Audigy 4 Launched

[Pariah]

The Audigy 4 does not resample everything to 48kHz, I don't know where all you people are getting this. Previous Audigy generations only supported 48kHz and 96kHz output through the SPDIF out, so everything that was digitally sent out HAD to be resampled to 48kHz or 96kHz depending on the initial sampling rate. Here are the Audigy 4 specs:

"Supports Sony/Philips Digital Interface (SPDIF) format of up to 24-bit/96 kHz quality. Selectable sampling rate of 44.1, 48 or 96 kHz"

With the now supported 44.1 sampling rate, there is no reason for the card to resample cd quality audio when digitally output. One of the Asian Creative sites also mentioned the removal of "unnecessary" resampling and bypassing the kmixer.

 

[sharkeeper]

"Supports Sony/Philips Digital Interface (SPDIF) format of up to 24-bit/96 kHz quality. Selectable sampling rate of 44.1, 48 or 96 kHz"

Well this is true. That's what I get for not installing the control to change it. I set the sampling rate to 96k and my DAC confirms a 96k rate.

Now when will they release an AES/BU output card with a 2MHz sample rate? Or at least give us balanced outputs on the BOB.

Cheers!

 

[konakona]

Originally posted by: Oyeve
I was at Compusa yesterday and they have a few new "professional" Creative labs cards there. With Optical in and out, a couple of different breakouts. They call it E-MU.

i am not sure if your reply is supposed to contain sarcasm, but FYI emu has been around for a very long time, it just happened so that creative bought them out and still uses that label to sell professional cards. my guess is the image that goes with the brand name 'creative' is not synonymous to quality in the professional world.
EMU-1212M and EMU-0404 actually use the same DSP chips as audigy. yet they sound vastly different, different circuitry and drivers (none of that nasty 48khz resampling bs on emu cards) all contribute dramatic difference in perceived sound quality.

 

[BFG10K]

I blame microsoft for the current lack of competition.

That's ironic given Microsoft's DirectX was solely responsible for breaking the Soundblaster monopoly during the DOS/Win16 days. Thanks to it any vendor could come along and implement DirectX compliant drivers.

If developers choose to use EAX that's neither Microsoft's or Creative's fault.

 

[Acanthus]

If its a true SNR increase of that magnitude there would be a dramatic increase in quality. Remember that SNR and distortion measurements are NOT linear.

It would take a damn nice set of speakers and/or a very good reciever and professional audio system to be able to realize 150db+.

 

[magomago]

why 150+db? That will destroy your hearing...There is a physical limit to "louder is better"

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: magomago
why 150+db? That will destroy your hearing...There is a physical limit to "louder is better"

Its a harmonic distortion measurment, not a max volume measurement.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

I blame microsoft for the current lack of competition.

That's ironic given Microsoft's DirectX was solely responsible for breaking the Soundblaster monopoly during the DOS/Win16 days. Thanks to it any vendor could come along and implement DirectX compliant drivers.

If developers choose to use EAX that's neither Microsoft's or Creative's fault.

Yes, it indeed is quite ironic.

Developers choose to use EAX for the same reason they choose to use DX9 over DX6. They want to bring the best out they can. Unfortunately, DS3D is WAAAAAY behind the times, leaving them with no choice but to use the only thing available that is something more than rudimentary 3d sound, which leaves only EAX Advanced HD.

None of this would be a problem if creative didnt suck. But if aureal didnt die off, we would probably have a unified standard now like dx, because 2 proprietary systems is even worse than one.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Well, couldn't PC game makers just create a DD 5.1 or other track for the game instead of using EAX?

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: Pariah
The Audigy 4 does not resample everything to 48kHz, I don't know where all you people are getting this. Previous Audigy generations only supported 48kHz and 96kHz output through the SPDIF out, so everything that was digitally sent out HAD to be resampled to 48kHz or 96kHz depending on the initial sampling rate.
...
With the now supported 44.1 sampling rate, there is no reason for the card to resample cd quality audio when digitally output. One of the Asian Creative sites also mentioned the removal of "unnecessary" resampling and bypassing the kmixer.

There's actually two seperate resampling issues there - one in the Audigy hardware, and one with MS's software kmixer stuff. AFAIK, all prior Audigy cards had to resample the input to 48Khz, and they locked the analog output DAC's sample-rate to 48Khz, so there was no way to avoid the hardware-level resampling. Avoiding MS's kmixer resampling requires a driver set that provides an alternate path for the audio data to bypass that.

 

[lazybum131]

Originally posted by: darkswordsman17
Well, couldn't PC game makers just create a DD 5.1 or other track for the game instead of using EAX?

That's like playing an audio CD and then expecting the sounds played from the CD to match what you actually do in a game.

