Auto repair myths

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: foghorn67
Myth: Warming up the car will ensure everything is well lubricated on startup.
Exception: EXTREME cold weather.

With today's oils, there's really no reason to warm the car up at all. By the time your engine catches and you can physically let go of the key, the oil is everywhere that the pump pushes it to.
As you said, unless in extreme cold, you can start it and drive it like you stole it with no repercussions.

I've talked to a couple of Ford engineers that agreed with me on this when I was trying to get this argument settled.

I really don't know about that. You're going to have a hard time convincing me to go full throttle before the car is fully warmed up. Hell, my car wont even let me near redline until its half warmed up, and even then, I have my doubts that its fully safe.

Then suit yourself. I've done it on hundreds, if not thousands of cars and it's made no difference.
The only thing that a cold engine means is a little more clearance here and there. Good oil pressure will compensate for that.
Example: You live in the South. Early on a spring morning, 50 degrees. Start the car, back out of the driveway, and floor it. Won't hurt a thing.

With the oils and clearances of yesteryear, this was not advisable. But if you understand the inner workings of the internal combustion automobile engine, you'll know that there's not a need for warm up...again, unless you're in a really cold climate. (e.g., Alaska, Minnesota, etc. ) Basically, if you need a block heater, this doesn't apply.

Take note: I'm not advocating that everyone start their car in the morning and immediately go racing every day, but if for some reason you need to spank it first thing...such as, pulling out of the neighborhood out in front of someone and you need to gun it while the car's still cold, have no fear.

 

[BD2003]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: foghorn67
Myth: Warming up the car will ensure everything is well lubricated on startup.
Exception: EXTREME cold weather.

With today's oils, there's really no reason to warm the car up at all. By the time your engine catches and you can physically let go of the key, the oil is everywhere that the pump pushes it to.
As you said, unless in extreme cold, you can start it and drive it like you stole it with no repercussions.

I've talked to a couple of Ford engineers that agreed with me on this when I was trying to get this argument settled.

I really don't know about that. You're going to have a hard time convincing me to go full throttle before the car is fully warmed up. Hell, my car wont even let me near redline until its half warmed up, and even then, I have my doubts that its fully safe.

Then suit yourself. I've done it on hundreds, if not thousands of cars and it's made no difference.
The only thing that a cold engine means is a little more clearance here and there. Good oil pressure will compensate for that.
Example: You live in the South. Early on a spring morning, 50 degrees. Start the car, back out of the driveway, and floor it. Won't hurt a thing.

With the oils and clearances of yesteryear, this was not advisable. But if you understand the inner workings of the internal combustion automobile engine, you'll know that there's not a need for warm up...again, unless you're in a really cold climate. (e.g., Alaska, Minnesota, etc. ) Basically, if you need a block heater, this doesn't apply.

Take note: I'm not advocating that everyone start their car in the morning and immediately go racing every day, but if for some reason you need to spank it first thing...such as, pulling out of the neighborhood out in front of someone and you need to gun it while the car's still cold, have no fear.

If it makes no difference, why does it prevent me from revving past 6k (to 8k redline) until the engine is mostly warmed up? On a cold morning (30ish deg), the engine sounds vastly different. I'm not one to sit there and let it warm up at idle, but I can't imagine tearing down the street in the morning.

And how on earth could you possibly know hundreds/thousands of cars have not have their engine life shortened by doing so? I doubt it would blow it up on the spot, but more of a long term wear thing.

Assuming its all the same, and it doesnt hurt the engine, whats the *fastest* way to warm it up? The car uses so much more fuel while it's still cold.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: BD2003
If it makes no difference, why does it prevent me from revving past 6k (to 8k redline) until the engine is mostly warmed up? On a cold morning (30ish deg), the engine sounds vastly different. I'm not one to sit there and let it warm up at idle, but I can't imagine tearing down the street in the morning.

And how on earth could you possibly know hundreds/thousands of cars have not have their engine life shortened by doing so? I doubt it would blow it up on the spot, but more of a long term wear thing.

Assuming its all the same, and it doesnt hurt the engine, whats the *fastest* way to warm it up? The car uses so much more fuel while it's still cold.

