Atom X3/X5/X7 Windows device discussion thread

[volcane]

having purchased a Lenovo IdeaPad 100s (Z3735F, 2GB / 32GB eMMC), and being happy with its performance.

I just bought one too. It's a great tool for the stuff I use it for - browsing, email and writing (it runs Word and Scrivener just fine).

My main gripe is the horrendous viewing angle on the monitor, but I like to think of it as a built in privacy screen feature!

 

[TeknoBug]

I just bought one too. It's a great tool for the stuff I use it for - browsing, email and writing (it runs Word and Scrivener just fine).

My main gripe is the horrendous viewing angle on the monitor, but I like to think of it as a built in privacy screen feature!

I used to go for those types of displays as I sometimes use my laptop while on the train/bus. I see a lot of people use iPads and boy you can see what they're looking at/reading from the other side on train.

 

[Kaido]

Whoo, the first Braswell MINIX is available to order!

http://www.amazon.com/MINIX-Braswell-Directly-Technology-Limited/dp/B01BGBENA4

The MINIX NGC-1:

* $400 shipped
* Windows 10 Home
* 1.6ghz Braswell Celeron N3150 14nm quad-core processor
* 128gb M.2 SSD (upgradable)
* 4GB RAM (upgradable, max 8 gigs)
* Gen 8 Intel HD Graphics (4K/H.265 video acceleration support & almost twice as fast as Bay Trail HD graphics)
* Dual-band 802.11ac Wifi
* Bluetooth 4.2
* 4K output
* Mini-DisplayPort & HDMI port (dual-monitor capable)
* (3) USB 3.0 ports
* Digital audio (optical SPDIF port)
* Gigabit Ethernet
* Microphone/Headphone jack
* Kensington lock port

Video reviews: (see the Amazon link above for pictures in the user review section)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaN-Ez1Pr_A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=637baiM3hC0

The price is kind of a shocker, given that their current Z64 model is only $159, but you also get a lot more for the money (plus upgradability). Listing of the cons from the two reviews currently on Amazon:

Cons:

When the PC is working hard sometimes my mouse/keyboard was laggy. I wonder if the case blocks or reflects the signal of the wireless USB adapter. Using a USB hub seems to help the keyboard work better.

CPU is not that fast compared to my i7 desktop. I hear an i3 version is coming.

(I had a few issues with Kodi on H265 movie playback but on Plex it played fine the 1080p version and the 4K being not smooth so my guess is that its a software / drivers / codecs problem and not the machine it self)

As far as the mouse & keyboard lag, I've had this happen on my BRIX machines intermittently. I don't know if some of them emit more EMI than others or what, but I typically use the Logitech MK320 keyboard/mouse set from Newegg (the Newegg unit comes with the tiny Unity receiver, Amazon is still selling the older long receiver stick with the MK320 combo). To fix the issue, I either use one of those 2" USB extenders or just a USB extension cable.

As far as the performance goes, yes, a Celeron is not going to be anywhere near as fast as a Core i7 chip, obviously. That's the price of small, cheap, and low-power. Curious as to what Kill-a-watt says is the power usage. I'll find out once my test unit arrives!

 

[you2]

Unacceptable price point. Rather obtain a NUC/cubi/brix I3 at that price point. There is a huge difference in performance.

 

[TeknoBug]

Man that Celeron Minix is unreasonably expensive. You can buy a Celeron N3150 motherboard for $80
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...30881&cm_re=msi_n3150i-_-13-130-881-_-Product

 

[Kaido]

Unacceptable price point. Rather obtain a NUC/cubi/brix I3 at that price point. There is a huge difference in performance.

Man that Celeron Minix is unreasonably expensive. You can buy a Celeron N3150 motherboard for $80
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...30881&cm_re=msi_n3150i-_-13-130-881-_-Product

At first glance, it does seem overly expensive. However:

1. $400 gets you a turnkey, low-wattage, ventless computer.

2. That price includes the $99 Windows 10 Home license, which you would have to buy separately with a DIY machine like the above motherboard link. This makes the hardware cost $300 for shopping comparisons.

