ATi vs nVidia drivers

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: BFG10K
Why couldn?t they get WHQL? At that time XP was the current OS and even a Radeon 7000 had WHQL drivers and doesn't even have shaders. Again I?ll ask what the DX level of hardware has to do with WHQL?

Also if SM 3.0 was a requirement for WHQL like you imply, was nVidia also "running out of time" for the GF5 FX series?

I think this is what it was:
http://www.theinquirer.net/en/...drivers-have-a-problem

I have no idea how it was worked around though.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: nRollo

Originally posted by: DerekWilson
I've been thinking about doing a blog post on the issue of drivers and release schedules -- would that interest you guys?

I think a lot of people miss a few things --

There are only so much time and resource availability that any company has to do QA on drivers. No one can do everything, and neither NVIDIA nor AMD do.

I think they both have issues and neither one is really overall "better" than the other (though I do think AMD has the appearance of being better due to their schedule).

...

Here's the thing --

In order to get the gamer what he or she wants, a company would need to test all of their hardware to make sure things simply work and regression test all games from the past couple years with that hardware. This is never going to happen.

Both AMD and NVIDIA cut major corners.

AMD has multiple driver trunks, and a rotating schedule of only about 2 dozen titles for regression testing that do not repeat within something like 6 months to a year. If one driver breaks something, it will be at least two months until it gets "fixed" for real (as the next month might not exhibit the same problem, but it also won't necessarily be based on the same code). If one game is dropped from the regression testing schedule, it could break in one driver and not be caught for a very long time (or until reviewers start to complain about it).

We run into the problem a lot, especially with crossfire scaling, of things that used to work not working and then when we point it out, all of a sudden we've got a beta driver with a fix. It's just because AMD dropped that title from their regression testing. Over time they hit a lot of titles, but this is an optimization that does cause issues.

Because you can't have monthly WHQL drivers with the latest features on the latest hardware all regression tested on everything everyone could want to play. There isn't enough time there to do all the necessary QA. All the driver has to do is pass Microsoft's WHQL testing ... which is easier than actually working in all relevant games.

NVIDIA does something else --

They don't always test all their hardware every cycle. We'll see beta drivers tested completely first on high end hardware or newly released hardware. Older stuff is left out of testing, so we have divergent driver versions necessary for different classes of hardware. Since NVIDIA uses a unified model (at the moment), all drivers should work on all hardware, but if it hasn't been released to support a specific card then that means it hasn't been QA'd on that card.

NVIDIA regression tests with many more titles per WHQL release, but at the same time, there is much more time between WHQL releases. This gives them a longer period to look at more things, but at the same time stuff can stay broken for longer.

If all this stuff is really interesting, I could take some time and talk to AMD and NVIDIA again (we've had this discussion with them before) and I could do a write up about it explaining the pros and cons of both approaches.

[b}Frankly, from my perspective, monthly WHQL is just a marketing tool ... it makes people feel better. [/b]But NVIDIA's approach isn't necessarily better -- it's just different.

Apoppin:

Derek straight out says the monthly drivers are a marketing tool that only give the appearance of better service.

I don't think NVIDIA's end goal is the "apearance" of anything- their goal is customer satisfaction with their drivers. The methods were developed through years of cost/benefit analysis, and your suggestion that they should change their business model based on some guys "thinking it would be better" isn't going to flip policy at a big corporation.

They got to be big by doing things right and making mostly good business decisions, not by knee jerk reactions to what some guys on an internet forum post. Don't you think they've considered ATi's method of doing business, and picked another path?

Or do you think they "just needed the idea" from us?

NVIDIA either leads or splits the market based on the strength of their product line- not the frequency of driver releases.

As noted before, I'd think Derek's post would have basically put this issue to bed across the internet.

Clearly you are wrong about Derek's comment putting anything to rest; if anything he took "my side"
<<(though I do think AMD has the appearance of being better due to their schedule)>>

And i think you are dead wrong about perception. Nvidia has an "image" to maintain; far more than just providing basic satisfaction when they can provide stellar service to their customers. imo they are missing a golden opportunity to do more for us - at no cost to them!

Yes, i DO think they should listen to us. Sometimes we know better than their marketing; and i think you are also out of touch as you cannot comprehend the bad "feelings" that are directed toward you personally and also your company. Nvidia is perceived as arrogant. That is a grass-roots perception whether you or they like it or not. And they are also getting a negative reaction from the tech reviewers and the tech site posters. Are they blind to it also? i think not; somehow Jensen is out of touch as to the reason - in the last entire year with Nvidia's tech fans.