 

[Zulan]

Originally posted by: Pariah
The Audigy 4 does not resample everything to 48kHz, I don't know where all you people are getting this. Previous Audigy generations only supported 48kHz and 96kHz output through the SPDIF out, so everything that was digitally sent out HAD to be resampled to 48kHz or 96kHz depending on the initial sampling rate. Here are the Audigy 4 specs:

"Supports Sony/Philips Digital Interface (SPDIF) format of up to 24-bit/96 kHz quality. Selectable sampling rate of 44.1, 48 or 96 kHz"

With the now supported 44.1 sampling rate, there is no reason for the card to resample cd quality audio when digitally output. One of the Asian Creative sites also mentioned the removal of "unnecessary" resampling and bypassing the kmixer.

I have the Audigy 2 NX USB soundcard, and I can choose 44.1 output using SPDIF and my receiver seems to verify that its actually 44.1. But from what I've head from another forum is that my Audigy 2 card actually first get the 44.1, but then convert it to 48 no matter what. So if I choose 44.1 output it first resample to 48, then resamples it back to 44.1. From what I've head Creative did this in order to get EAX to work. It would be nice if someone could comfirm or deny these facts.

 

[CKTurbo128]

Originally posted by: Zulan

Originally posted by: Pariah
The Audigy 4 does not resample everything to 48kHz, I don't know where all you people are getting this. Previous Audigy generations only supported 48kHz and 96kHz output through the SPDIF out, so everything that was digitally sent out HAD to be resampled to 48kHz or 96kHz depending on the initial sampling rate. Here are the Audigy 4 specs:

"Supports Sony/Philips Digital Interface (SPDIF) format of up to 24-bit/96 kHz quality. Selectable sampling rate of 44.1, 48 or 96 kHz"

With the now supported 44.1 sampling rate, there is no reason for the card to resample cd quality audio when digitally output. One of the Asian Creative sites also mentioned the removal of "unnecessary" resampling and bypassing the kmixer.

I have the Audigy 2 NX USB soundcard, and I can choose 44.1 output using SPDIF and my receiver seems to verify that its actually 44.1. But from what I've head from another forum is that my Audigy 2 card actually first get the 44.1, but then convert it to 48 no matter what. So if I choose 44.1 output it first resample to 48, then resamples it back to 44.1. From what I've head Creative did this in order to get EAX to work. It would be nice if someone could comfirm or deny these facts.

Yes, this is true. All Audigy series (including Audigy 4), resample to 48KHz and back down to 44.1KHz. The Audigy 2 NX, despite what it says, does indeed resample, but it does so in the drivers, not hardware like it's desktop brothers. Of all the Audigys, only the Audigy 4 manages to sound decent for music listening, due to the higher-quality DACs it is using. Here are some useful links about resampling in the Audigy series:

http://www.3dsoundsurge.com/reviews/Audigy4Pro/audigy4pro-p4.html
http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=86094
http://www.gamingforce.com/forums/showthread.php?t=489&page=1&pp=25
http://www.3dss-forums.com/cgi-bin/wwwt...age=5&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=365&fpart=

The audiophiles at Head-fi.org absolutely dislike the Audigy series because of the resampling. The mere mention of the card erks people over there. It's sometimes called the "Sound Blaster Mangler".

 

[konakona]

i dunno if i heard that term before, maybe i just havnt been around there for long enough. but it is true audigy is largely frowned upon for quality music listening, and there is a good reason for it. give yourself a listen to EMU 1212M/0404 series for an eye opening experience, provided you have sufficiently good gear to go with it (HDD-650 / PPX3-6CG7 in my case)

 

[ribbon13]

Creative has no competition? Whose ESI, M-Audio, and Audiotrack?

And don't give me that "those are pro cards and games blah blah" crap. Few games utilize 3d to great extent, and the ones that do would be better off with digital out to a surround sound decoder, seperate or reciever.

 

[CKTurbo128]

I just wish that there was 1 single sound card that performs excellently for both music and gaming, instead of having sound cards that is excellent for gaming, but is subpar for music (i.e. Audigy series) or sound cards that have subpar gaming support, but excellent music quality (E-MU, M-Audio).

 

[tiap]

Originally posted by: Gnoad
The sound card industry needs more competition. I own an audigy because I basically have to...

If you gave me a new audigy, I would sell it cheap. There are more preferrable solutions out there.

ribbon13 is on the right track

 

[Zulan]

As I already mentioned I have the Audigy 2 NX USB card. But I really am a bit of a audiophile, even though I do like it to be conveniant. The remote of the Audigy 2 nx is very conveniant. But the sound is not up to par compared to my regular cd player. I am hoping it's beacuse of the resampling. Is your recomendation to get myself some other USB solution, or maybe I should wait for a Audigy 4 USB thing to come out, maybe they have solved that problem by then? Is there a E-MU USB card?