3. For $300, you get a quad-core Celeron, 4 gigs of RAM, 128gb SSD, 802.11ac Wi-Fi, and Bluetooth 4.2. If we're going to compare apples to apples, then we need to include the full suite of hardware included. For example:

Windows 10 Home license ($100)
Mini-ITX case with power supply ($50)
Motherboard/CPU combo ($80)
128gb SSD ($50)
4GB RAM ($17)
802.11ac + Bluetooth 4.2 card ($40)

That's $337, which is $63 cheaper than the MINIX, which is a significant price savings at the overall princepoint. It's not a perfect 1:1 comparison because the DIY motherboard doesn't have dual digital displays like the MINIX does (just VGA + HDMI instead of MiniDP + HDMI), plus the misc. port differences between the units, but given the majority of the same parts, for the extra $63 you get the features back in #1 above - it's ready to go out of the box (no assembly required), it's low-wattage (although I'd imagine the DIY version would be pretty close in actual power usage), it has a tiny footprint, and it's ventless, making it nice for dirty environments, like in a shop.

I think those are some pretty compelling features for the extra money. However, like you2 said, it's not the only option. There's a fairly comparable (1.5ghz Broadwell vs. 1.6ghz Braswell, meh) MSI Cubi with a Celeron for $130:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856167091

Add $100 for Windows 10, $50 for the SSD, $17 for the RAM, already has wifi & bluetooth built-in, and you're looking at $297, which is over $100 in savings versus the MINIX. So price-wise, that's probably your best bet right now if you don't mind a couple minutes of assembly & a small vent on the back. So basically, having the MINIX be a turn-key, off-the-shelf system adds a $100 premium over a DIY solution. I would definitely like to see it be cheaper, but it's also nice to have something that you can simply take out of the box & use right away, plus is ventless, plus has all the drivers & stuff already installed. At least we have options!

 

[you2]

First you keep talking about windows 10 license. I realize that might be very important to yourself so is relevant in your evaluation but for myself I will run linux. Also if you are a business person or in school you can easily obtain legal microsoft bless version of windows 10 for well under $50.
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Your price point for the wireless card is outrageous; I think the intel card I purchased was $17 when I purchased a brix the (7260.HMWWB.R) I ordered cost $20. I wont go into the other items other than to say it sounds like your picking price points to make the unit favorable not what you would actually pay if you had to buy it yourself.

 

[heymrdj]

First you keep talking about windows 10 license. I realize that might be very important to yourself so is relevant in your evaluation but for myself I will run linux. Also if you are a business person or in school you can easily obtain legal microsoft bless version of windows 10 for well under $50.
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Your price point for the wireless card is outrageous; I think the intel card I purchased was $17 when I purchased a brix the (7260.HMWWB.R) I ordered cost $20. I wont go into the other items other than to say it sounds like your picking price points to make the unit favorable not what you would actually pay if you had to buy it yourself.

Lol ok, he used the average person's build. Most people aren't building up Linux boxes, they are buying Windows. Nice try though.

As for a wireless card with built in Bluetooth for 17$ new, link please.

 

[Kaido]

First you keep talking about windows 10 license. I realize that might be very important to yourself so is relevant in your evaluation but for myself I will run linux. Also if you are a business person or in school you can easily obtain legal microsoft bless version of windows 10 for well under $50.
-
Your price point for the wireless card is outrageous; I think the intel card I purchased was $17 when I purchased a brix the (7260.HMWWB.R) I ordered cost $20. I wont go into the other items other than to say it sounds like your picking price points to make the unit favorable not what you would actually pay if you had to buy it yourself.

As per the "apples to apples" portion of my post, the point of the DIY build post was a 1:1 comparison. Removing hardware & software from the equation negates that. The MINIX comes with Windows 10, 802.11ac wireless, and Bluetooth 4.2. The 7260.HMWWB.R chip only comes with Bluetooth 4.0, not 4.2, and also the motherboard/CPU combo TeknoBug linked has a 1x PCIe slot, so that card would not fit anyway, thus the price is not outrageous because that would be what is required to get the same specs in a DIY rig. In the interest of matching hardware as much as possible, I added the pricing for those 3 hardware features into the overall cost.