Nvidia would do well to listen to us. Who cares if you do? You are just here for the debate and the fun of it as the ultimate Nvidia fan and will defend them to the death; even when they are wrong.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Clearly you are wrong about Derek's comment putting anything to rest; if anything he took "my side"

And i think you are wrong about perception. Nvidia has an "image" to maintain.

Yes, i DO think they should listen to us. Sometimes we know better than their marketing; and i think you are also out of touch as you cannot comprehend the bad "feelings" that are directed toward your company

Nvidia would do well to listen to us. Who cares if you do? You are just here for the debate and the fun of it as the ultimate Nvidia fan.

Are you familiar with the concept of the "armchair quarterback" Apoppin?

As the leaders in the industry, I trust that ATi and NVIDIA have some competence in selecting their business model, and greater experience than I.

Unless you've been in the position they are in, and have found your suggestion works best, it's easy to say "They should do this".

Prior to the 48 series, NVIDIA had over 70% of the DX10 enthusiast market. Apparently the lack of monthly drivers didn't stop people from buying their cards.

Food for thought.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: apoppin
Clearly you are wrong about Derek's comment putting anything to rest; if anything he took "my side"
<<(though I do think AMD has the appearance of being better due to their schedule)>>

OK Derek said they have the "appearance" of being better, which is not the same thing as being better.

A replica Ferrari with a VW engine has the appearance of being a Ferrari, but isn't.

You realize he didn't say Ati's method was preferable, as he stated later in the post the monthly releases were just a marketing tool.

I think you're arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: nRollo

Originally posted by: apoppin

Clearly you are wrong about Derek's comment putting anything to rest; if anything he took "my side"

And i think you are wrong about perception. Nvidia has an "image" to maintain.

Yes, i DO think they should listen to us. Sometimes we know better than their marketing; and i think you are also out of touch as you cannot comprehend the bad "feelings" that are directed toward your company

Nvidia would do well to listen to us. Who cares if you do? You are just here for the debate and the fun of it as the ultimate Nvidia fan.

Are you familiar with the concept of the "armchair quarterback" Apoppin?

As the leaders in the industry, I trust that ATi and NVIDIA have some competence in selecting their business model, and greater experience than I.

Unless you've been in the position they are in, and have found your suggestion works best, it's easy to say "They should do this".

Prior to the 48 series, NVIDIA had over 70% of the DX10 enthusiast market. Apparently the lack of monthly drivers didn't stop people from buying their cards.

Food for thought.

food for thought but not from you and it is not directed toward the right person
- some of us can really see the industry clearly and point out its flaws to anyone with sense to listen. Derek and Anand also do this as "armchair QBs" and sometimes their experience and wisdom is accepted; sometimes not.


Yes i am aware of your strawman arguments.

I am aware of the competence that Nvidia has displayed with last 2 product miss-launches in a row, a failed chipset in notebooks and they have taken a back seat to AMD this generation in performance/watt.

Perhaps in their infinite wisdom, they are as out of touch with reality .. as their most diehard fans

real food for thought


even you say it:

Prior to the 48 series, NVIDIA had over 70% of the DX10 enthusiast market.

- So now they are slipping .. what happened?
- i thought they knew everything?
:roll:

I think you're arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.

You always say this when i shoot your argument to hell
- so predictable

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: nRollo

Originally posted by: apoppin

Clearly you are wrong about Derek's comment putting anything to rest; if anything he took "my side"

And i think you are wrong about perception. Nvidia has an "image" to maintain.

Yes, i DO think they should listen to us. Sometimes we know better than their marketing; and i think you are also out of touch as you cannot comprehend the bad "feelings" that are directed toward your company

Nvidia would do well to listen to us. Who cares if you do? You are just here for the debate and the fun of it as the ultimate Nvidia fan.

Are you familiar with the concept of the "armchair quarterback" Apoppin?

As the leaders in the industry, I trust that ATi and NVIDIA have some competence in selecting their business model, and greater experience than I.

Unless you've been in the position they are in, and have found your suggestion works best, it's easy to say "They should do this".

Prior to the 48 series, NVIDIA had over 70% of the DX10 enthusiast market. Apparently the lack of monthly drivers didn't stop people from buying their cards.

