Attempting to get a Refund for not accepting the Windows Vista EULA

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: nobb
This is a completely jackass thing to do.

By allowing MS to take people's money like that is a dumbass thing to do.

I should feel like a dumbass because the EULA brought forth by MS and Lenovo asking for my approval of it didn't get my approval??

No one forced you to buy the computer with Vista on it.

This is an American market, there are American rules to play by and if MS and Lenovo don't like it then why do they have EULA to begin with?

Keep in mind these are procedures that were introduced after the government determined that MS behaves in an anti-competitive manner in the market trying to force consumers to lock themselves into their products.

People like you is exactly why MS makes tons of money with craptastic products.
Just pull your wallet out....don't ask any questions. We don't want to do the "jackass thing to do" now do we?

:laugh:

If you dont agree with the EULA, then return the WHOLE laptop.

The EULA doesn't tell me to.

Consumers are starting to be douchebags these days, expecting too much and trying to squeeze every little bit of what they can.

Yes, it's called not being a dumbass.

You realize the laptop that I purchased....almost every laptop purchased with Vista business can be had for $130 cheaper????


Why in this age of economic crunch should $130 of each such laptop purchase go to MS without the consumer's approval?

If you have a copy of windows at home, why are you NOT allowed to use it instead of being FORCED to get Vista preloaded on it (which you might not want anyways)?

Yes, you have certain rights on paper. But in real life, this isn't an ethical thing to do.

WHAT? LOL
WOW the American consumer is one funny thing I'll tell you that.

Are you forgetting that putting me in a spot where I would have to squeeze $130 out of my own pocket when I don't need to, in this time and day is waaaaay not ethical to begin with?

Major OEMs pay very little for the OS, it is likely that the refund you are demanding will just end up costing the manufacturer more than they paid.

You aren't making any statement at all. All you are doing is causing unnecessary troubles and stress for the Lenovo CSR and those who have to deal with your petty demands.

So what? Lenovo will have to pay me $130? Well, maybe they should start offering a NO WINDOWS option?

Why don't they have that?

Oh yes, I know why, because they are in bed with MS. Should I feel sorry?
NOPE, Hell No.

Poor little Lenovo and their buddies at MS, guaranteeing a Windows Vista sale for +$130 for each laptop so they maintain a healthy relation with Microsoft.

As long as they remain like that, I will remain like that too. Squeezing that money out of them like they do it to me.

The Bottom Line is :

GIVE CONSUMERS THE OPTION TO HAVE NOOO WINDOWS PRE-INSTALLED!
IT'S A NO BRAINER!

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: unfalliblekrutch
This isn't a thread about your rights. When you purchased that laptop, you entered into an agreement with lenovo. You pay lenovo x amount of dollars, and in exchange, lenovo ships you a laptop with a specific set of parts, both hardware and software. One of those parts was the included copy of windows. Just as you can't take out one stick of ram, say you won't use it, and mail it back to them for a refund, you can't simply delete windows and get a refund. The microsoft EULA does state that if you disagree, you can contact the manufacturer for a refund, IF APPLICABLE ("If applicable" is a part of the EULA you seem to fail to mention). In your case, it isn't applicable. You didn't pay for windows separately, so you are not entitled to a refund. If you want, I'm sure lenovo has no problem taking back the entire laptop and giving you your money back for all of it.

When you buy an OEM copy of windows, it must be sold with a piece of hardware. If you want to return this OEM copy of windows you just received with your laptop, you need to return it with the hardware it was sold with (the laptop).

Yes, I am aware that some people have been able to extort some money from PC manufacturers by complaining about the "windows tax." This isn't because they are legally obligated to, but just concessions they may make because "the customer is always right." But in this case, you're wrong.