Well, obviously on your specific engine, the manufacturer decided that it was best not to have it rev high when cold. Since you say your redline is 8k, that pretty much explains it. Not a typical car. There are certainly exceptions to what I'm saying, and yours is obviously one.

As far as how I know about the cars I've personally driven that way and seen driven that way....I worked at the largest dealership in the Southeast. I saw those same cars come back for regular service for years and years afterward.
Again, if you know anything about the inner workings of an engine, you'll know what I'm talking about. There are many, many people...in fact I'd say even most mechanics, that don't truly understand completely the inner workings of an engine. Even machine shop workers. They know how to do what they do very well, but when you start talking overall theory, they don't. So they just stick with the standard old knowledge, and that's fine. You really can't go wrong with letting an engine warm up.
But again, all I'm saying about the average car is, if you need to boot it before it's fully warmed up, it's not a problem with today's engines and oils.

As far as the best way to warm a car up...I suppose starting it up and holding it up around 1500-2000 rpms is the best way, but that's a pain for the driver. You could drive around in a lower gear. Anything to keep the rpm's up will help it warm up.

FYI, when a new engine is first started, the general procedure is to hold it at 2-2500 rpms for the first 10-15 minutes. This is for cam/lifter break-in, mostly.
So think about it....a brand new, never-run engine is SUPPOSED to be held up at an uncomfortable rpm when FIRST STARTED.
And then some folks will tell you you can't get into it a bit when it's cold...after it's completely broken in and being driven every day.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: gsellis

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Gasoline is gasoline, regardless of where you buy it.

Sorry, this is NOT a myth. The gasoline you buy is almost never 'made' by the company you buy it from. After delivery from the pipeline, the brand is then distinguished by additives.

Actually, to a point, you're right. Having worked in every major refinery in the S.F. bay area at one time or another, I've seen the lines of tankers there to fill. Regardless of which refinery, the trucks may say Shell, Chevron, Joe's Gas & Suds, MyGas Hauling Inc., whatever...
However, where the difference in gasolines comes in, is in the additives...EVERY major gasoline company has it's particular blend of additives. NOT ALL use the same ones, or in the same ratios, and NOT ALL gasolines are the same.

 

[shortylickens]

Originally posted by: Evadman

Originally posted by: Vic
AWD/4WD helps you brake in slippery conditions.

AWD? Agreed. Doesn't help worth a damn. However, I have to disagree with you on a 4WD vehicle. I can stop quite a bit faster with a center locked differential, and even faster with a front and rear locker.

That is because the center differential will not allow a wheel to lock, only all 4 of them. That means you will get absolute maximum breaking force before sliding as the force is applied across all 4 wheels.

If you have a 4 wheel drive vehicle with a locked or chain driven transfer case you can easily see for yourself. Go out in a slick surface and leave the vehicle in AWD or 2WD. Get mocing and pull the emergency breake hard enough so the rear wheels lock. Note how fast you are going. Now, lock the transfer case (or shift into 4WD) get going, and pull the ebrake. I seriously doubt you would have the strength to lock the wheels, and you will stop a hell of a lot quicker.

Without axle lockers, you would have to lock one front and one rear wheel. You can't lock both front or both rear unless you lock all 4 as the front and rear driveshafts are locked together. That means any uneven braking force will be applied through the drive shafts to the wheel with the most traction. In other words thus giving you the optimal friction surface.

In other words, in a standard braking system, the front does about 70% of the braking force, and the rear 30%. But what if the front only has 10% of the traction and the rear 90%? With a locked transfer case, the rear can do more work than the proporting valve would normaly allow. Go ahead, try it.

I never felt like putting lockers on my vehicle.
Just seemed like one more thing for me to know about and I like being ignorant.

Used to hang out with gearheads at my last duty station. I learned way more than I ever wanted to.
"Blah Blah Blah Blah DANA 60 Blah Blah Blah Blah DANA 44 Blah Blah Blah Blah Bulletproof Blah Blah Blah."
I DONT CARE!

I just want to crawl up a small hill and not get stuck. Can we do that? Please? Thank you.