Food for thought.

food for thought but not from you and it is not directed toward the right person
- some of us can really see the industry clearly and point out its flaws to anyone with sense to listen. Derek and Anand also do this as "armchair QBs" and sometimes their experience and wisdom is accepted; sometimes not.


Yes i am aware of your strawman arguments.

I am aware of the competence that Nvidia has displayed with last 2 product miss-launches in a row, a failed chipset in notebooks and they have taken a back seat to AMD this generation in performance/watt.

Perhaps in their infinite wisdom, they are as out of touch with reality .. as their most diehard fans

real food for thought


even you say it:

Prior to the 48 series, NVIDIA had over 70% of the DX10 enthusiast market.

- So now they are slipping .. what happened?
- i thought they knew everything?
:roll:

I think you're arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.

You always say this when i shoot your argument to hell
- so predictable

You haven't really "shot my argument to hell" Apoppin'.

You've made assertions, but you've done so without any evidence or experience with the industry in question. All comes back to you have given your opinions on how things should be done, but you've done so without benefit of knowledge of all aspects of the situation.

NVIDIA and ATi have achieved huge levels of success in their industry, I think people like you or me saying off the cuff "You should adopt your competitors business model" is a bit pointless. When it's their dime, they get to call the shots.

Now, if you have experience in software QA for a worldwide industry leader, and you've evaluated and tried both ATi and NVIDIA's methods, do tell why you found ATi's method worked better for your firm. I'd be happy to forward that to NVIDIA, idle speculation I can't.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: nRollo

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: nRollo

Originally posted by: apoppin

Clearly you are wrong about Derek's comment putting anything to rest; if anything he took "my side"

And i think you are wrong about perception. Nvidia has an "image" to maintain.

Yes, i DO think they should listen to us. Sometimes we know better than their marketing; and i think you are also out of touch as you cannot comprehend the bad "feelings" that are directed toward your company

Nvidia would do well to listen to us. Who cares if you do? You are just here for the debate and the fun of it as the ultimate Nvidia fan.

Are you familiar with the concept of the "armchair quarterback" Apoppin?

As the leaders in the industry, I trust that ATi and NVIDIA have some competence in selecting their business model, and greater experience than I.

Unless you've been in the position they are in, and have found your suggestion works best, it's easy to say "They should do this".

Prior to the 48 series, NVIDIA had over 70% of the DX10 enthusiast market. Apparently the lack of monthly drivers didn't stop people from buying their cards.

Food for thought.

food for thought but not from you and it is not directed toward the right person
- some of us can really see the industry clearly and point out its flaws to anyone with sense to listen. Derek and Anand also do this as "armchair QBs" and sometimes their experience and wisdom is accepted; sometimes not.


Yes i am aware of your strawman arguments.

I am aware of the competence that Nvidia has displayed with last 2 product miss-launches in a row, a failed chipset in notebooks and they have taken a back seat to AMD this generation in performance/watt.

Perhaps in their infinite wisdom, they are as out of touch with reality .. as their most diehard fans

real food for thought


even you say it:

Prior to the 48 series, NVIDIA had over 70% of the DX10 enthusiast market.

- So now they are slipping .. what happened?
- i thought they knew everything?
:roll:

I think you're arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.

You always say this when i shoot your argument to hell
- so predictable

You haven't really "shot my argument to hell" Apoppin'.

You've made assertions, but you've done so without any evidence or experience with the industry in question. All comes back to you have given your opinions on how things should be done, but you've done so without benefit of knowledge of all aspects of the situation.

NVIDIA and ATi have achieved huge levels of success in their industry, I think people like you or me saying off the cuff "You should adopt your competitors business model" is a bit pointless. When it's their dime, they get to call the shots.

Now, if you have experience in software QA for a worldwide industry leader, and you've evaluated and tried both ATi and NVIDIA's methods, do tell why you found ATi's method worked better for your firm. I'd be happy to forward that to NVIDIA, idle speculation I can't.

Comment deleted by me then.

no further comments from me on this subject
aloha

This isn't P&N, apoppin, let's not go down that road

-ViRGE

 

[ArchAngel777]

The focus group members primarly act as cheerleaders. We can't expect it to be any different as they are essentially on nVidia's payroll via 'gifts' and I am sure someone keeps a tight leash on them, otherwise the gifts and title dissapear. After all, it wouldn't be profitable to keep a truly non biased and open minded person in the group, it could hurt sales.

I think the main issue here is keeping the customer informed. If anyone does work with customers, they will know that keeping the customer in the dark is far worse than keeping them updated even if it is just to tell them the problem is still be worked on, or hasn't be solved or addressed yet. The quickest way to an irate customer is to leave him in the dark by stopping regular contact.