Again, it doesn't matter how much money lenovo is giving to microsoft as part of your laptop purchase. I'll use the ram analogy again. If samsung agrees to sell lenovo the ram inside your laptop for $30, and lenovo lists it as a $1 upgrade, that is lenovo's choice. You are not entitled to getting either $1 or $30 by taking out the ram and shipping it back to them. You agreed to buy the laptop as a whole, and that is all you are entitled to return.

Your argument is futile here.

Why?

1- Samsung is NOT considered yo have a monopoly on memory sticks by the US government.

2- The Stick of ram is hardware not software

3- Samsung is NOT obliged to have an EULA for me to use my laptop.

There is no EULA to refuse here for the memory.

Case closed

 

[unfalliblekrutch]

DarkThinker: it appears you are set on doing this and refuse to listen to any of the people who have tried to reason with you on this thread. You keep repeating about how you have rights granted by the EULA that entitle you to a refund of $130. First of all, the EULA lists no refund price, merely that you can receive a refund, if applicable. So if you paid no price for the windows, then it is no longer applicable. Unless you want your $0 back, you can't get a refund.

Then you respond, but Lenovo paid microsoft for the windows and you don't like that in principle. Well, then you can either bring your "hard earned dollars" somewhere else and not give it to lenovo, or lenovo can do whatever they want with the money you paid them.

If I am a carpenter and am making a table and I pay a supplier of wood $10 to obtain the raw materials needed to build the table, but you don't like the supplier of wood that I am using, you have the right to buy my table and hold your distaste for my supplier, or you can go find another table made using parts from a different supplier. And if what if everyone who makes good tables uses the same supplier? Either learn how to build a quality table yourself or shut up and just accept reality.

"But the table has no EULA!" Sure it doesn't, but again, please quote where in the EULA it says you can simply return the windows portion for a refund. It doesn't. That portion of the EULA is not relevant because YOU did not purchase windows. Lenovo did.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
The Bottom Line is :

GIVE CONSUMERS THE OPTION TO HAVE NOOO WINDOWS PRE-INSTALLED!
IT'S A NO BRAINER!

They do.

You just chose one that has Windows.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: unfalliblekrutch...
"But the table has no EULA!" Sure it doesn't, but again, please quote where in the EULA it says you can simply return the windows portion for a refund. It doesn't. That portion of the EULA is not relevant because YOU did not purchase windows. Lenovo did.

These are established facts. It has happened here in the US over and over and it has happened in the EU over and over. MS is a monopoly and if it wants to play the game, it must be able to pay the price of extra scrutiny and hardened laws.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
The Bottom Line is :

GIVE CONSUMERS THE OPTION TO HAVE NOOO WINDOWS PRE-INSTALLED!
IT'S A NO BRAINER!

They do.

You just chose one that has Windows.

They do?

Please show me where in Here do they offer me the no Windows option?

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
The Bottom Line is :

GIVE CONSUMERS THE OPTION TO HAVE NOOO WINDOWS PRE-INSTALLED!
IT'S A NO BRAINER!

They do.

You just chose one that has Windows.

They do?

Please show me where in Here do they offer me the no Windows option?

:roll:

I mean are you really suggesting that every single desktop and laptop computer be offered without Windows?

Because I am sure you are well aware that there are other places, other brands, other models, other configurations, which are offered without Windows. So, your posting of one link, one model, that isn't offered without Windows leads me to asking that question.

 

[IlllI]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Annoying?

yes annoying

and i could say if you want to post crap in the forum, save everyone the trouble and dont.

why should we the public be subjected to your dumb stances on 'principle'

 

[boomhower]

Originally posted by: unfalliblekrutch

You knew what you were buying before hand and it seems you chose to buy that laptop because it was cheap. If it isn't the money you're after, then spend a little more paying for a laptop without windows preinstalled so microsoft doesnt see any of the money from your purchase in the first place. Or, maybe, it is the money you are concerned with after all, in which case get off of your high horse and admit you are splitting hairs in the EULA to make a quick buck.

