I see, so your overplaying this one anecdote as some kind of harbinger of all social interaction? That seems like a stretch for something to worry about.
I see, so your overplaying this one anecdote as some kind of harbinger of all social interaction? That seems like a stretch for something to worry about.You can let something progress naturally and still both be respectful of each other's boundaries. "No", or "I need to stop this now" are pretty clear indicators along with "I'm putting my clothes on, can you call me a cab or drive me home?".
It isn't fucking rocket science and shouldn't need to be between adults. We've all had bad dates. We've all had bad sexual experiences that we later regretted. That transcends gender. Running to the media because your dream date with a celebrity didn't end up the fairy tale experience you built yourself up to expect is fucking petty. Maybe the guy is a bad kisser, sucks at oral or is just plain awkward sexually. If he had been less awkward and maybe presented a bit more foreplay this wouldn't even be in the news today.
I have a daughter. I worry about when she is older, but I'm also raising her to hopefully execute on any common sense she'll actually have as a young adult and own her choices - Ones she is in the process of making and the ones she has already made by that time. Hopefully she'll be bright enough to understand what she needs to do in foggier scenarios such as this and hopefully she'll come out swinging if she ever faces an actual assault.
How is he overplaying it when there are many people like you stating all encounters should be a string of enthusiastic affirmations of consent? It cracks me up because the whole concept is so childish in it's black and white understanding of courting and sex, it's borderline puritanical. The solution to all this is not something that ignores or denies the nuanced and coy nature of romantic and sexual interaction.I see, so your overplaying this one anecdote as some kind of harbinger of all social interaction? That seems like a stretch for something to worry about.
You can let something progress naturally and still both be respectful of each other's boundaries. "No", or "I need to stop this now" are pretty clear indicators along with "I'm putting my clothes on, can you call me a cab or drive me home?".
It isn't fucking rocket science and shouldn't need to be between adults. We've all had bad dates. We've all had bad sexual experiences that we later regretted. That transcends gender. Running to the media because your dream date with a celebrity didn't end up the fairy tale experience you built yourself up to expect is fucking petty. Maybe the guy is a bad kisser, sucks at oral or is just plain awkward sexually. If he had been less awkward and maybe presented a bit more foreplay this wouldn't even be in the news today.
I have a daughter. I worry about when she is older, but I'm also raising her to hopefully execute on any common sense she'll actually have as a young adult and own her choices - Ones she is in the process of making and the ones she has already made by that time. Hopefully she'll be bright enough to understand what she needs to do in foggier scenarios such as this and hopefully she'll come out swinging if she ever faces an actual assault.
He ordered white wine and she prefers red. She didn't even get to choose, and by all accounts he did not even ask? How is it not rape?
How is he overplaying it when there are many people like you stating all encounters should be a string of enthusiastic affirmations of consent? It cracks me up because the whole concept is so childish in it's black and white understanding of courting and sex, it's borderline puritanical. The solution to all this is not something that ignores or denies the nuanced and coy nature of romantic and sexual interaction.
I hope this isn't an attempt to describe me, slick.This is what happens when you have a generation or two that have been by and large sheltered their whole lives and live behind their keyboards. They are one of the most in person socially inept group you'll ever come across. ***and that also pertains to their shitty dating experiences and expectations.
The horror of having to openly communicate with women.
This is a great point.
What you describe as "naturally" is just traditional. It's appeal to antiquity, and it's an error in reason.
That's a hot take right there.You strike me as someone who has had very little encounter with romance/sex etc. That’s just not how these things work. You don’t ask permission to kiss a girl, non verbal cues from both just kind of lead into the moment. Same with sex (at first anyways, then you have to beg and plead for it). No always means no, but in the real world there isn’t going to be a formal spelled out yes.
That's a hot take right there.
You impugn my experience as "very little", but are we to take yours as "the right amount"?
"The real world." Another bit of fallacious nonsense.
Good luck with doing things your way, UC. Hope you don't rape anyone by mistake.
And this is my biggest disconnect--because despite growing up behind a keyboard and socially inept, I still managed to figure all this shit out. I guess the constant bombard of social media is the big difference. Despite all the time spent on IRC/ICQ/AIM/forums/etc., the internet was a separate reality and in the post social media world it's all intermixed.This is what happens when you have a generation or two that have been by and large sheltered their whole lives and live behind their keyboards. They are one of the most in person socially inept group you'll ever come across. ***and that also pertains to their shitty dating experiences and expectations.
