Attempting to get a Refund for not accepting the Windows Vista EULA

[DarkThinker]

So, today I did something I have always wanted to do. I called a Laptop manufacturer to let them know that the one size fits all policy doesn't work for me. I use Linux, Vista might be fine for someone else God bless, all I am going to have on my system in reality is Fedora Linux, that's all I need, it's all I want.

I called Lenovo just now since I have just received the Laptop today. I told them I don't agree and that I want a refund of the Microsoft Tax as per the EULA presented to me at bootup.

I know this might be a long journey and no this is not about the Money, the $130 is definitely not worth the hassle, but I want to express my free opinion and lack of interest in a Microsoft imposed solution. Not everyone wants to use a Microsoft solution and it's important to me that Lenovo hears me out...not with their ears...but with their pockets, where it counts so to speak.

I hear from some people that usually Lenovo approaches people with refunds on an NDA condition. I will NOT accept an NDA condition. It's out of the question, I would accept NDA had money been the item of pursuit here. It's not, I should not have to hide the fact that I am practicing my legal rights as per the EULA.

The representative tried to tell me that Lenovo can't return the money. I disagreed and I mentioned that Lenovo has returned money before and the EULA doesn't lie. I told him to stop talking with me and consult the legal department with this case they have an answer for him, He then talked to his supervisor and told me that I will be contacted tomorrow, so I picked the time of my liking and I am expecting a call tomorrow from them.

I would appreciate advice from anyone that has gone through this little fun trip.

Thanks
DK

This thread has run its course.
-jpeyton

 

[heymrdj]

If you want to be a free thinking linux open source junkie, buy an open source laptop. These companies are only supporting microsoft for one reason. You would be an idiot to design a company around anyones desire to install linux distros, support would be hell.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: heymrdj
If you want to be a free thinking linux open source junkie, buy an open source laptop. These companies are only supporting microsoft for one reason. You would be an idiot to design a company around anyones desire to install linux distros, support would be hell.

That's understood.

But all that doesn't matter. I have always used Thinkpads, they have features I can't work without. And to top it off, I got a great deal through Lenovo on this one. The thing that matters, EULA obliges them to comply with my reasonable demand.

Otherwise, they are going to have a chat with my legal representative about it.

 

[Hacp]

You aren't paying 130 dollars for the OS. You're paying a reduced price.

 

[DarkThinker]

That's up for argument. A license is a license. It keeps it's value none the less.

But still, the $130 is not the item here. It's Lenovo abiding by the terms of the EULA from Microsoft. Any deviation from that and they will have to answer to some legal authority in this country and that you can guarantee.

 

[bamacre]

But isn't it the EULA that you refuse to agree with?

BTW, it is my opinion based upon vast experience with Dell's pricing that OEM's pay less than $30 for Windows basic/home edition.

 

[Hacp]

You get refunded for what you pay for, not the sticker price. If I buy something from Dell with a sticker price of 2000, but I actually paid 600, I won't get refunded for 2000. I'll get 600 back. You're looking for at best 30-40 dollars for a few hours of work. Good luck.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: bamacre
But isn't it the EULA that you refuse to agree with?

Yes, the Microsoft EULA. According to it, the manfacturer / installer is the one that has to answer the customer when he / she refuses the EULA. This is in the text of the EULA.
Why? Because Lenovo was the entity that installed Windows on the X200 not Microsoft.

Microsoft made the EULA and Lenovo agreed to prompt me to reply.
I reply to Lenovo as that is the party I am dealing with and Lenovo can deal with MS on their own time.

BTW, it is my opinion based upon vast experience with Dell's pricing that OEM's pay less than $30 for Windows basic/home edition.

Well, this is a Vista Business license and a quick google search will show Lenovo offering $130 for refunds.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: Hacp
You get refunded for what you pay for, not the sticker price. If I buy something from Dell with a sticker price of 2000, but I actually paid 600, I won't get refunded for 2000. I'll get 600 back. You're looking for at best 30-40 dollars for a few hours of work. Good luck.

Yes thank you. It's good the money isn't my motivation though.

I just want to make a point, it might cost me time, but I will make that point none the less.
I refuse to stand by anymore while these pointless product costs are being passed down my way so that Microsoft can force yet another person to take it up the ass like a good customer.

They make me buy Vista and I don't want Vista. I don't want XP either. Just give me my damn laptop. Did I have a say in it? What if I want DOS? What if I want Fedora or <Inset Free Linux distro here> ? Why even bother with what I want? Offer OS as an option, those who don't want it don't get it.