This

I would have cost the OP more to get a machine without MS on it. If you want to be on your high, MS hating, horse then pay the price. Otherwise stop bitching and trying to get an already cheap notebook even cheaper. If its something you feel that strongly about pay for it. If by some chance you get money out of them its not MS your hurting its Lenovo. So instead of hurting the big bad software maker you hate so much you will in fact be hurting the maker of the notebooks you love so much taking away from their bottom line and ability to improve the product you love so much.

You would fit right in on the slickdeals forums.

 

[unfalliblekrutch]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: unfalliblekrutch...
"But the table has no EULA!" Sure it doesn't, but again, please quote where in the EULA it says you can simply return the windows portion for a refund. It doesn't. That portion of the EULA is not relevant because YOU did not purchase windows. Lenovo did.

These are established facts. It has happened here in the US over and over and it has happened in the EU over and over. MS is a monopoly and if it wants to play the game, it must be able to pay the price of extra scrutiny and hardened laws.

The courts never establish facts, merely opinions. Court opinions can easily be reversed by a new court opinion. Furthermore, a declaration that Microsoft is a monopoly doesn't mean you are entitled to a refund. That is one of the largest stretches of imagination I've seen in awhile. If you can somehow logically connect how being a monopoly directly leads to a requirement for a firm that utilizes the monopoly's product as an input to give refunds based on a transferred license to an end user who didn't pay the monopoly money to begin with, please do tell.

 

[nobb]

^^ This is very true. You are not going to hurt Microsoft at all by doing this. Chances are, if you pursue this further, you will probably get your money back. But do you honestly think that by requesting a refund from Lenovo, then in turn Lenovo will take the money from Microsoft? They will probably just pay you out from their own pockets to shut you up. Lenovo doesn't have time for this BS and Microsoft doesn't lose a penny. Seriously, I think all Microsoft/Linux/Mac fanboys need to get off their high horse sometimes...

 

[DarkThinker]

^^^ Is it my fault that there are no options FROM LENOVO with no windows.

I am a customer and I buy my stuff from Lenovo. Lenovo doesn't want to offer me a no windows option, they instead give me a EULA and say, if you don't like windows let us now you don't agree with the EULA.

So I do that. How does that make me mr bad man?

I understand Lenovo might pay out of pocket, but I want Lenovo to notice that they need to offer options for customers that don't want Windows and especially Vista.


Just think how easy it would have been to offer people a no windows option on their own responsibility.


Why do they have me jump through all those EULA hoops?


And for those saying I am on a high horse./...I guess I am. Either you guys get on your horses too and start defending your consumer rights, or stay down there and don't bug me with your lack of awareness to legal matters here in the US

 

[boomhower]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Just think how easy it would have been to offer people a no windows option on their own responsibility.

Because the cost to R&D a Linux option is much greater than the amount of money they would make off the 10 people that would want it. I will agree that it would make sense to offer a version with no OS at all, it doesn't really cost them anything and would keep people like you happy. But seriously, you are talking about $30-$50. My time is worth more than that to try and fight for that money back. You keep spouting $130, the OS on that machine isn't worth that much. You can't honestly expect them to refund you more than what they paid for it.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: boomhower

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Just think how easy it would have been to offer people a no windows option on their own responsibility.

Because the cost to R&D a Linux option is much greater than the amount of money they would make off the 10 people that would want it.

I am not asking for that, I can do without them. But they have done it in the past, Dell is doing it and it isn't what you think it is.

For instance, I installed Fedora 11 on my X200, Everything worked out of the box. Heck, even the AT&T 3G Modem did too. But what I really want is a no OS option. That is the cheapest they could and should do.

I will agree that it would make sense to offer a version with no OS at all, it doesn't really cost them anything and would keep people like you happy.

Yes, why don't they?
Don't you ask yourself that question?
You think Microsoft has nothing to do with that??

