ATI vs NV for HD HTPC

[imported_synchro]

It used to be ATI had the market covered in this arena - but is that still true?
Is the image quality and HD settings more of a video card and driver issue, or does it fall back to the quality of your TV tuner and HD Tv?

It seems to me there would be a best case card for each scenario - but overall, does the mfg of your video card really matter these days?

(lets not compare GF2MX cards with X800's here... )

 

[crazydingo]

I'd suggest a low end ATI/Nvidia card with a Hauppage HDTV card.

 

[rbV5]

With a OTA hardware card like MyHD, its almost all dependant on the HDTV card, the graphics card itself is bypassed unless you watch on your PC.

Every other solution relies on your video card for at least some of the functionality, and in a lot of cases, it depends heavily on your graphics card. Whats best is totally dependant on your setup, and ATI and Nvidia aren't the only players either.

Both ATI and Nvidia cards can be used as the platform for an awesome HD HTPC, and neither makes the perfect card yet.

 

[xtknight]

It depends on a few things. Does your tuner internally process the video ("hardware")?

Right now, NVIDIA's PureVideo MPEG-2 decode is superior to ATI's (according to Anandtech article). However ATI's new card which will be released in a couple of days may have a surprise in that manner (AVIVO). Definitely wait until that comes out, then I'd recommend a low-end next-gen RV515 (or whatever) card.

(NEVER MIND WHAT WAS PREVIOUSLY POSTED HERE): it turns out you CAN accelerate MPEG-2 TS playback with a "hardware" tuner

With the new low-profile HDMI-supported (reference design)/video-decoding-acceleration-across-the-board cards coming from ATI, they look VERY appealing for an HTPC.

 

[tji]

> Even the hardware-based tuner can't accelerate file playback as far as I know

That's the whole point of a hardware receiver card. Obviously, all receiver cards are "hardware" the hardware/software distinction refers to the decoder portion. Software receivers rely on the host to do decode+playback. Hardware solutions decode and display themselves.

A good example of an hardware card is the MIT MyHD MDP-130. It has a digital TV receiver onboard, and an HD capable MPEG decoder. So, it displays directly from the card, and the host cpu requirements are extremely low even for high resolution HD playback.

The problem with hardware playback cards is that they generally don't integrate into PVR software apps well. They expect to be the whole ballgame. The MyHD MDP-130's software does a pretty good job of playback, with a decent interface and guide. But, it's not as good as a full-blown PVR package.


The really interesting playback solutions coming out now are those that do more decoding/processing in hardware. The old Radeons began offering MPEG2 acceleration almost 10 years ago. That certainly helps with the CPU overhead, but HD playback still taxes the system. Newer display devices, like the S3 Unichrome Pro offer full HD MPEG2 decoding in hardware -- similar to the MyHD card. The Nvidia 6150 chipset talks about similar MPEG2 decoding capabilities, but I haven?t seen any reviews about these capabilities in action. These provide the potential for tight integration into software PVR packages, while maintaining very low CPU requirements.

The ideal device would offer full HD decoding capability, for MPEG2, MPEG4, WMV9, and H.264 in hardware. Transcoding between the different formats would also be a huge bonus.

 

[rbV5]

As you can see for hardware-based, it will not matter at all during capture if the video card can decode MPEG-2 or not. However, for file playback, at least for now, the video card (with a couple exceptions) is the only hardware that can help MPEG-2 decoding. Even the hardware-based tuner can't accelerate file playback as far as I know, but it's probably possible on some next-gen capture cards if the card strives to be a complete multimedia suite.

Did you see what i posted? I own both hardware and software HDTV cards, I think I know what I'm talking about.

MyHD uses the hardware Zoran decoder chip and uses virtually no CPU cycles, and bypasses the video card completely unless you are watching it on your PC.

 

[tji]

Originally posted by: crazydingo
I'd suggest a low end ATI/Nvidia card with a Hauppage HDTV card.

I would suggest any card but the Hauppage HDTV card. It always had poor drivers, and was effectively abandoned about four years ago.

If you want a good hardware decoder card, get the MyHD MDP-130.

If you want a "software" card, for integration with XP MCE or MythTV on Linux, go with the FusionHDTV 3 or FusionHDTV 5.