I am not saying I want Lenovo to offer more Linux options. I am just saying make Windows an option, stop forcing people to get Windows when they can have something else for free or much less.

What if I have a full legit Windows 2000 / XP copy on my desk and I decide I don't want to pay for another license since I have this legal copy that I paid for on my desk?

I buy a laptop and end up with 2 copies of Windows both that I paid for and one that I use?

What if and what if.....


Windows is something I am NOT willing to pay for. Because all I do to it is format it (if I didn't put it myself on a system)

I wouldn't mind it for free, like the one I was given at work to do things from home, but I am not willing to pay for Windows.

 

[WackyDan]

Then you are an idiot.

You can buy ThinkPads preloaded with Linux, without Windows from various Lenovo Business Partners, and the Linux may not be the flavor you like, but it's actually preloaded by Lenovo. So you fail at your own research.

The COA on the bottom of the machine is what signifies the cost of license on any laptop or desktop. MS requires it and it is ONLY considered a base hardware license for that OS on that specific machine and is only considered a full OS license when run with the Lenovo/Dell/HP preload.

I've seen many a customer buy the Linux preloaded ThinkPads only to install their volume install of Windows... Which is against license with MS. Not only will it get that company fined, but the IT director fired for wanted to save about $40 a machine.

Look... I know where you are coming from, but you are the one that ordered a ThinkPad knowing it was coming with Windows, and then after the fact ask for a refund of the OEM COA license cost? *When you can buy a linux preloaded ThinkPad from other sources.

Good luck.

Edit by the way.... here's just one. http://www.pcconnection.com/IP...Detail.htm?sku=8927687

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
I refuse to stand by anymore while these pointless product costs are being passed down my way so that Microsoft can force yet another person to take it up the ass like a good customer.

I just totally disagree with your perception here.

No one is forcing you to buy anything, period. You chose the brand and model laptop even though it included software which you don't intend to use. You agreed to buy it anyway, and at the listed price.

There are alternatives. There are laptops on the market that do not include Microsoft Windows. Dell alone offers at least 12 different laptops with Free Dos or Linux.

But as you said,...

I have always used Thinkpads, they have features I can't work without.

You as a customer went with the product that best meets your demands and agreed to purchase that product. I think it is wrong to try and force the company to buy back part of the product. IMO, it is you breaking the agreement.

 

[coolVariable]

You are a moron.
If you didn't want it, you shouldn't have ordered it.
Nobody forced you to buy a laptop with Windows.
I hope Lenovo sticks it to you and refuses your ridiculous request.

 

[unfalliblekrutch]

Not only does Lenovo sell thinkpads that don't have windows so that you could have purchased a laptop without the windows "tax," you are trying to say that it isn't about the money. But then you say you purchased this particular laptop because it was a good deal. Well what does a good deal worth in non-monetary measurements? Nothing. So you saved money by buying a laptop with windows and you say in principle you believe you shouldn't have to pay so much for a computer with windows? It doesn't even make sense because you already paid less

Furthermore, no one is forcing you to buy the laptop from lenovo as previously mentioned. Not only does lenovo offer options without windows, so do many many other manufacturers. And, quite honestly, no one is forcing you to buy a laptop in the first place.

You knew what you were buying before hand and it seems you chose to buy that laptop because it was cheap. If it isn't the money you're after, then spend a little more paying for a laptop without windows preinstalled so microsoft doesnt see any of the money from your purchase in the first place. Or, maybe, it is the money you are concerned with after all, in which case get off of your high horse and admit you are splitting hairs in the EULA to make a quick buck.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: WackyDan
Then you are an idiot.

You can buy ThinkPads preloaded with Linux, without Windows from various Lenovo Business Partners, and the Linux may not be the flavor you like, but it's actually preloaded by Lenovo. So you fail at your own research.

Really?

Does that apply to refurbished Lenovos too?

Had I spotted one without Windows, you'd think I would have picked it up instead?

I've seen many a customer buy the Linux preloaded ThinkPads only to install their volume install of Windows... Which is against license with MS. Not only will it get that company fined, but the IT director fired for wanted to save about $40 a machine.

So Microsoft knows what is best for people? They should take their decisions for them?
That makes no sense. "I am fining you just so that you don't commit anything illegal "

Look... I know where you are coming from, but you are the one that ordered a ThinkPad knowing it was coming with Windows, and then after the fact ask for a refund of the OEM COA license cost?