MS twists the arms of OEMs to not do that. And if not twist, they show them financial rewards through discounts and what not to not do that.

But seriously, you are talking about $30-$50. My time is worth more than that to try and fight for that money back.

You see that is where you and I differ.

Why do you ignore something like that?

Just think how much money that is for the vendors combined each year?

Does that make sense to you that people in this country should stay silent of this indirect theft??

That is why it fills me with rage that in 2009 we are still suffering from the harassment of MS when it comes to buying from vendors like Lenovo, HP ...etc

You keep spouting $130, the OS on that machine isn't worth that much.

Oh yes it IS

You can't honestly expect them to refund you more than what they paid for it.

No I expect them to offer me what it cost me. But what I don't expect them to do, is them accepting to do it without NDA.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
The Bottom Line is :

GIVE CONSUMERS THE OPTION TO HAVE NOOO WINDOWS PRE-INSTALLED!
IT'S A NO BRAINER!

They do.

You just chose one that has Windows.

They do?

Please show me where in Here do they offer me the no Windows option?

:roll:

I mean are you really suggesting that every single desktop and laptop computer be offered without Windows?

Sir, I have inspected every laptop configuration on Lenovo's site.
There isn't a single laptop being offered with anything but windows!

Because I am sure you are well aware that there are other places,

Well sure there are other places. But I have been buying from Lenovo for a long time and that's where my money goes. I have purchased about half a dozen ThinkPads from Lenovo so far. Additionally, I have always been able to get better deals through Lenovo then other places.

Additionally, the hardware support of Lenovo is outstanding, why should I go to other places I am not sure about and especially if the best deal is at Lenovo's?

other brands, other models, other configurations, which are offered without Windows.

I can't go to other brands. Thinkpad design is the best I have come across, I have tried too many laptops before, Thinkpad design is where it's at, hardware and form. Espcecially the ultranav. I have not come across a single laptop that can compete with the quality of the Ultranav configuration.

Dell made on laptop that was close, bu the quality was not up to that of the Thinkpads, especially the Keyboard and Trackpoint alternative.

So, your posting of one link, one model, that isn't offered without Windows leads me to asking that question.

Well, check it out for your own self. Lenovo has no non-Windows solution on their entire lineup. And as far as I know, not even the outlet is safe from the MS domination. There might be something out there, but I haven't spotted a non_Windows lenovo there either.

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
^^^ Is it my fault that there are no options FROM LENOVO with no windows.

I am a customer and I buy my stuff from Lenovo. Lenovo doesn't want to offer me a no windows option, they instead give me a EULA and say, if you don't like windows let us now you don't agree with the EULA.

So I do that. How does that make me mr bad man?

I understand Lenovo might pay out of pocket, but I want Lenovo to notice that they need to offer options for customers that don't want Windows and especially Vista.


Just think how easy it would have been to offer people a no windows option on their own responsibility.


Why do they have me jump through all those EULA hoops?


And for those saying I am on a high horse./...I guess I am. Either you guys get on your horses too and start defending your consumer rights, or stay down there and don't bug me with your lack of awareness to legal matters here in the US

So you're asking Levano to hire a shitload of people for linux support just so you personally can buy a linux machine? The linux machine will probably be more expensive cause of economies of scale.

 

[coolVariable]

NEWSFLASH: Nobody forced you to buy from Lenovo!!!
If you don't like the products they sell, don't buy them, you moron!

Please lenovo, give him a $0 refund and revoke your Windows license!
And I hope they blacklist you, so you can never ever buy from Lenovo again.
FYI- if anyone from Lenovo reads this thread (and I sure hope they do): PLEASE DON'T REWARD IDIOCY!!!

Hey, moron. why don't you buy an iphone and then complain to apple that you want to run Android and want a refund!

The retardation of some people is just unbelievable!

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
^^^ Is it my fault that there are no options FROM LENOVO with no windows.