These were the kind of guys who would spend about 2 grand on a Jeep body and then dump 30 thousand into upgrade parts.
They even got me to sign up with Pirate4x4. I think I made maybe two posts and quit.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: gsellis

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Gasoline is gasoline, regardless of where you buy it.

Sorry, this is NOT a myth. The gasoline you buy is almost never 'made' by the company you buy it from. After delivery from the pipeline, the brand is then distinguished by additives.

Actually, to a point, you're right. Having worked in every major refinery in the S.F. bay area at one time or another, I've seen the lines of tankers there to fill. Regardless of which refinery, the trucks may say Shell, Chevron, Joe's Gas & Suds, MyGas Hauling Inc., whatever...
However, where the difference in gasolines comes in, is in the additives...EVERY major gasoline company has it's particular blend of additives. NOT ALL use the same ones, or in the same ratios, and NOT ALL gasolines are the same.

True, assuming that what's in the ground at the local Shell station is actually Shell gas and not Citgo, Exxon, etc.
I've seen the same truck go from station to station, regardless of brand, filling the tanks...and I know damn well he didn't have separate internal tanks for the different brands.
So yes, if the BP station actually has BP gas in the ground, and the Exxon station actually has Exxon gas in the ground, then they're different....but in the end, it really doesn't matter, as all cars will run on all the different brands of gas with little to no difference.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: shortylickens
I never felt like putting lockers on my vehicle.
Just seemed like one more thing for me to know about and I like being ignorant.

Used to hang out with gearheads at my last duty station. I learned way more than I ever wanted to.
"Blah Blah Blah Blah DANA 60 Blah Blah Blah Blah DANA 44 Blah Blah Blah Blah Bulletproof Blah Blah Blah."
I DONT CARE!

I just want to crawl up a small hill and not get stuck. Can we do that? Please? Thank you.

These were the kind of guys who would spend about 2 grand on a Jeep body and then dump 30 thousand into upgrade parts.
They even got me to sign up with Pirate4x4. I think I made maybe two posts and quit.

Hah, I am signed up there, and at Jeepforum.com.
I'm currently building up my 81 CJ-7. Front and rear Dana 44's, small block Chevy 400, NV4500 trans, and yes....lockers in both axles.
Maybe I'll post the pics on a separate thread when I get a little further along.

 

[gsellis]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: shortylickens
Much more intelligent than ASSuming the vehicle in question has anti-lock breaks. If you wanna make an ass out of yourself fine, dont inflict your ignorance and stupidity on me.
As it so happens, my current vehicle is a little older and doesnt have ABS. But it has 4 wheel drive and 4 proper winter tires on it.

Incidentally, questioning someone elses intelligence does not enhance yours. It only makes it easier to point out how dumb you really are.
Now please go to bed and let the grown-ups finish their conversation.

Your profile says "Guam." Get much ice on the roads down there?!
Unless you're riding the clutch, downshifting on very slippery roads is pretty stupid, with or without ABS. Here's a nice, scientific explanation: there's a maximum amount of force that friction can possibly provide to your vehicle. Once your tires start slipping on the surface, the coefficient of friction drops (the difference between the static coefficient of friction when the tires aren't sliding to the coefficient of kinetic friction when the tires are sliding wrt to the road surface.) Downshift on black ice and you're going to lose control. Downshift in what 75% of the users here would consider "slippery", and you'll be fine (i.e. 1/4 inch of snow in North Carolina is enough to throw people into a panic; the people in western NY and other areas that need a foot of snow and -20 wind chill factors before they consider closing schools laugh and continue moving at the speed limit, and don't do idiotic things which cause them to lose control.)

I want to clear a few things up.

1) Most people don't know how to downshift. If you downshift like most people, ABS is better. Those that use the clutch to drag the engine up to speed in the gear are going to spin eventually.

2) There are conditions were ABS sucks and AWD (a good one)/4WD will rule. Wet leaves and snow on ice on snow will cause the wheels to stop spinning under braking. ABS stops working where if the wheels 'plow' a little, you get more grip.