ATi is commited to giving us a monthly driver. If we have an issue, we can expect on a certain day that our issue *might* be fixed. If not, we move on until the date of the next release. It keeps people informed.

nVidia just releases the driver when they feel it is *ready*. By the way, that isn't really a bad thing and can be a good thing. However, it is more frustrating to the user to not know when a potential fix is coming down the pike.

All in all I have had relatively few problems with nVidia and ATi drivers. But then again, if I see a missing texture or something it doesn't really bother me that much to get all bent out of shape. Sure, it might be a bug, but I guess letting the small ones go for the greater good (gaming) is better.

If I had to pick though, I'd take ATi's approach as it keeps me informed as a user...

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
The focus group members primarly act as cheerleaders. We can't expect it to be any different as they are essentially on nVidia's payroll via 'gifts' and I am sure someone keeps a tight leash on them, otherwise the gifts and title dissapear. After all, it wouldn't be profitable to keep a truly non biased and open minded person in the group, it could hurt sales.

I think the main issue here is keeping the customer informed. If anyone does work with customers, they will know that keeping the customer in the dark is far worse than keeping them updated even if it is just to tell them the problem is still be worked on, or hasn't be solved or addressed yet. The quickest way to an irate customer is to leave him in the dark by stopping regular contact.

ATi is commited to giving us a monthly driver. If we have an issue, we can expect on a certain day that our issue *might* be fixed. If not, we move on until the date of the next release. It keeps people informed.

nVidia just releases the driver when they feel it is *ready*. By the way, that isn't really a bad thing and can be a good thing. However, it is more frustrating to the user to not know when a potential fix is coming down the pike.

All in all I have had relatively few problems with nVidia and ATi drivers. But then again, if I see a missing texture or something it doesn't really bother me that much to get all bent out of shape. Sure, it might be a bug, but I guess letting the small ones go for the greater good (gaming) is better.

If I had to pick though, I'd take ATi's approach as it keeps me informed as a user...

Monthly official updates by AMD/ATi is basically very good support,I know most people prefer to have their way of doing things then Nvidia's beta drivers,lets face it big company like Nvidia has no excuse of not being able to release regular official drivers,plain lazyiness in my books.AMD/ATi users know within a week or so when the next official drivers are due,I can't say the same thing about Nvidia,got a problem with Nvidia drivers well try a beta and hope it fixes the issue.

Horses for courses but I know which one I prefer.

 

[BFG10K]

Originally posted by: Azn

No one said Nvidia can't afford it.

So what is the issue then? If ATi can do it why can't nVidia?

As a business practice it is excessive.

Excessive for whom? Who decides what is excessive? You?

Your resources aren't being used to pay for ATi's drivers support, theirs are. They?ve decided it?s worth the price to get good driver support and I completely agree with them, and so do many others.

Since the program started in 2002 I?ve consistently experienced more robust drivers from ATi than I have from nVidia. That?s not ?excessive?, that?s great driver support.

Fixes faster? I don't know where you get this idea that somehow if you release more WHQL drivers you get faster fixes.

I get the idea because official drivers come once a month and that means if you have a problem in one month it can be fixed the next. I?ve seen this as recently as moving to 8.9 from 8.8.

With nVidia it?s 3-4 months (up to 6) between official drivers, unless you want to take your chances with unsupported betas which have no schedule either.

So ATI release more WHQL drivers. So what?

So what? So their driver support is better, that?s what.

It doesn't mean the drivers are less buggy than Nvidia's.

Actually it does and I've pointed out repeated examples of why that?s the case. I?ve never had driver issues on ATi with such serious repercussions and magnitude that some of the nVidia drivers had. The alt-tab issue for example lasted about four years and affected my 6800 Ultra, my 7800 GT and my 8800 GTS.

Show me some evidence than I believe it. Other wise I won't. I know R300 was first when CCC was released but it was much later ATI started creating WHQL drivers every month.

Evidence? Sure, how about that fact my 9700 Pro shipped with Catalyst 2.2 on the CD and a month later Catalyst 2.3 arrived, both WHQL? How about the fact that the Catalyst naming designation signifies the year first?

If you still don?t believe me: http://www.oldapps.com/old_version_ati.php

That one goes back to Catalyst 2.1 which was the first official Catalyst driver released in 2002. Since then we?ve had monthly WHQL drivers; in fact some years had 13 releases, like one December when a large AVIVO update arrived; I think it was Catalyst 7.13 because it was the thirteenth driver released in 2007.