I am a customer and I buy my stuff from Lenovo. Lenovo doesn't want to offer me a no windows option, they instead give me a EULA and say, if you don't like windows let us now you don't agree with the EULA.

So I do that. How does that make me mr bad man?

I understand Lenovo might pay out of pocket, but I want Lenovo to notice that they need to offer options for customers that don't want Windows and especially Vista.


Just think how easy it would have been to offer people a no windows option on their own responsibility.


Why do they have me jump through all those EULA hoops?


And for those saying I am on a high horse./...I guess I am. Either you guys get on your horses too and start defending your consumer rights, or stay down there and don't bug me with your lack of awareness to legal matters here in the US

So you're asking Levano to hire a shitload of people for linux support just so you personally can buy a linux machine? The linux machine will probably be more expensive cause of economies of scale.

Nope, you must have missed me saying it like a dozen times already in here.

I want a NO OS option.

Now if they decide something like a preloaded Linux with no support, I wouldn't say no to that either. But No OS would just do for everyone.

Because most of those who will get a NO OS option, would either be skillful enough to know how to put their own on there, or have someone who would do it for them.

 

[IlllI]

how many more hours are you going to spend arguing a retarded point just b/c of some skewed principle

there are (hopefully) better things you can do with your life and time than this

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: coolVariable
NEWSFLASH: Nobody forced you to buy from Lenovo!!!
If you don't like the products they sell, don't buy them, you moron!

Please lenovo, give him a $0 refund and revoke your Windows license!
And I hope they blacklist you, so you can never ever buy from Lenovo again.
FYI- if anyone from Lenovo reads this thread (and I sure hope they do): PLEASE DON'T REWARD IDIOCY!!!

Hey, moron. why don't you buy an iphone and then complain to apple that you want to run Android and want a refund!

The retardation of some people is just unbelievable!

NEWSFLASH

You are the moron who knows nothing about the legal background of this conflict.
So either educate yourself on the matter, or get the hell out my thread :frown:

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: IlllI
how many more hours are you going to spend arguing a retarded point just b/c of some skewed principle

there are (hopefully) better things you can do with your life and time than this

Ya like being an average US consumer whodoesn't read the legal agreements he agrees to?

I am trying to educate people on the matter and get some debate going, but all I am getting are dumbasses who drop one liner insults and run away.

The issue is of importance to me as a software person, that's why I have put alot of time into this very debate.


But it seems this thread is heading towards being locked since people can't debate without insulting me I guess.

Oh well, I tried...

 

[unfalliblekrutch]

Look, OP, you're the one calling others ignorant for "not understanding the legal background." Believe it or not, there is NO legal background to understand. No request for a windows refund has gone to court, so there is no legal background for the issue. Sure, microsoft has gone to court for antitrust issues, but that is in no way related to you deserving a refund for something you did not pay for. And sure, some people have gotten refunds, but it wasn't out of legal obligation.

Again, you keep saying you bought a laptop from lenovo because they make the best laptops. Agreed. And part of the laptops they make is microsoft windows. Why is microsoft windows included on every thinkpad? it doesn't matter. It could be because of financial incentives. It could be because they just are too lazy to add a "No OS" option. It could be because the CEO of lenovo specifically knew you would want a "No OS" option and he wanted to personally inconvenience you. The fact of the matter is, no matter what the reason for lenovo's business decision was, it is their decision to make. You, then, have the right to buy their product, or choose not to. You even have a right to buy their product, then modify it to suit your own desires. You do not have a right to buy it, remove part of the product they sold you, and expect them to give you a partial refund for ripping out a part of the product you knew you were paying for going in.