All of these card options support Over The Air (OTA) reception or QAM / Cable.

As for the video card, for the MyHD card it doesn't matter, because the HD receiver card does the HD display (with a VGA loop-through cable to switch between VGA & HDTV output). For the Fusion cards, an ATI Radeon or NVidia FX card all support MPEG2 acceleration.

 

[xtknight]

Keep in mind I'm talking about recorded/archived MPEG-2 files that you are playing back like with Windows Media Player, not "TV" that you view in real-time on software like ATI MMC. Are we talking about the same thing? I am aware the tuner decodes for WDM capture/display, but I did not know it accelerated MPEG-2 file playback like a video card. Learn something new everyday I guess.

rbV5-didn't know what you meant by the pronoun "it" in the post. I was under the impression only the WDM capture decoding and displaying live TV was the tuner-accelerated part?

 

[Wreckage]

I use a 6600GT in my HTPC conneceted to my HDTV. It looks great and the recent 7x.xx series drivers allow for a lot of fine tuning for the TV output that you used to have to do with a 3rd party program.

 

[rbV5]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Keep in mind I'm talking about recorded/archived MPEG-2 files that you are playing back like with Windows Media Player, not "TV" that you view in real-time on software like ATI MMC. Are we talking about the same thing? I am aware the tuner decodes for WDM capture/display, but I did not know it accelerated MPEG-2 file playback like a video card. Learn something new everyday I guess.

rbV5-didn't know what you meant by the pronoun "it" in the post. I was under the impression only the WDM capture decoding and displaying live TV was the tuner-accelerated part?

MyHD is a scaler and plays back the live TV as well as recorded transport streams and DVD's.

Its very difficult to be concise and also correct about HTPC's HD and display technologies. The basic line is that for Hardware HDTV PC tuner cards, that it depends greatly on the tuner, less so on the rig that it is installed in. With a software solution, much more on the platform its installed in than the tuner card itself.

The discussion beyond that takes up entire forums.

 

[xtknight]

Alright I understand now-the card can also play back transport streams and that's implemented via DXVA or whatever. I didn't think the "industry" was to that point yet.

 

[rbV5]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Alright I understand now-the card can also play back transport streams and that's implemented via DXVA or whatever. I didn't think the "industry" was to that point yet.

No, its not DXVA at all:

DXVA uses the GPU's (graphic card) 3D shader pipeline to accelerate video and so requires a graphics card that supports DX pixel shaders, driver support that enables the shaders to create video playback surfaces, and software support from the player itself.

MyHD however, uses a hardware MPEG decoder onboard to handle the decoding duties. The Zoran TL880 DTVPC decoder chip used on MDP100/120/130 and most other hardware HDTV cards (IIRC) does all the work, and supports RGB/YPbPr (DVI w/daughter card) output directly without ever having used the graphic subsystem of the host PC at all.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: rbV5
No, its not DXVA at all:

DXVA uses the GPU's (graphic card) 3D shader pipeline to accelerate video and so requires a graphics card that supports DX pixel shaders, driver support that enables the shaders to create video playback surfaces, and software support from the player itself.
MyHD however, uses a hardware MPEG decoder onboard to handle the decoding duties. The Zoran TL880 DTVPC decoder chip used on MDP100/120/130 and most other hardware HDTV cards (IIRC) does all the work, and supports RGB/YPbPr (DVI w/daughter card) output directly without ever having used the graphic subsystem of the host PC at all.

Sorry for the misunderstanding but what does that decoder chip (onboard the HDTV tuner) have to do with playing a recorded MPEG-2 TS file off of your hard disk/otherwise ("file playback")?

In my mind there are two things this chip could accelerate for a PC:
-live WDM capture (just for watching with ATI MMC for example)
-playing back an MPEG-2 file

Which of these does it accelerate (in the current state of drivers and everything)? In other words, these decoding duties include what? Basically I know the MPEG-2 could techinically be sent to the card for decoding and then come back in decoded form from its decoding chip, but I'm wondering if that's actually in a working state today. I'm not denying anyone's claims, I just have no idea what's happening so you'll have to bear with me on this.