 

[Gannon]

Sound card innovation died because theres not much to innovate. The PC game market getting smaller, video card sales shrinking, I dont see what the point is in having anything beyond Sb live or Audigy 1, unless you are a music freak. There's just not a lot of money to go into R&D sound cards like Aureal was trying to do, the fact that Aureal failed shows how important most people think sound hardware is: It's already more then they need, no game or application stresses the soundcard anymore. Most people get all their other entertainment from other devices so the only place Audio has on the computer is listening to music and gaming. If these cards were half as bad at sound reproduction as some freaks here think it is people would return it in droves.

 

[Zulan]

Gannon, I think you are very wrong on several points. I think it?s going the exact opposite direction as you believe. PC game market might be getting smaller right now. This can change any second depending on what happens with HTPC, once theres a HTPC in every Joes home, PC gaming will be blooming.

If you don?t see the point of having anything beyond SB live, then you probably haven?t listened to a SB live connected to a good system. If you are not a music freak, then you don?t care anyway, so you can?t really measure how a soundcard performs to someone who doesn?t care.

You say that most people get their entertainment from other devices. Yes, they did that yesterday and some still do it today. But right now there?s a huge growing market with HTPC (Home Theatre Personal Computers) and the whole idea of them is to have all your home entertainment coming out of one box. In this regard, audio has a central roll.

So putting a little money in soundcard development to please audiophiles might not sound as bad idea.

 

[Gannon]

Originally posted by: Zulan
Gannon, I think you are very wrong on several points. I think it?s going the exact opposite direction as you believe. PC game market might be getting smaller right now. This can change any second depending on what happens with HTPC, once theres a HTPC in every Joes home, PC gaming will be blooming.

If you don?t see the point of having anything beyond SB live, then you probably haven?t listened to a SB live connected to a good system. If you are not a music freak, then you don?t care anyway, so you can?t really measure how a soundcard performs to someone who doesn?t care.

You say that most people get their entertainment from other devices. Yes, they did that yesterday and some still do it today. But right now there?s a huge growing market with HTPC (Home Theatre Personal Computers) and the whole idea of them is to have all your home entertainment coming out of one box. In this regard, audio has a central roll.

So putting a little money in soundcard development to please audiophiles might not sound as bad idea.

I dont think I'm wrong at all, you have to remember that the masses aren't the people visiting anandtech, they are joe mom and pop with integrated sound or good old standby Sblive and audigy or "whatevers the cheapest". The "theater PC" may take off but only time will tell and even then that wont be for gamers. You'd never hear a console gamer arguing about the sound system inside his console because SOUND just doesn't matter. I'd be willing to bet that the old cranky Sb live is better what they have in modern consoles and way more people own them then say top of the line soundcards I'd wager.

I believe computing will penetrate everywhere eventually but you have to take a long hard look at culture: i.e. Japan vs the US, say as an example. Masses of people in Japan have TV's and eletronic stuff way more advanced then your average family in the US.

For audiophiles maybe, but as an Audigy owner and having to live with a family there is simply no way I can turn up movies and music and then blast it at volumes where I'd notice quality degredation. I seriously think audiophiles are in the minority. Aureal tried to do 3D sound and they could have went for the audiophile market too like others and they still ended up broke as ever.

As gamer it has no effect on me, if they want to sell soundcards they should do something about the FPS hit you get when you turn sound on. As it is in movies and in games, they spend the least amount of money on sound for a reason. The quality reaches a level where its more then adequate for the majority of listeners, you only need high end stuff to do the initial recordings and then you can downsample/re-sample from a "perfect" sample.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Originally posted by: Gannon

Originally posted by: Zulan
Gannon, I think you are very wrong on several points. I think it?s going the exact opposite direction as you believe. PC game market might be getting smaller right now. This can change any second depending on what happens with HTPC, once theres a HTPC in every Joes home, PC gaming will be blooming.

If you don?t see the point of having anything beyond SB live, then you probably haven?t listened to a SB live connected to a good system. If you are not a music freak, then you don?t care anyway, so you can?t really measure how a soundcard performs to someone who doesn?t care.

You say that most people get their entertainment from other devices. Yes, they did that yesterday and some still do it today. But right now there?s a huge growing market with HTPC (Home Theatre Personal Computers) and the whole idea of them is to have all your home entertainment coming out of one box. In this regard, audio has a central roll.

So putting a little money in soundcard development to please audiophiles might not sound as bad idea.

I dont think I'm wrong at all, you have to remember that the masses aren't the people visiting anandtech, they are joe mom and pop with integrated sound or good old standby Sblive and audigy or "whatevers the cheapest". The "theater PC" may take off but only time will tell and even then that wont be for gamers. You'd never hear a console gamer arguing about the sound system inside his console because SOUND just doesn't matter. I'd be willing to bet that the old cranky Sb live is better what they have in modern consoles and way more people own them then say top of the line soundcards I'd wager.