You might think it's immoral or perhaps outright illegal for microsoft to give financial incentives for lenovo only offering windows laptops. You may be right. And you're welcome to litigate microsoft for those business practicies or bring such practices to the attention of the governments that have the ability to charge microsoft with anti-trust concerns. And if the outcome of those court proceedings results in a requirement that microsoft's hardware partners cannot receive financial incentives for not offering competing products, then you win. And at that point, you can buy the laptop you want with the OS (or lack thereof) you want. However, short of doing that, what you're trying to do as far as gaining a personal refund for a bundled product has the backing of neither principle nor legal grounding. IANAL, but it may actually constitute something more like mail fraud. If you get anything out of your endeavors, understand that in the eyes of most rational people, your actions will be viewed as immoral and self-serving.

In my opinion, you are worse than the microsoft you claim to hate.

 

[unfalliblekrutch]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: IlllI
how many more hours are you going to spend arguing a retarded point just b/c of some skewed principle

there are (hopefully) better things you can do with your life and time than this

Ya like being an average US consumer whodoesn't read the legal agreements he agrees to?

I am trying to educate people on the matter and get some debate going, but all I am getting are dumbasses who drop one liner insults and run away.

The issue is of importance to me as a software person, that's why I have put alot of time into this very debate.


But it seems this thread is heading towards being locked since people can't debate without insulting me I guess.

Oh well, I tried...

I have responded with reasonable objections to your points and you have basically ignored or twisted all of my points. If you want a legitimate discussion on this topic, then you are the one being dodgy.

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: DarkThinker

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: DarkThinker
^^^ Is it my fault that there are no options FROM LENOVO with no windows.

I am a customer and I buy my stuff from Lenovo. Lenovo doesn't want to offer me a no windows option, they instead give me a EULA and say, if you don't like windows let us now you don't agree with the EULA.

So I do that. How does that make me mr bad man?

I understand Lenovo might pay out of pocket, but I want Lenovo to notice that they need to offer options for customers that don't want Windows and especially Vista.


Just think how easy it would have been to offer people a no windows option on their own responsibility.


Why do they have me jump through all those EULA hoops?


And for those saying I am on a high horse./...I guess I am. Either you guys get on your horses too and start defending your consumer rights, or stay down there and don't bug me with your lack of awareness to legal matters here in the US

So you're asking Levano to hire a shitload of people for linux support just so you personally can buy a linux machine? The linux machine will probably be more expensive cause of economies of scale.

Nope, you must have missed me saying it like a dozen times already in here.

I want a NO OS option.

Now if they decide something like a preloaded Linux with no support, I wouldn't say no to that either. But No OS would just do for everyone.

Because most of those who will get a NO OS option, would either be skillful enough to know how to put their own on there, or have someone who would do it for them.

No OS means no support which means no warranty.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: unfalliblekrutch
Look, OP, you're the one calling others ignorant for "not understanding the legal background."

Well he called me a moron, I did the least thing and told him why he is calling me a moron while I am not. Don't make it look like I started insulting others.

Believe it or not, there is NO legal background to understand. No request for a windows refund has gone to court, so there is no legal background for the issue.

Jeeeezuz

Why do you guys keep saying stuff like you have records of every single case that has passed through a US court to date?

Here is a detailed and documented case in California for a guy who refused the EULA, proceeded to installing Linux on his system instead and demanded $199 + Court fees for Windows XP refund

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7040

Judge: The defendant didn't show up, but Mr. Oualline you still have to prove your case. You say that they owe you some money. Why?

Me: I bought a computer from them, and when I booted it up it displayed a license agreement with a long list of restrictions that limited what I could do with my computer. It also said that if I didn't agree with the license agreement, I could get a refund.

Judge: I take it you didn't get your refund.

Me: They sent me an e-mail yesterday offering me one, but it was only for the software. I want my court costs too.

The judge then fumbled through my papers looking for the printout of the refund letter. He found it.

Judge: You removed the software from your system.

Me: Yes.

Judge: You installed something else.

Me: I installed Linux.

Judge: Judgment for the plaintiff.

Sure, Microsoft has gone to court for anti-trust issues, but that is in no way related to you deserving a refund for something you did not pay for.