3) ABS can be very regular, but all ABSs are not the same. The ABS system in the Integra Type-R was freaking amazing. In our Expedition, meh. Most pickup ABSs will let the tire lock momentarily before it releases, which can start a slide (waits for 0).

Me, if I had the choice, I would want AWD in a Subaru with ABS. WRX STi with snow tires for the win

 

[otispunkmeyer]

blue tinted Halogens suck. blue light is definately crap in the wet too.

really if you want the blue look. either pony up for 6000k - 8000k HIDs or just dont bother.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: BD2003

Originally posted by: thetxstang
Here's a myth I learned of recently: I'd always heard that running your car on Max A/C was harder on your cooling system than running it in Normal A/C mode. An automotive A/C technician that I know and trust recently explained that this is not the case at all.

Evidently, when running your car in Normal A/C mode, outside air is allowed to blow over the evaporator core, which, since the outside air is usually much warmer, makes it harder for the evaporator core to cool and do its job. Conversely, when your A/C is set to Max, the air is set to recirculate mode, using the already cooled cabin air to blow over the evaporator core.

He also said the following method is the best way to cool the inside of your car on a hot summer day: Use the Normal A/C setting for the first couple of minutes or so, then set your system to Max A/C. Maximum cooling and the most efficiency, FTW!

That would depend on your car...the recirculation is completely mechanical on mine. Closing the vent definitely cools down quicker. Heats up quicker too, but then you get all foggy.

american cars use the Max AC / normal AC. japanese cars use recirculate vs outside air.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: WhoBeDaPlaya

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
4) If you have keyless entry and you lock your keys in the car, you can call a friend on your cell and have them use the spare remote to unlock your car if they point the remote at their phone and if you put your cell phone near the car.

LOL. Any EE worth their salt is gonna know that the severe undersampling and vocoding alone is going to fsck up that signal beyond recognition.

I'm pretty sure that you're being sarcastic, but just in case...

Cell phones don't pick up and send RF transmissions. It doesn't have anything to do with the coding or sampling rate of the signal from the cell phone.

ZV

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: RGUN
WHAT?? So you're driving along an icy road and you need to slow down, apply brakes and use all the wheels and the ABS safety net OR downshift to a lower gear therefore making power application much less smooth and risk locking the wheels? yeah thats intelligent alright.

If you can't match the revs to make the downshift smooth, you have no business behind the wheel. There's much less risk of locking the wheels when you downshift than there is by using the brakes and you maintain more control even than ABS.

ZV

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: RGUN
I stand correct, perhaps if you put a spoiler on the back of the cab (a la Subaru WRX) it would direct some air downward and develope Laminar flow out the back of the bed?

The issue isn't that. The issue is the big vertical rear wall of the passenger cab and the trailing vortexes that the vacuum behind it creates.

Having the tailgate up "traps" a "bubble" of air which causes only the portion of the cab that is above the top of the bed to have that vacuum and trailing vortexes. With the tailgate down, the entire back of the cab has that vacuum and trailing vortex.

The spoiler would help to keep the rear window clean (since it would disrupt airflow and stop the vacuum that sucks dirt to the rear window) but it would make the vortex problem worse, not better.

ZV

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
FYI, when a new engine is first started, the general procedure is to hold it at 2-2500 rpms for the first 10-15 minutes. This is for cam/lifter break-in, mostly.
So think about it....a brand new, never-run engine is SUPPOSED to be held up at an uncomfortable rpm when FIRST STARTED.
And then some folks will tell you you can't get into it a bit when it's cold...after it's completely broken in and being driven every day.

Yes, but that's to break-in parts. It's essentially intentionally creating wear patterns on the parts to ensure that they seat themselves properly. It's intentional "damage" to ensure that surfaces wear against each other to even out manufacturing variances and is a unique situation that cannot be properly compared to a normal cold start.

For modern cars though, as soon as you have oil pressure you can start driving. I don't generally recommend flooring it until at least the coolant is to normal temperature, perferably not until the oil has reached normal temperatures. This is largely because I worry about over-pressure in the oil system from cold oil rather than actual wear on the engine. I've seen people blow a seal from excessive oil pressure because they floored it with a cold engine and cold oil.