LOL you are bad as keys. Who wants to use Nvidia chipset when they can go intel or whoever was dumb enough to buy FX series deserves no drivers.

Good driver support doesn?t depend on whether you classify someone as ?dumb?.

 

[BFG10K]

Originally posted by: nRollo

Well, you would have thought that Derek's informational post would have ended this topic forever, as each company's methods of driver testing have their pro/cons.

Why would it end it if many don't agree with his opinion?

People want everything to just work like consoles, but that is not the way of computer gaming and never has been. People would have to be willing to pay more for that kind of QA when you consider the 100s of games out there and all the cards to test them on.

No, what we want is nVidia to have the same commitment as ATi when it comes to driver support. They don't and they've been riding on superior hardware in the past, but that's starting to change.

Derek straight out says the monthly drivers are a marketing tool that only give the appearance of better service.

When my gaming library works better on ATi than nVidia that?s more than marketing and appearance. When I get fixes in one month that?s more than marketing and appearance.

As noted before, I'd think Derek's post would have basically put this issue to bed across the internet.

nVidia would simply love that, wouldn't they?

So ATi testing those 24 games every month gives you the more robust drivers than NVIDIA testing many more games every three?

24? More like 90+ and if you count the ones I no longer have installed that I've tried in the past it?s close to 200.

Interesting that AT's video editor doesn't agree with you and flat out says neither approach is better than the other.

Again that's his opinion, one I don?t share due to the contrary evidence I have available to me.

OK Derek said they have the "appearance" of being better, which is not the same thing as being better.

Project IGI: ATi 4850 | nVidia DX10 hardware

Red Faction: ATi 4850 | nVidia DX10 hardware

On ATi the games are playable; on nVidia they are not; that?s more than ?appearance?.

Oh that's right, they're ancient games so nVidia doesn't support them. That's how the party-line goes at nVidia, doesn't it? Well guess what? ATi support them.

 

[BFG10K]

Originally posted by: thilan29

I think this is what it was:
http://www.theinquirer.net/en/...drivers-have-a-problem

I have no idea how it was worked around though.

Oh LOL, is that what Keys was referring to? I?ll tell what the ?work-around? was: include a checkbox in CCC to disable geometry instancing on SM 2.0b parts.

So you see, ATi didn?t ?bribe? Microsoft to change the tests.

One also wonders why the GeForce 5 FX series didn?t have the same ?problem? given they too exceeded the SM 2.0 spec. Maybe nVidia bribed Microsoft to change the tests? :roll:

I?m kidding of course, as the whole idea is absurd.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

If you don't remember the issue, then I don't know what to tell you.

You're right, I don't. Please enlighten me by posting credible evidence to back your claims. Thank you.

There was a time, in that period, where ATI was going to have a bit of OEM trouble if they couldn't get the WHQL certification from MS. WHATEVER the details were, ATI was running out of time to get the WHQL which OEMs wanted for their Windows based PC's.

Why couldn?t they get WHQL? At that time XP was the current OS and even a Radeon 7000 had WHQL drivers and doesn't even have shaders. Again I?ll ask what the DX level of hardware has to do with WHQL?

Also if SM 3.0 was a requirement for WHQL like you imply, was nVidia also "running out of time" for the GF5 FX series?

Credible evidence. Backup Claims. So indignant.

Here you Go

EDIT: Oops, I see Thilan found it and posted a link on the prior page.
Read the entire long article. You'll see that I was going from just memory and did not get the exact terminology correct. But I wasn't far off. Running out of time, 2.0b/3.0 is all there.

 

[BFG10K]

I've responded to that article above.

Also if you class Charlie as credible, is he also credible about nVidia's GPU failures?

 

[Keysplayr]

Ah, no. This was from before Charlie went ballistic on Nvidia. Charlie's tyrades only began within the last 2 years. When he lost NDA grace.

LMAO. The whole idea is absurd, eh? Tell me BFG, what would you accept as fact other than what is typed from your own fingers?
Waste of my time. Horse it too high.

Bottom line.