Thus, the 1:1 price premium on the MINIX is $63 (vs. a Mini-ITX build) or $103 (vs. a Cubi build), and for the price, you get a ventless computer, small footprint, and turnkey support (no assembly required, no Windows installation required, no driver installation required). So you can take it out of the box & immediately use it, and also throw it in a dirty environment and not have to worry about cleaning out fans & vent ports all the time. Whether or not that is worth the price premium depends on a number of variables. Saving $100 by using a Cubi is pretty appealing, considering all you have to do is pop in a small SSD & a couple of RAM chips, and then install Windows & drivers. Not much work at all.

If you don't need the exact same set of requirements as the MINIX offers, you can obviously save money by not purchasing a Windows license & by getting similar, but not 1:1 equipment (i.e. BT 4.0 vs. 4.2), especially if you get a system like a Cubi that has a Mini-PCIe slot ($17 card, although the Cubi comes with a card already) vs a 1x PCIe in the Mini-ITX system. So if your goal is to put Linux on it, then the Cubi is a lot more favorably-priced, for sure.

It gets even more complicated if you start considering laptops & don't need an SSD boot drive. Best Buy regularly sells Celeron laptops with 4 gigs of RAM for $199 to $249, cheaper than even the Cubi, and which - compared to a desktop unit - includes a keyboard, trackpad, screen, and built-in battery backup (and can be run as a desktop with the lid shut, or open using the built-in screen as a second monitor). In fact, Best Buy has a Celeron laptop on sale for $179:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/asus-15...n-4gb-memory-500gb-hard-drive-black/4476600.p

So, there a lot of options. The MINIX is nice because you can buy it, plug it in, and start using it right away. It just comes at a ~$100 price premium over alternative options. As cheap as $400 is compared to other fully-loaded mini desktop solutions, it's pretty high for a Celeron-based system these days, given how cheap laptops are & systems like the Cubi or even DIY Mini-ITX systems.

 

[TeknoBug]

As for a wireless card with built in Bluetooth for 17$ new, link please.

I had one in my i7 3770K, Gigabyte one and it wasn't expensive.

 

[Kaido]

As for a wireless card with built in Bluetooth for 17$ new, link please.

You can do even better if you don't need the latest & greatest card. The Intel 3160 (half-height Mini-PCIe card) has 802.11ac & Bluetooth 4.0 for ten bucks:

http://www.amazon.com/Intel-3160-HMWG-R-Wireless-Bluetooth-Supports/dp/B00MY9EVHI/

 

[Kaido]

My first MINIX NGC-1 arrives today, anxious to see how it performs. I've rolled out a bunch of the Baytrail Z64 models for different projects...really basic office workstations, digital display engines, thin clients, that sort of thing, but I'm curious if the Braswell Celeron offers much more real-world power than the Baytrail Atom does. A turnkey, sealed box with dual monitor support is pretty nice. I liked using the blue HP Pavilion Minis in the past, but HP's availability has been crap on those, so I'm really glad that MINIX has an alternative unit now, especially ones that don't have any vents that need periodic cleaning maintenance

 

[Kaido]

Posted that & the mailman magically showed up with it

Even though it's not much bigger than the Z64, it looks & feels a lot bigger. Metallic chassis (aluminum I think). Definitely more in NUC territory than in AppleTV territory size & feel-wise now; I think I can still ghetto-mount them (weight feels about the same), but it will require two strips of heavy-duty double-sided velcro now. The antennas are enormous (like 6" tall), but are removable, which is really nice. Power button & three USB 3.0 ports on one side, then the "back" side with all the ports.