I know the chip can decode MPEG-2 TS, but I don't know if there's any connection between that Zoran chip and a media player playing back a recorded MPEG-2 TS file.

Here's one more way to put it:
This chip decodes only MPEG-2 that comes in from the tuner itself, or can it also decode files that you recorded?

Thanks for taking the time to explain.

 

[KoolAidKid]

I would recommend getting a low-end Nvidia card with purevideo support (6200or better) and use Nvidia's Decoder in conjunction with it.

 

[rbV5]

Sorry for the misunderstanding but what does that decoder chip (onboard the HDTV tuner) have to do with playing a recorded MPEG-2 TS file off of your hard disk/otherwise ("file playback")?

Different types of MPEG2 input is possible with MyHD mdp100/120:

1. ATSC broadcast from the antenna
2. Captured Transport stream file playback from the hardrive
3. D-VHS VCR input via firewire.
4. DVD playback from DVD Rom drive.

Note: NTSC analog captures do require media player playback and are captured in an AVI container.

You simply pick the input in the software and send it to your HD display, just like you were watching Live HD TV... again the graphic subsystem of the host PC is not even used at all.

In my mind there are two things this chip could accelerate for a PC:
-live WDM capture (just for watching with ATI MMC for example)
-playing back an MPEG-2 file

MMC does not support hardware encoders. You are missunderstanding the tech...its not for "accelerating for the PC", its for outputting to a display. In other words, think of it as a STB than can:
*Transfer HD transport streams to your hardrive.
*Decode, Scale + scan convert and display transport Streams either from the tuner, storage on your hardrive or D-VHS recorder.
*Decode, Scale + scan convert and display DVD from a DVD Rom drive.

In every case, the decoder is dong the work, and the graphics subsystem of the PC is not used at all.

It also can display the HD using an overlay window on your PC, this of course rely's on your PC graphics subsystem rather than the decoder card, but is a rarely used mode and only supports 480p/60(IIRC)

If you have a monitor with dual inputs, you can use one connector for your PC graphics card, and the other for the MyHD HDTV card, and switch between your desktop and HDTV, which is sweet...again, it does not use the PC Graphic Subsytem and CPU cycles used are next to nothing at all.

It is absolutely in a working state, and has been for years like this. Its the reason why all the first generations of HDTV cards were hardware based...all used the Zoran Chip IIRC(MyHD being the best by far IMO). HTPC's didn't have DX9 hardware cards and 3 GHz processors.

It is not without issues however, and I prefer the MCE 2005 + HDTV Wonder solution currently. Mainly because of the much better EPG, much more stable, and MUCH more user friendly aspect.

PQ is pretty much a push between them, as is the HD PQ between the DX9 level cards from ATI and Nvidia from my experience and testing over the past 3 years I've had HDTV cards installed in my rigs.

 

[xtknight]

Thanks, that answered 99% of my questions.

Yes I (now) fully understand the part about it being sent to your monitor and not your PC. I do that all the time with my Samsung SIR-T451 ATSC OTA tuner to my LCD's second VGA input and I love it.

The only thing I'm wondering now is how the stored MPEG-2 TS stream gets to that card. There is some DirectShow filter to do that or do you have to use special software? You are saying even that can only be outputted to a display (monitor via DVI, component, et al.), right?

 

[imported_Rampage]

Originally posted by: KoolAidKid
I would recommend getting a low-end Nvidia card with purevideo support (6200or better) and use Nvidia's Decoder in conjunction with it.

 

[rbV5]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Thanks, that answered 99% of my questions.

Yes I (now) fully understand the part about it being sent to your monitor and not your PC. I do that all the time with my Samsung SIR-T451 ATSC OTA tuner to my LCD's second VGA input and I love it.

The only thing I'm wondering now is how the stored MPEG-2 TS stream gets to that card. There is some DirectShow filter to do that or do you have to use special software? You are saying even that can only be outputted to a display (monitor via DVI, component, et al.), right?

You must use the software, and it passes the stored transport stream via the PCI bus (just like it's captured<transfered>, but in reverse) since its still the compressed transport stream it only requires the same bandidth going out as going in, then its decoded/processed/ and output just the same as the live stream...in fact its a bit-perfect copy.

It can also display via the overlay window on your desktop at 480p/60.