Two companies, ATI and Nvidia. Both are good at what they do in their own ways. Driver release frequency does not indicate, not in any way shape or form, the quality of the companies drivers. All it indicates is the frequency of driver releases and NOT what they include or how many issues are addressed. Sounds pretty stupid, but then so is this entire argument.
Azn has hit on many good points in this thread, and yet was blindly shot down. Derek Wilson had many good points as well, but blindly disregarded. Derek's post in this thread is even being quoted at Xtreme Systems forum, and it actually calmed down a similar argument there were having over there. It all comes down to stubborness on both sides actually. So we go nowhere. And will continue to do so for an infinite number of pages (without me of course, as I am done with this silliness).

/thread.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

Originally posted by: nRollo

Well, you would have thought that Derek's informational post would have ended this topic forever, as each company's methods of driver testing have their pro/cons.

Why would it end it if many don't agree with his opinion?

I thought it would because I don't think he has any reason to lie, and his description of the current situation clearly shows both methods have pros and cons.

Originally posted by: BFG10K

People want everything to just work like consoles, but that is not the way of computer gaming and never has been. People would have to be willing to pay more for that kind of QA when you consider the 100s of games out there and all the cards to test them on.

No, what we want is nVidia to have the same commitment as ATi when it comes to driver support. They don't and they've been riding on superior hardware in the past, but that's starting to change.

If they tested less games more frequently they might miss issues on the games not tested.

Originally posted by: BFG10K

Derek straight out says the monthly drivers are a marketing tool that only give the appearance of better service.

When my gaming library works better on ATi than nVidia that?s more than marketing and appearance. When I get fixes in one month that?s more than marketing and appearance.

If you were my customer BFG, you'd be the LAST customer I'd listen to. Not because I have anything against you, but because you don't represent the majority of customers. Back when NVIDIA was trying to get it's Vista drivers in order you were telling me they need to be fixing Red Faction and Serious Sam 1 and making that their priority. Those games were both well over 5 years old at the time. There's just not many people playing them anymore, but all the computers were beginning to be sold with Vista.
It's the equivalent being one of the last few guys with a black and white tv telling the tv stations that their shows don't look right on his black and white tv, and they better fix them. In business, you have to make decisions to cater to 99% of your market, not the 1%, because there is a cost/benefit associated with the time spent.

Originally posted by: BFG10K

As noted before, I'd think Derek's post would have basically put this issue to bed across the internet.

nVidia would simply love that, wouldn't they?

Beats me, I haven't asked them. I'd think ATi would be OK with that as well though as some here/elsewhere have said they prefer NVIDIA's method. As noted, I can see reasons for both.

Originally posted by: BFG10K

So ATi testing those 24 games every month gives you the more robust drivers than NVIDIA testing many more games every three?

24? More like 90+ and if you count the ones I no longer have installed that I've tried in the past it?s close to 200.

AMD has multiple driver trunks, and a rotating schedule of only about 2 dozen titles for regression testing that do not repeat within something like 6 months to a year.

Unless I'm misunderstanding Derek, they're testing 24 games at a time, not 90 or 200. You may be testing 90, but I don't think they are based on what Derek said.

Originally posted by: BFG10K

Interesting that AT's video editor doesn't agree with you and flat out says neither approach is better than the other.

Again that's his opinion, one I don?t share due to the contrary evidence I have available to me.

As video editor of AT, and someone in possession of information you and I don't have, his word is going to carry more weight than ours. The way it goes.

I honestly don't think you're testing 90 games a month, and if you are, not thoroughly. Most people have to earn a living, have family, friends, other hobbies. (not too mention how incredibly monotonous it would be to maintain a one man vigil on the driver state of multiple companies) Testing 3 games a day thoroughly would be quite the investment of time, especially for unpaid work. Of course, beyond this, even your selection of games is a tiny fraction of the games available, so it's possible you're just missing the games ATi has issues with.
And then there's that whole issue of "How much does it really matter if Red Faction has an issue, it's eight years old, most gamers have long since moved on."

Originally posted by: BFG10K

OK Derek said they have the "appearance" of being better, which is not the same thing as being better.

Project IGI: ATi 4850 | nVidia DX10 hardware

Red Faction: ATi 4850 | nVidia DX10 hardware

On ATi the games are playable; on nVidia they are not; that?s more than ?appearance?.

Sure- for those two ancient games very few people care about anymore. I had to Google Project IGI, didn't even know what it was.

Originally posted by: BFG10K
Oh that's right, they're ancient games so nVidia doesn't support them. That's how the party-line goes at nVidia, doesn't it? Well guess what? ATi support them.