I read this thing called the EULA and accepting the so called EULA is the only way to use the software. The so called EULA was ASKING me if I agreed with it's terms. I said no. the EULA directs me if I don't then I should contact the vendor for a refund.

How does that make me an idiot?

This is how microsoft has been sucking people's blood dry. Have them pay up either they use the software or not.


I do happen to recall these Massive anti-trust lawsuits in this very country about this very issue. Microsoft has to abide by certain laws. Something some people here don't just understand.

*When you can buy a linux preloaded ThinkPad from other sources.
Good luck.

Edit by the way.... here's just one. http://www.pcconnection.com/IP...Detail.htm?sku=8927687

Well let me ask you. Can you get me a near brand spanking new X200 almost $1500+ in value, preloaded with Linux, has not been subject to the MS tax and only for $717.00 ? I doubt it.

Because that is exactly how much I picked up the X200 for and I figured Vista is not what I
want, I was given no option, Nothing is wrong with practicing my legal right here.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: coolVariable
You are a moron.
If you didn't want it, you shouldn't have ordered it.
Nobody forced you to buy a laptop with Windows.
I hope Lenovo sticks it to you and refuses your ridiculous request.

- Vista was the only option

- Lenovo can't legally refuse me a refund, not even they said they can't, the rep contacted legal department and confirmed that they can't just say no, they need to look into this.

- The EULA is an agreement and I am following it's guidelines, because I know how to read what is being presented to me instead of clicking OK like a dumbass on something that matters to me....unlike some here :disgust:

So as you see sir, you are the moron here

 

[Parasitic]

This is one of the reasons I really think computer manufacturers should offer an "OS Delete" option on computer purchases. I'd loved to pay $30 less on my Lenovo S10 since the first thing I did when I got the little sucker was to reformat and put Vista on it.

 

[Hacp]

I remember HP remedied this by including the price of the OS in your invoice. It amounted to 1 dollar I think.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: unfalliblekrutch
Not only does Lenovo sell thinkpads that don't have windows so that you could have purchased a laptop without the windows "tax," you are trying to say that it isn't about the money.

Can you show me where Lenovo offers a no Windows option while buying a laptop, specifically the X200?

Neither in the NEW laptop customization section nor in the refurbished sections have I seen the option to buy a non-windows X200

You want proof?

BEHOLD!

Matter of fact, I have not yet spotted a no windows option on a Lenovo of any of the current generation.

It turns out, Lenovo stopped most if not all of their Linux offerings that could negatively impact Windows Vista adoption.

People would then order with free Linux and then proceed to install their copies of Windows XP which they own. That way they don't have to pay for Vista and they use XP instead.

But then you say you purchased this particular laptop because it was a good deal.

Yes, Almost $800 in savings is a good deal, should I have thrown those savings away because it comes with an OS I have the right of refusing to use through the EULA it comes with??

Well what does a good deal worth in non-monetary measurements? Nothing. So you saved money by buying a laptop with windows and you say in principle you believe you shouldn't have to pay so much for a computer with windows? It doesn't even make sense because you already paid less

Wrong. I should NOT have to pay for an OS I will not be using. Especially when I have a EULA to use as a legal back up.

Why should MS get my money if I do not use what it offers??

THIS is one of the BIGGEST problems with American consumers. We don't ask questions.

Why is their an EULA?

Because otherwise MS would be flooded with lawsuits. Accepting the damned EULA is the only way MS could get away with forcing someone to use Vista.

Furthermore, no one is forcing you to buy the laptop from lenovo as previously mentioned.

This argument doesn't hold a candle in a court of law sir.
There are market laws and regulations sir, abiding by the EULA is one of them. You can't use something like that as a legal response.

I am being asked to agree to the EULA for a reason you know?

Not only does lenovo offer options without windows, so do many many other manufacturers.

Answer again is in the same
picture

And, quite honestly, no one is forcing you to buy a laptop in the first place.

This isn't a free market. The market is subject to anti-monopoly laws from the government.

You knew what you were buying before hand and it seems you chose to buy that laptop because it was cheap.

Yes people tend to buy bargains as it seems. Surprise??

If it isn't the money you're after, then spend a little more paying for a laptop without windows preinstalled so microsoft doesnt see any of the money from your purchase in the first place.