Yes I havepaid for Vista don't kid yourself. Vista Business doesn't come for free.

And sure, some people have gotten refunds, but it wasn't out of legal obligation.

Again you are assuming you know all the cases that have passed.

again I refer you to the same link:
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7040

Again, you keep saying you bought a laptop from lenovo because they make the best laptops. Agreed.

Yes they make good laptops out and what's left to make them perfect laptops is having the option of not having to pay for Vista to get one from Lenovo. That would be sweet don't you think?

Let those who want Vista get Vista and those who don't not. Very simple logic that I follow.

And part of the laptops they make is microsoft windows. Why is microsoft windows included on every thinkpad? it doesn't matter. It could be because of financial incentives. It could be because they just are too lazy to add a "No OS" option. It could be because the CEO of lenovo specifically knew you would want a "No OS" option and he wanted to personally inconvenience you. The fact of the matter is, no matter what the reason for lenovo's business decision was, it is their decision to make. You, then, have the right to buy their product, or choose not to.

This isn't a free economy.
Microsoft has restrictions on who's arms it can twist and how much it can do so.

You even have a right to buy their product, then modify it to suit your own desires.

Really?

Microsoft says on the CD itself I don't have the legal right to make more than one copy of said CD. But I paid for the CD....but then you would jump in and say "You are restricted by the EULA that is why DK" and then that's when I would tell you "Well the EULA also says I have the right to a refund too, but somehow that doesn't count when I ask for one..."

You do not have a right to buy it, remove part of the product they sold you, and expect them to give you a partial refund for ripping out a part of the product you knew you were paying for going in.

Oh yes I do. Court cases prove it.

You might think it's immoral or perhaps outright illegal for microsoft to give financial incentives for lenovo only offering windows laptops. You may be right. And you're welcome to litigate microsoft for those business practicies or bring such practices to the attention of the governments that have the ability to charge microsoft with anti-trust concerns. And if the outcome of those court proceedings results in a requirement that microsoft's hardware partners cannot receive financial incentives for not offering competing products, then you win. And at that point, you can buy the laptop you want with the OS (or lack thereof) you want. However, short of doing that, what you're trying to do as far as gaining a personal refund for a bundled product has the backing of neither principle nor legal grounding. IANAL, but it may actually constitute something more like mail fraud. If you get anything out of your endeavors, understand that in the eyes of most rational people, your actions will be viewed as immoral and self-serving.

If a people view Microsoft's arm twisting of consumers and OEMs as anything other than self serving, then the last thing I would think about is how such people see my actions as pure and simple.

It's really funny, the same people that are having their precious little dollars discretely taken away from them are the ones defending the not greedy at all MS.

You tell me, if MS made an announcement to everyone telling them that they can get the full cost of each windows copy they don't agree to it's EULA back, how many would reconsider using Windows to begin with.

People would start looking at alternatives, either it's their own copies of the software or free software, or non-microsoft-non-free-software and that's why MS stays quiet about this and asks people to sign NDAs to not say a word about it.

Why on earth do companies like Lenovo and MS ask people to sign NDA's if what they are doing is right?

That is bull all the way.

In my opinion, you are worse than the microsoft you claim to hate.

There he goes again.

The practices of MS put me in a position of either buying a laptop with windows Vista or not buying a laptop at all from my favorite vendor.

MS uses it's position in the market through many tricky practices to have OEMs offer nothing but their solutions. Is it a surprise I got a laptop with Vista preloaded?

If I desire not to take their solution I am SOL and I will have to go elsewhere. I shouldn't have to, not when it's MS we are talking about.

I have paid for Windows and I WANT that money back.

Why do I want it back? Is it because some ~ $100+ is worth all of this??

Hell no!

But because it's my right and companies don't have the right to force me into paying up like that.

And I want people to know that they can do that. I want people to wake up and realize these practices and stop them in their lives.