instance, representative -- (an item of information that is representative of a type;
If you can't buy damage control BS like this interview, and the "real" trilinear nonsense, as contributing factors in my favoring nVidia of late I guess that's your perogative.
5. HS insult fixed, we'll leave Gabe out of it.

 

[3chordcharlie]

I doubt many will leap to buy two top-end cards. But I agree with the posters who would buy one now, and one later.

I suspect Nvidia is capable of writing drivers to let two cards behave as one, invisible to the application (at least I hope so).

If it's anything like the V2, it will be at least another generation before anything approaches the performance of two 6800NU in SLI, let alone two of the top-end cards!