For the price, this was the best deal around.
If Lenovo wants to give MS the money, I could care less. All I care about, is that my money shouldn't go to lenovo so it could go to MS if I could help it.

If more customers do what I do and think for a second instead of taking it up the pooper. Lenovo would think a million times before accepting to pass on the MS tax from MS to people like me and you.

Or, maybe, it is the money you are concerned with after all, in which case get off of your high horse and admit you are splitting hairs in the EULA to make a quick buck.

No, it's my rights what I am after. I as a citizen have legal rights and if I can get a buck out of applying my full rights, then why the heck not? Is there a shame in it?

Someone is forgetting that I am being forced to buy a product here?

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: Parasitic
This is one of the reasons I really think computer manufacturers should offer an "OS Delete" option on computer purchases. I'd loved to pay $30 less on my Lenovo S10 since the first thing I did when I got the little sucker was to reformat and put Vista on it.

Yes why can't they do that??

Why can't they cancel my activation key?

They can!

Why can't they check if I have activated my OS copy (that would mean accepting the EULA) before issuing a refund and canceling the activation code?


We all know why. Because MS and it's partners need to make money without making products people will demand.

I say no and I have the legal right to throw their crappy product back at them and get my hard earned money back.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: Hacp
I remember HP remedied this by including the price of the OS in your invoice. It amounted to 1 dollar I think.

Are you serious?

Who pays MS then?

HP can't play games like that. It's impossible that MS agreed to sell HP each windows license for $1. If this claim was challenged and it was proven HP was paying the real value from an increase to the price of the system, they could be indicted with more charges than I can think off.

If the Laptop with MS windows and the laptop without it are only $1 in price different as a measure to force people to get windows (granted MS is getting more than $1), if MS is getting more than $1, then that would be a breach of the anti-trust resolutions.

 

[IlllI]

good lord you are annoying

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: IlllI
good lord you are annoying

Annoying?
I didn't start this thread to annoy anyone. I thought it might educate some people who don't KNOW their rights at all. People who are gladly giving MS their money without question whilst the EULA they are agreeing to blindly is screaming at them to read bits of it.

But then the barrage of assumptive crap started and kept coming and I had to make sure all the disinformation was brushed away.

Now if you find that annoying, get out of the thread please and don't come back.

 

[nobb]

This is a completely jackass thing to do.

No one forced you to buy the computer with Vista on it. If you dont agree with the EULA, then return the WHOLE laptop. Consumers are starting to be douchebags these days, expecting too much and trying to squeeze every little bit of what they can. Yes, you have certain rights on paper. But in real life, this isn't an ethical thing to do. Major OEMs pay very little for the OS, it is likely that the refund you are demanding will just end up costing the manufacturer more than they paid.

You aren't making any statement at all. All you are doing is causing unnecessary troubles and stress for the Lenovo CSR and those who have to deal with your petty demands.

 

[unfalliblekrutch]

This isn't a thread about your rights. When you purchased that laptop, you entered into an agreement with lenovo. You pay lenovo x amount of dollars, and in exchange, lenovo ships you a laptop with a specific set of parts, both hardware and software. One of those parts was the included copy of windows. Just as you can't take out one stick of ram, say you won't use it, and mail it back to them for a refund, you can't simply delete windows and get a refund. The microsoft EULA does state that if you disagree, you can contact the manufacturer for a refund, IF APPLICABLE ("If applicable" is a part of the EULA you seem to fail to mention). In your case, it isn't applicable. You didn't pay for windows separately, so you are not entitled to a refund. If you want, I'm sure lenovo has no problem taking back the entire laptop and giving you your money back for all of it.

When you buy an OEM copy of windows, it must be sold with a piece of hardware. If you want to return this OEM copy of windows you just received with your laptop, you need to return it with the hardware it was sold with (the laptop).

Yes, I am aware that some people have been able to extort some money from PC manufacturers by complaining about the "windows tax." This isn't because they are legally obligated to refund the cost of windows, but instead are merely concessions are made because "the customer is always right." But in reality, the customer is wrong.

Again, it doesn't matter how much money lenovo is giving to microsoft as part of your laptop purchase. I'll use the ram analogy again. If samsung agrees to sell lenovo the ram inside your laptop for $30, and lenovo lists it as a $1 upgrade, that is lenovo's choice. You are not entitled to getting either $1 or $30 by taking out the ram and shipping it back to them. You agreed to buy the laptop as a whole, and that is all you are entitled to return.

 

[DarkThinker]

DP