There is a definitely lag in the system, same as with the Z64 Baytrail model. Just kind of a hesitation in everything. Bugs me as a power user, but most end users don't even notice. Watching the CPU, all four cores pretty much get pegged doing whatever. Just downloading Crystal Disk Mark via IE (Win10 came as a fresh setup, but oddly put both Edge & IE in the taskbar) maxed it out at 100% CPU. Read clocks in at 206.5 Mb/s & write comes in a 148.3 Mb/s (not sure of the M.2 brand, it just says SATA HDD in properties). 18 seconds from off to desktop. Quick BIOS check has CPU at 47C & system at 40C.

The power brick is crazy small:

Angled size reference vs. the Z64:

Again, it doesn't look much bigger than the black plastic model in pictures, but it actually feels a lot bigger in person:

Headphone jack, Mini DisplayPort, HDMI, SPDIF, Ethernet, Power:

 

[heymrdj]

I had one in my i7 3770K, Gigabyte one and it wasn't expensive.

You can do even better if you don't need the latest & greatest card. The Intel 3160 (half-height Mini-PCIe card) has 802.11ac & Bluetooth 4.0 for ten bucks:

http://www.amazon.com/Intel-3160-HMWG-R-Wireless-Bluetooth-Supports/dp/B00MY9EVHI/

I will say I was wrong because I didn't realize how cheap they had gotten, the last card I had to buy was still 79$.

That being said I wouldn't do a 3160, 1x1 sucks. if I were buying a 3 year old card, it'd be the 7260. Looks like those are 25-40$ depending on the type.

 

[RossMAN]

Eat dinner or read Kaido's posts today, hmmn.

Cliffs notes anyone?

 

[RossMAN]

There is a definitely lag in the system, same as with the Z64 Baytrail model. Just kind of a hesitation in everything. Bugs me as a power user, but most end users don't even notice. Watching the CPU, all four cores pretty much get pegged doing whatever. Just downloading Crystal Disk Mark via IE (Win10 came as a fresh setup, but oddly put both Edge & IE in the taskbar) maxed it out at 100% CPU. Read clocks in at 206.5 Mb/s & write comes in a 148.3 Mb/s (not sure of the M.2 brand, it just says SATA HDD in properties). 18 seconds from off to desktop. Quick BIOS check has CPU at 47C & system at 40C.

I was sold until I read about the lag. I want a small, fast, low power, efficient office computer for my wife, mostly 95% internet, Youtube, flash and some light amateur video editing. Nothing CPU/GPU intensive and no gaming. Wired ethernet is a requirement, WiFi/BT would be nice but not required.

I'm itching to pull the trigger but hate to see a new piece of tech or deal come along if I just wait a few weeks.

Which of the following do you think we should pursue?
1) $400 Minix with everything I need out of the box.
2) Intel NUC for around $400 + $150 W10/RAM I've seen i3 Skylake on sale.
3) Every 6-8 weeks Frys has the MSI Cubi i5-5200U for $229 after rebate & coupon.

The last two options I'd have to pay for Windows 10 (and install/configure), SSD and RAM. I have a few spare SSD drives so that's already covered and 8GB SODIMM is about $35.

 

[Kaido]

Eat dinner or read Kaido's posts today, hmmn.

Eat dinner while neffing :thumbsup:

 

[RossMAN]

Eat dinner while neffing :thumbsup:

Ended up eating dinner, reading your excellent posts and tonight's episode of Second Chance (which sadly has been cancelled).

 

[Kaido]

I was sold until I read about the lag. I want a small, fast, low power, efficient office computer for my wife, mostly 95% internet, Youtube, flash and some light amateur video editing. Nothing CPU/GPU intensive and no gaming. Wired ethernet is a requirement, WiFi/BT would be nice but not required.

I'm itching to pull the trigger but hate to see a new piece of tech or deal come along if I just wait a few weeks.

Which of the following do you think we should pursue?
1) $400 Minix with everything I need out of the box.
2) Intel NUC for around $400 + $150 W10/RAM I've seen i3 Skylake on sale.
3) Every 6-8 weeks Frys has the MSI Cubi i5-5200U for $229 after rebate & coupon.