I believe computing will penetrate everywhere eventually but you have to take a long hard look at culture: i.e. Japan vs the US, say as an example. Masses of people in Japan have TV's and eletronic stuff way more advanced then your average family in the US.

For audiophiles maybe, but as an Audigy owner and having to live with a family there is simply no way I can turn up movies and music and then blast it at volumes where I'd notice quality degredation. I seriously think audiophiles are in the minority. Aureal tried to do 3D sound and they could have went for the audiophile market too like others and they still ended up broke as ever.

As gamer it has no effect on me, if they want to sell soundcards they should do something about the FPS hit you get when you turn sound on. As it is in movies and in games, they spend the least amount of money on sound for a reason. The quality reaches a level where its more then adequate for the majority of listeners, you only need high end stuff to do the initial recordings and then you can downsample/re-sample from a "perfect" sample.

The Xbox uses nVidia's soundstorm which is better than SB live. The problem with computers is that the majority of users, even a majority of gamers, do not have their computers hooked up any sort of elaborate sound system, the rooms they have their computers in probably do not allow for a proper surround setup. Many gamers often resort to headphones even, especially if their computer has loud fans that often fight against speakers on all but the fairly loud to loudest volumes.

Games could definatley bennefit from advanced implimentation of sounds, imagine a Doom 3 like game where you'd be forced to heavily rely on where sounds are coming from to stay alive or be successful in a game. Consoles fair better because they are often accompanied by a home theater setup in a room already setup for a proper surround sound effect. HTPCs would benefit the same way as Zulan mentioned. If we could get some really really solid USB controllers going for PC, it'd be incredibly awesome if we started to see some platform type games you rarely see on PC that are pretty much the corner stone to console gaming.

Kinda funny, its possible we may see more of a merge between consoles and PCs, where consoles are becoming more and more PC-like, and PCs more and more console or set-top box like with the HTPC, heck I'd read some early speculation that there will be a version of "Xbox2" released later on that will basically be able to also function as a PC.

 

[Gannon]

The Xbox uses nVidia's soundstorm which is better than SB live.

I bet if we took an original sample wav sound from an Xbox game and play it through and Sblive and then through an xbox, they couldn't tell the difference!

any gamers often resort to headphones even, especially if their computer has loud fans that often fight against speakers on all but the fairly loud to loudest volumes.

Exactly but headphones make it even easier to detect quality differences because of the isolation. I can really hear pops and hisses in poorly sampled MP3's on my headphones much easier then I can over speakers of a fair volume.

If we could get some really really solid USB controllers going for PC, it'd be incredibly awesome if we started to see some platform type games you rarely see on PC that are pretty much the corner stone to console gaming.

There are good controllers for the PC, you just need to buy a 10-20$ driverless adapter for your console gamepad of choice. I use the PS2 Dual shock controller and haven't bothered with the crummy quality of PC game controllers ever since.

Kinda funny, its possible we may see more of a merge between consoles and PCs, where consoles are becoming more and more PC-like, and PCs more and more console or set-top box like with the HTPC, heck I'd read some early speculation that there will be a version of "Xbox2" released later on that will basically be able to also function as a PC.

Maybe but unless consoles get a mouse and keyboard I dont see PC gaming going away totally for now. Since RTS and FPS is still pretty big on the PC. It might though, you never know, and that would give me no reason to come to anandtech anymore. One of the only reasons I come to anand is to get the latest info for equipment related to PC gaming, and maybe the odd review of new or state of certain technologies so I know where the bugs are. and what to avoid. Since many mediocre PC products are allowed to be released more then quality ones unfortunately.

 

[Chadder007]

Originally posted by: Linux23
i'm fine with my original SB16.

Im fine with my onboard Realtek sound.

 

[Oyeve]

I consider myself an audiophile, which is why I have a denon 7.1 reciever and JBL monitors and Infinity reference speakers hooked up to my PC, even my turntable is on my PC so I can make MP3s of my large hard to find vinyl collection. The SB 2 ZS is just fine for me as long as I mute all but wave and master volume. Whatever sound glitches that it emits my equalizer fixes. I know there are sound cards out there that are of audiophile quality but I am perfectly happy with the ZS. I use the digital out so the sound is just fine, not perfect, but more than good enough. No good PC game controllers? I have the original Logitech Rumblepad and the Rumblepad II and these are great controllers. I have used the Rumblepad for nearly 4 years pratically every single day and it is still working. I only got the newer rumble pad because I have worn smooth the plastic on the two analog controllers on the first rumblepad. In contrast to the PS2 controllers, I have only had a PS2 for 6 months and have gone thru 2 controllers already, they are crap, IMO.