Does ATi "support" them, or do they just happen to work with ATis drivers? If we had a few thousand people testing all the ancient games, would we find issues with both NVIDIA and ATi drivers? (of course)

If ATi is supporting them, are there more pressing issues they should be addressing, like the current games you need to rename the executable on to get AA? Or making their drivers more open and configurable for Crossfire? Or better Linux support?

Everything costs money BFG. When you are the guy in charge at NVIDIA, you can make the decision to allocate you limited driver team resources to 8 year old games very few people play any more.

Last but not least, I'm not the "party line" of anybody. Just giving my opinon of the situation like you.

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Credible evidence. Backup Claims. So indignant.

Here you Go

EDIT: Oops, I see Thilan found it and posted a link on the prior page.
Read the entire long article. You'll see that I was going from just memory and did not get the exact terminology correct. But I wasn't far off. Running out of time, 2.0b/3.0 is all there.

So where exactly in that article is the hint of either bribery by ATI or extortion by Microsoft? I see nothing in there that mentions either. In fact, it would seem that the article specifically DISPROVES your statement of:

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
More likely extortion by MS. Holding the WHQL certification for ransom IMHO, is not beneath MS.

Microsoft is the self-made god of its own standards, and there is one thing no one will complain about with MS, and that is its brutal enforcement of its standards. People may complain about how the standards are made, or how MS uses them, but the standards themselves have brought us a relatively sane computer industry with hardware and software that works together. MS is understandably bitchy about these standards, and defends them vigorously.

Does this sound like a company that will simply hand out certifications to anyone who pays them enough money? So what exactly are the details behind this extortion ring you mentioned?

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: Mem

Monthly official updates by AMD/ATi is basically very good support,I know most people prefer to have their way of doing things then Nvidia's beta drivers,lets face it big company like Nvidia has no excuse of not being able to release regular official drivers,plain lazyiness in my books.AMD/ATi users know within a week or so when the next official drivers are due,I can't say the same thing about Nvidia,got a problem with Nvidia drivers well try a beta and hope it fixes the issue.

Horses for courses but I know which one I prefer.

I would not be opposed to using betas if they listed the bug fixes. That way, I at least know whether to chance it or not... It seems like they bleed more leaked beta drives than AMD/ATi does money. I don't feel confident with all of those beta drivers floating around. However, I do use them from time to time. But I also don't store any important data on my main rig anyway... So, if it crashes my system, it is not the end of the end. The only problem is that I might run out of install for my DRM games... But they will be bargain bin by the time that happens (I hope).

 

[BenSkywalker]

You aren't addressing the point. The point is you can't get WHQL just by paying money like you implied. You have to pass the tests first.

You aren't listening- the WHQL drivers NEVER worked on ANY platform. This was a rather huge debacle during Vista's launch. They weren't tested by anyone, they weren't even close to beta quality drivers, not only did they fail to ever get the device functioning, they caused massive data corruption. Any testing done at all would have shown this to be the case, it was the wrong build of a driver, stamped WHQL and shipped by MS.

With ATi I get fixes quicker in general

Sure, ask people about the aspect ratio scaling that they have just now fixed after YEARS of waiting. Sac has been six years and counting. Sure, you can say Sac is only a single game, the aspect ratio issue impacted thousands of games- ATi did nothing for years about it.

As for your game problems, you appear to have listed two: Sacrifice and WoW. I can list dozens of games that I've had mores issues on nVidia than ATi, going right back to 2002 with the 9700 Pro.

Why don't we try this, forget the dozens of games- shoot out all 200 games you have checked and how many active players they have right now. I'll put that up against WoW. We will assume that every single one of the 200 games does not work on nVidia hardware and we will see what will impact more gamers, sound good?

I can also list wide-spread issues that affected multiple games for months

How are the drivers working for you under Win 3.1 btw? A good deal of the issues you were talking about were solved on Vista rather quickly. Actually, we don't even need to go back to legacy OSs, fire up Linux and see which drivers run better. You want to limit to gaming oriented OSs and DX10 hardware then you should try running a DX10 OS and see how many problems stick around for you

So what is the issue then? If ATi can do it why can't nVidia?

Wait until you have been running ATi hardware a bit longer. Or, if you are so inclined, go back through their release notes for a while- ATi has issues with creating new bugs in games that they had fixed previously. You will get used to that. One month release schedule you can't test as thoroughly as you could otherwise, that is just a reality and it applies for everyone. Of course, that can be taken to an extreme, wait until every game ever released has been tested before posting drivers which could take many, many years(man I would pay for those though ) so it comes down to deciding at which point you want to be at. ATi and nV have picked differing points. In the games I play, nV is certainly more robust and hasn't had issues like no proper scaling support for years. In the games you are playing- ATi has proven more robust and hasn't had issues with the particular games you have tested that nV did have. Which one is right? From your perspective, ATi's would make sense, for me, I'd tend to go with nV.