The last two options I'd have to pay for Windows 10 (and install/configure), SSD and RAM. I have a few spare SSD drives so that's already covered and 8GB SODIMM is about $35.

At minimum, I would do a Core chip in that situation; you would find the NGC-1 frustrating, especially for any kind of video editing. The newer i3 Skylakes & onboard graphics compare pretty well to the previous i5 Broadwells, so I'd just go with the newer tech. Don't forget that Gigabyte offers it too:

http://www.amazon.com/Gigabyte-i3-6100U-Barebone-Components-GB-BSi3H-6100/dp/B0196KJCPS

$279 for an i3 Skylake BRIX, plus your existing 2.5" SSD & a $34 8GB stick (still takes DDR3L instead of DDR4, which is nice). Windows 10 OEM is $87:

http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Windows-Home-System-Builder/dp/B00ZSI7Y3U/

$400 total. That would be a pretty nice machine :thumbsup:

 

[RossMAN]

At minimum, I would do a Core chip in that situation; you would find the NGC-1 frustrating, especially for any kind of video editing. The newer i3 Skylakes & onboard graphics compare pretty well to the previous i5 Broadwells, so I'd just go with the newer tech. Don't forget that Gigabyte offers it too:

http://www.amazon.com/Gigabyte-i3-6100U-Barebone-Components-GB-BSi3H-6100/dp/B0196KJCPS

$279 for an i3 Skylake BRIX, plus your existing 2.5" SSD & a $34 8GB stick (still takes DDR3L instead of DDR4, which is nice). Windows 10 OEM is $87:

http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Windows-Home-System-Builder/dp/B00ZSI7Y3U/

$400 total. That would be a pretty nice machine :thumbsup:

Aside from the CPU/graphics, how does the Gigabyte compare to the MSI Cubi for the other stuff like ports, power adapter, etc.?

 

[you2]

I'm not sure I remember; but what I can tell you is that the variance seem to be mini vs full size (for display ports/hdmi); sd slot (ok the chromebox has one and I think the very latest nuc have them; cubi/brix I don't think so - but the new cubi might - but they aren't released yet) power depends on the model (the iris pro brix have larger psu) usb ports are the same I think. Part of the problem with your question is it also depends on generation. I *think* brix and cubi are mostly one generation - but certainly nuc is 3 or 4 and someone - asus? msi ? gigabyte? recently announced skylake versions. To be quite frank rather than ask gigabyte vs msi; I would decide which specific model you want and then check the ports. As I said the major variance are going to be mini/micro vs full size and the very newest models are adding sd slots. ALSO the internal port for hard drive is changing (msata vs m.2). If I remember correctly one nice thing was that all cubi allowed for second sata 2.5 drive but you have to pick specfiic brix/nuc models for this feature.
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I know you asked msi vs gigabyte but if you shop for more than a short period the models change on you.

 

[Kaido]

Aside from the CPU/graphics, how does the Gigabyte compare to the MSI Cubi for the other stuff like ports, power adapter, etc.?

Pretty standard...up front, there's two USB 3.0 ports, plus headphone & mic jacks. On the back, another two USB 3.0 ports, Mini-DP & HDMI ports, Gigabit Ethernet, power & Kensington lock ports. Uses a small laptop-style power adapter.

 

[you2]

I just think it is kind of silly to buy anything close to an atom system for more than $200; and the only reason to spend $200 (or less) is if the device is pocketable. Perhaps the chromebox was an exception (I think it was around $250 but that was a couple of years ago and this stuff is less expensive now). The problem is those system really lag for complex web pages. They can be ok for video streaming at the right resolution providing the have hardware support for the chosen encoding (hit an encoding that requires software decoding and you might as well as go read a book).
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The pentinum/I-x are so much faster - but they tend to cost more - so when the cost difference is less than $50 for similar boxes I think it is no brain-er where to spend the money. And yea I'm willing to save $20+ to get BT 4.0 over 4.2 ; I think just about everyone reading this thread is willing to do so; the only reason 4.2 became an issue is that was the chipset chosen by the vendor and the only reason they chose it is becauase the system was being built today and not last year - so I really don't find it an apple to orange comparison. It will nearly always be the case that the phone, laptop or mini pc you buy today will use a chipset supporting the latest spec. However (key question and one you did fail to ask in your apple to apple comparison), which one performs better. The intel wifi card I quoted (mine was purchased at amazon; so i did not hunt very hard for the decent price) is NOT a top of the line card but it is very decent and definitly way faster than 1x (it is after all a 7260 card).
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Why do people want to run windows-10 anyways on one of these boxes ? I could understand (maybe) if it had media player or if you were going to use the box for word processing but beyond that I just don't get it.