Cool. I'll leave out how you come off, since it ain't fucking relevant to the discussion.There is no "right amount" but you come off as being disconnected from the reality of how sexual relationships work/unfold.
Let's not be dense. I had this impression most of us were adults and capable of thought.
This. In a nutshell.This is what happens when you have a generation or two that have been by and large sheltered their whole lives and live behind their keyboards. They are one of the most in person socially inept group you'll ever come across. ***and that also pertains to their shitty dating experiences and expectations.
This. In a nutshell.
I think there's a large number of men and women in current generations who simply don't know how to interact with each other, once it goes past stupid emojis on a screen and 5 word text messages.
This bit in particular amazes me:
"When Ansari told her he was going to grab a condom within minutes of their first kiss, Grace voiced her hesitation explicitly. “I said something like, ‘Whoa, let’s relax for a sec, let’s chill.’” She says he then resumed kissing her, briefly performed oral sex on her, and asked her to do the same thing to him. She did, but not for long. “It was really quick. Everything was pretty much touched and done within ten minutes of hooking up, except for actual sex.”
I'm guessing that quick oral sex, done within ten minutes counts as a "clear, non-verbal clue".
This is a generation now where performing oral on each other isn't "actual sex".
This is whole thing is just pathetic. First and foremost, it's nothing anyone else should even know about, or would, were it not a celebrity.
Going by this account, he seems quite a bit the bumbling oaf, but the whole thing is simply NO ONE ELSE'S business. It's not rape, it's not sexual assault. It's a date that didn't go well. Dealing with this type of thing via "Let's expose 'em on social media and try to ruin 'em over it!" is a crock of shit. But that's where we are.
Many men and woman simply don't know how to deal with each other in reality. I suppose an upshot of that is eventually the population will thin out some, as I guess it's possible the ineptness may get so bad that fewer and fewer people will form relationships that create offspring. Sounds like a harsh judgement, but it honestly wouldn't surprise me.
I think the problem is multi-faceted and not the fault of one sex vs another. Too many young men are never taught how to be gentlemen and how to interact with the opposite sex. Men have always been pigs,but I think men used to be more skilled at real world social interaction. Women on the other hand I think get sent screwed up mixed messages from day one. Oral is just like holding hands now, so how dare that pig think it's leading to "actual" sex. When things go poorly and you feel hurt and violated (based on some actions you DID actually participate in yourself, but have bought into a load of HORSESHIT that it doesn't actually count and so is 100% on him) don't discuss it rationally with the person or anyone else, go straight to the media to ruin someone over it.
The horror of having to openly communicate with women.
That's a hot take right there.
You impugn my experience as "very little", but are we to take yours as "the right amount"?
"The real world." Another bit of fallacious nonsense.
Good luck with doing things your way, UC. Hope you don't rape anyone by mistake.
I think the woman's side of the story represents a quite important reflection of how these things go in reality instead of our minds. That said, it's a social issue and not a criminal one, and she appropriately addressed Ansari after the act. After some reflection, I do not think it appropriate to release this story, particularly in anonymity. I wish a story like this could be told with attention to sexual dynamics but not directly impacting a public figure with reduced capacity to defend himself.
Yes, and I would add that unless there is an allegation of serious misconduct, it is entirely inappropriate to report the intimate details of a consensual sexual encounter to the public, regardless of whether a public figure was involved or not. The entire incident feels like revenge porn to me. If you had a bad date, then confront the person you went out with. Otherwise, it's a private matter and ought to stay that way.
The biggest problem with her conduct, however, is that it tends to discredit the legitimacy of the metoo movement. Arguments like those made by Starbuck in the thread seem spot on, for this case, but are less persuasive when applied to most other cases in recent memory.
I don't think that was the person's intent, nor hers or babe magazine's prediction of how the story would be received. I do classify it more than a bad date, and I'm disappointed that people don't see more complexity here, but it doesn't sound criminal either.
Also married here, since apparently now we're qualifying our various levels of experience.As a married man with many awesome sexual encounters in my life, if i followed your advice I'd still be single and forever lonely.
Dude, adult women that want to be kissed don't want you to ask for damn permission.
Nuance. The opposite of simplicity.What do you mean by complexity?
Nuance. The opposite of simplicity.
I know "complexity" as a concept vexes you.
I guess I'm perplexed by your inability to perceive the complexity of the situation; the dynamics involved.Wow! No shit? I didn't know I could just look it up in the dictionary!
It couldn't be that I was asking him to elaborate what he meant by it. No, I was clearly asking for the definition of the word as delivered by a jackass.