 

[lurk3r]

Wow 9 (now) pages of pointless bickering and not ONE useful post with actual information. You guys should be proud. Both companies have horrible examples of support, personally after having to constantly rebuild my computer every time everquest patched to fix Ati drivers for my 9800, and after seeing a 10fps loss after 'updrading' from a 256Mb 7900GT to a 512 MB x1900xtx I'm going to need a pretty convincing argument to ever give Ati a shot again.

 

[evolucion8]

Originally posted by: lurk3r
Wow 9 (now) pages of pointless bickering and not ONE useful post with actual information. You guys should be proud. Both companies have horrible examples of support, personally after having to constantly rebuild my computer every time everquest patched to fix Ati drivers for my 9800, and after seeing a 10fps loss after 'updrading' from a 256Mb 7900GT to a 512 MB x1900xtx I'm going to need a pretty convincing argument to ever give Ati a shot again.

You had some serious issues then, the 7900GT is no match for a X1950XT, even the X1950PRO outperforms it, and in the last two years, the games released are taking advantage of the X19X0 architecture and the gap is so wide, that games like Crysis are twice faster than their rival's counterpart aka GeForce 7. What is frustrating is that every time that a TWIMTBP program releases a game, an nVidia driver fix has to be released to solve issues and improve the performance of the game on nVidia hardware because it run faster on ATi hardware, except Lost Planet, that's a weird one.

 

[Sable]

lol at the PR teams out in force.

 

[Fattysharp]

I am not really sure how anyone can argue that an official service being provided is actually worse then not providing it. Regular updates are, in general, a good thing. Yes, sometimes they will get something wrong, and yes sometimes you will not get your problem fixed.

People want to be able to rely on their vendor to provide suupport for the product they purchased. When I buy a product, I ask myself which compnay has the better support if the products are similar in price and preformance. Warranty and updates are very high on my list.

Alternatively, I can put on a tinfoil hat and tell everyone that any company's updates are a consiracy and merely a means to control the general pubic and my hat protects me from their updating mind control drivers and that is why i only buy products that do not update regularly because the hat chaufs my ears and less updates meals less hat wearing. But that would be plain silly. Conspiracy's are also at fault for run-on sentences.

Please note that I own both nvida and ati products. I prefer ati's official update schedule to nvidia's unofficial beta release "if it works great, if not then it is just a beta afterall" attitude. both make great products. Nvidia vendors have better warranty, and ATI has better driver support. Notice I said support, not drivers specifically.

 

[solofly]

Before FX series came along Nvidias drivers were near perfect. After FX series they are getting worst by generation. I've been playing with computers for the last 27+ years but you won't find me complaining about nvidia drivers anywhere on the internet, it's time I start.

Picture below of BF2 was captured last night using driver 177.92 and an nvidia card...

http://img362.imageshack.us/my...age=nvidia17722ps0.jpg

Now this might not look bad at all but in reality (meaning as I'm playing) the whole thing flashes.

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Ah, no. This was from before Charlie went ballistic on Nvidia. Charlie's tyrades only began within the last 2 years. When he lost NDA grace.

LMAO. The whole idea is absurd, eh? Tell me BFG, what would you accept as fact other than what is typed from your own fingers?
Waste of my time. Horse it too high.

Bottom line.

Two companies, ATI and Nvidia. Both are good at what they do in their own ways. Driver release frequency does not indicate, not in any way shape or form, the quality of the companies drivers. All it indicates is the frequency of driver releases and NOT what they include or how many issues are addressed. Sounds pretty stupid, but then so is this entire argument.
Azn has hit on many good points in this thread, and yet was blindly shot down. Derek Wilson had many good points as well, but blindly disregarded. Derek's post in this thread is even being quoted at Xtreme Systems forum, and it actually calmed down a similar argument there were having over there. It all comes down to stubborness on both sides actually. So we go nowhere. And will continue to do so for an infinite number of pages (without me of course, as I am done with this silliness).

/thread.

Good points usually gets piled on with dirt until people realize much later when more evidence is revealed.

Then again it's not just stubbornness. More has to do with what card they have or sponsored by x company.