 

[VirtualLarry]

At first glance, it does seem overly expensive. However:

1. $400 gets you a turnkey, low-wattage, ventless computer.

2. That price includes the $99 Windows 10 Home license, which you would have to buy separately with a DIY machine like the above motherboard link. This makes the hardware cost $300 for shopping comparisons.

3. For $300, you get a dual-core Celeron, 4 gigs of RAM, 128gb SSD, 802.11ac Wi-Fi, and Bluetooth 4.2. If we're going to compare apples to apples, then we need to include the full suite of hardware included. For example:

That IS expensive. I Got my N3150 quad-core (it's a quad-core, not dual-core), with 2GB RAM and 32GB eMMC (add a cheap and fast Silicon Power 64GB microSD for more storage), with N wireless and 10/100 ethernet for $81 + ship.

Wintel W8 Pro at geekbuying.com. Came with activated Win10 Home, only 32-bit though. (Rather disappointed in that.)

 

[Kaido]

That IS expensive. I Got my N3150 quad-core (it's a quad-core, not dual-core), with 2GB RAM and 32GB eMMC (add a cheap and fast Silicon Power 64GB microSD for more storage), with N wireless and 10/100 ethernet for $81 + ship.

Wintel W8 Pro at geekbuying.com. Came with activated Win10 Home, only 32-bit though. (Rather disappointed in that.)

Edited, thanks.

Yeah, but looking at the parts: Win10 32-bit vs. 64-bit, 2GB vs. 4GB (upgradable to 8GB), 32GB eMMC vs. 128gb M.2 SSD (upgradable), 10/100 Ethernet vs. Gigabit Ethernet. I'd imagine the M.2 is quite a bit faster than the eMMC too, so you get a speed advantage there as well.

I think the price difference is mostly mental, in terms of whether or not it's worth buying. No one wants to pay $400 for a Celeron, but a fixed-board 2GB/32GB eMMC is a pretty different animal than a 4GB/128GB M.2, both of which are upgradable parts on this unit. Plus it's in a metal case, with Gigabit Ethernet, with dual antennas, with dual monitor output. I understand the backlash against the price, but again, they're not really the same machine, even though we mentally dump these little low-power machines into the "cheap" category.

With that said, I'd certainly like to see a lower price. For example, a typical business config would be $400 for the NGC-1, $100 for the Win10 Pro upgrade to get it on a domain, and $180 for Office 2016 for Business to get the Office suite with Outlook. $680 total. My typical i5 BRIX build is $1150, iirc (dual-core i5, 16GB RAM, 250gb SSD @ ~500 Mb/s, dual-monitor output, Gigabit Ethernet), whereas my previous MINIX setup was $160 for the Baytrail Z64, $100 for the Win10 Pro upgrade, and $180 for Office ($440 total). Granted, again, you were limited (single-monitor output, 2 gigs of RAM, 32gb SSD, etc.), but it made for a really reasonably-priced business machine, especially for companies that were upgrading from XP & didn't have much of an IT budget to play around with. For the extra $240, you get twice as much RAM, four times as much boot drive storage space, double monitors, and Gigabit Ethernet, plus you can upgrade the RAM & SSD as needed. The dual-monitor feature alone is worth the money imo (or, you know, buy a Cubi & save $100, but it's still a $300 machine vs. say an $85 Geek Buying machine). The only real limitation is the crap processor, but it's fine for most office users.