ZV

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
For modern cars though, as soon as you have oil pressure you can start driving. I don't generally recommend flooring it until at least the coolant is to normal temperature, perferably not until the oil has reached normal temperatures. This is largely because I worry about over-pressure in the oil system from cold oil rather than actual wear on the engine. I've seen people blow a seal from excessive oil pressure because they floored it with a cold engine and cold oil.

ZV

Not a problem with today's oils. They flow like water even at fairly low temps. No worries with overpressures in your average car.
And I'm not advocating starting up your car every morning, backing out of the driveway and doing a burnout down the street.
I'm just saying that if you DO have to "get on it" once in awhile before it's warm, don't sweat it. Not going to hurt anything.

edit: But if you're running 5w30 or 5w20 like most cars these days, you just will not get but so much oil pressure, regardless of whether it's cold or warm. (extreme cold not included)
You can take 5w30/10w30, etc, and it runs like water at 25 degrees, no problem.

 

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

Originally posted by: ironwing
But most people who warm their cars up aren't doing it for the benefit of the engine. They do it mainly because they want the heater to warm up the cabin. Also, they are trying to charge the battery so the car doesn't die when put in gear.

I thought that idling doesn't really do much for the battery. Don't you have to rev it somewhat to do any good?
Disclaimer : Car n00b here

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
But if you're running 5w30 or 5w20 like most cars these days, you just will not get but so much oil pressure, regardless of whether it's cold or warm. (extreme cold not included)
You can take 5w30/10w30, etc, and it runs like water at 25 degrees, no problem.

True enough. My 951 runs on 20W50, and so does the 914, so I'm more accustomed to heavier oils. I'm also a little oversensitive since the time I had the defective oil filter that blew its o-ring on a cold startup. 20W50 and 20 degree temps means bad things if the seal is marginal. I inspect oil filter O-rings more carefully now...

ZV

 

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

Originally posted by: DrPizza
Let us know how it turns out.
But, I'll save you the trouble: snopes
That must be one heck of a cell phone if it can listen to a radio frequency on a typical microphone and play back RF via its speaker

Forget the mic and speaker frequency response limitations. Even if they could pick up and produce GHz signals, do you seriously think that the provider will give you enough bandwidth to do that? The go and squish down our voices, and then vocode the crap out of it

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: WhoBeDaPlaya

Originally posted by: ironwing
But most people who warm their cars up aren't doing it for the benefit of the engine. They do it mainly because they want the heater to warm up the cabin. Also, they are trying to charge the battery so the car doesn't die when put in gear.

I thought that idling doesn't really do much for the battery. Don't you have to rev it somewhat to do any good?
Disclaimer : Car n00b here

Depends.

Motorcycles: Most won't charge the battery at idle.

Cars: Almost all will.

However, the idea that one has to let the car idle to "charge up the battery" so that it doesn't "die when put in gear" is, quite frankly, stupid. An alternator puts out more than sufficient charge to keep the car running, and if the battery has enough juice to start the car, it's not bad enough to cause the car to stall. (A battery that is shorted internally can suck enough juice to cause an engine to stall, but such a battery wouldn't start the car in the first place, and even if the car were jumpped, it wouldn't idle.)

ZV

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: WhoBeDaPlaya

Originally posted by: ironwing
But most people who warm their cars up aren't doing it for the benefit of the engine. They do it mainly because they want the heater to warm up the cabin. Also, they are trying to charge the battery so the car doesn't die when put in gear.

I thought that idling doesn't really do much for the battery. Don't you have to rev it somewhat to do any good?
Disclaimer : Car n00b here

Depends.

Motorcycles: Most won't charge the battery at idle.

Cars: Almost all will.

However, the idea that one has to let the car idle to "charge up the battery" so that it doesn't "die when put in gear" is, quite frankly, stupid. An alternator puts out more than sufficient charge to keep the car running, and if the battery has enough juice to start the car, it's not bad enough to cause the car to stall. (A battery that is shorted internally can suck enough juice to cause an engine to stall, but such a battery wouldn't start the car in the first place, and even if the car were jumpped, it wouldn't idle.)

ZV

i had a dead battery that, after the car was jumped and idling on its own, was so bad that when i put it in gear it died.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: WhoBeDaPlaya

Originally posted by: ironwing
But most people who warm their cars up aren't doing it for the benefit of the engine. They do it mainly because they want the heater to warm up the cabin. Also, they are trying to charge the battery so the car doesn't die when put in gear.

I thought that idling doesn't really do much for the battery. Don't you have to rev it somewhat to do any good?
Disclaimer : Car n00b here

Depends.

Motorcycles: Most won't charge the battery at idle.

Cars: Almost all will.

However, the idea that one has to let the car idle to "charge up the battery" so that it doesn't "die when put in gear" is, quite frankly, stupid. An alternator puts out more than sufficient charge to keep the car running, and if the battery has enough juice to start the car, it's not bad enough to cause the car to stall. (A battery that is shorted internally can suck enough juice to cause an engine to stall, but such a battery wouldn't start the car in the first place, and even if the car were jumpped, it wouldn't idle.)

ZV

i had a dead battery that, after the car was jumped and idling on its own, was so bad that when i put it in gear it died.

Absolutely no way it was the battery. The alternator, even at idle, puts out sufficient energy to run the engine even if the battery were removed from the car. Unless the alternator is defective as well.

Under no circumstances should a running automotive engine be dependant on the battery to remain running.

ZV

 

[daveymark]

change your oil every 3000 miles
acetone improves gas mileage
people won't notice that dent with the LeBra on
smoking while pumping gas is dangerous
leaving the engine running while pumping gas is dangerous

 

[gsellis]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Absolutely no way it was the battery. The alternator, even at idle, puts out sufficient energy to run the engine even if the battery were removed from the car. Unless the alternator is defective as well.

Under no circumstances should a running automotive engine be dependant on the battery to remain running.

ZV

Unless it is dark. Then it is easy to kill it with they lights on. Did this about 3 mths ago.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: gsellis

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Absolutely no way it was the battery. The alternator, even at idle, puts out sufficient energy to run the engine even if the battery were removed from the car. Unless the alternator is defective as well.

Under no circumstances should a running automotive engine be dependant on the battery to remain running.

ZV

Unless it is dark. Then it is easy to kill it with they lights on. Did this about 3 mths ago.

If the engine is running, the battery is not defective (shorted cell, etc) and the alternator is performing to spec, you cannot have the battery die while the engine is running.

If you turn the car off, of course you can kill the battery by leaving the lights on. But if the car is running, the battery should be 100% un-necessary assuming everything else is performing to specifications.

ZV

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: WhoBeDaPlaya

Originally posted by: ironwing
But most people who warm their cars up aren't doing it for the benefit of the engine. They do it mainly because they want the heater to warm up the cabin. Also, they are trying to charge the battery so the car doesn't die when put in gear.

I thought that idling doesn't really do much for the battery. Don't you have to rev it somewhat to do any good?
Disclaimer : Car n00b here

Depends.

Motorcycles: Most won't charge the battery at idle.

Cars: Almost all will.

However, the idea that one has to let the car idle to "charge up the battery" so that it doesn't "die when put in gear" is, quite frankly, stupid. An alternator puts out more than sufficient charge to keep the car running, and if the battery has enough juice to start the car, it's not bad enough to cause the car to stall. (A battery that is shorted internally can suck enough juice to cause an engine to stall, but such a battery wouldn't start the car in the first place, and even if the car were jumpped, it wouldn't idle.)

ZV

i had a dead battery that, after the car was jumped and idling on its own, was so bad that when i put it in gear it died.

Absolutely no way it was the battery. The alternator, even at idle, puts out sufficient energy to run the engine even if the battery were removed from the car. Unless the alternator is defective as well.

Under no circumstances should a running automotive engine be dependant on the battery to remain running.

ZV

Okay then, what is your explanation for generations of experience that shows that if you warm the car up before putting the car in gear it won't die while if you just start it up and try to drive off, bang, dead, now need a jump? Ambient temperatures from -30F to +10F. Keep in mind that this experience is mostly, but not completely, with carburated engines not fuel injected.