Question B550 chipset, so AMD joins the dark side after all.

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Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
3,873
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I just read the article...







So let me get this straight, this chipset is coming out like a year later, they did not even bother to add CPU PCI-E 4.0 uplink support or to increase the number of sata ports that is ALREADY a problem on every 6 sata B450 motherboard (NVME x4 disables the 2 SOC Sata, thus 6 sata B450 mbs losses 2 sata if NVME is used), and they even dare to futher reduce backguard compatibility?

I was not expecting for the PCI-E lanes FROM the chipset to be 4.0, but only USB 3.2 G2, no more satas, CPU link still 3.0 and the PCI-E lanes 3.0 is beyond disappointing.
 
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PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
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and x570 looks like a flawed solution with the high power usage/active cooling requirements and decreased sata performance and high cost..

This is the thing that gets me about people saying "You should have bought a better board!" x570 isn't really better across the board. And why they release x570 boards that don't have dual 8x/8x slots is beyond me. I thought that was a feature intrinsic to the chipset.
 
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VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,448
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It's just a guess, but AMD may be referring to full feature support. If you want ALL platform/CPU features, Matisse is only compatible with X570/B550/A520. Then they're correct. If you don't mind, sure you can run it on any AM4 chipset.
That would actually be a promising development, if your interpretation is true.
 

Insert_Nickname

Diamond Member
May 6, 2012
4,971
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So they should explicitly say what works and what doesn't. Just like they openly say how PCIe4.0 support looks depending on platform.

How am I supposed to know this otherwise?

No argument there. If there are caveats, just state them. Let enthusiasts decide if they're willing to make the trade-offs.

But again, it's only a guess from my end.
 

gdansk

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2011
2,489
3,380
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Can someone please summarize what I am supposed to be outraged about?
The more I think about this the more disappointed I am with AMD.
  1. B550 should have launched last year with X570. Instead people bought B450 boards for 3000 series CPUs not knowing they were a dead end. Some refreshed B450 boards gave the impression they would not be a dead end.
  2. BIOS sizes limitations would not impact all B450/X470 boards. MSI's Max series, for example, have larger ROM than some X570 boards.
  3. B550 should support previous generation processors to the same extent as X570 (i.e. back to the 2000 series).
I find it unlikely AMD will backtrack. I believe them when they say it isn't easy to have 1000 to 4000 series support on a single chipset. But it seems like it should be possible (though not with a single BIOS version).

Perhaps not outrage but there are people who bought B450 boards with the expectation they would support future AMD CPUs while that does not appear to be the case. Perhaps it was an incorrect expectation but the MAX series in particular seemed like they were setup for just the purpose.
 
Feb 4, 2009
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Perhaps not outrage but there are people who bought B450 boards with the expectation they would support future AMD CPUs while that does not appear to be the case. Perhaps it was an incorrect expectation but the MAX series in particular seemed like they were setup for just the purpose.

Ah, I see

Sort of don’t get that outrage. B450 boards aren’t that expensive, admittedly the high end can be expensive but does sacrificing an $85.00 board make that much of a difference? Particularly when the CPU & the board are a better selling combo.
 

amrnuke

Golden Member
Apr 24, 2019
1,181
1,772
136
Can someone please summarize what I am supposed to be outraged about?
Most people buy new CPUs to put in their old motherboards.
AMD has traditionally had good support of that.

What AMD are doing with Zen3 is substantively little different from what Intel did releasing a new socket.
Unless you are the type of person who buys new motherboards for their old CPUs.
 

maddie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2010
4,787
4,771
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Most people buy new CPUs to put in their old motherboards.
AMD has traditionally had good support of that.

What AMD are doing with Zen3 is substantively little different from what Intel did releasing a new socket.
Unless you are the type of person who buys new motherboards for their old CPUs.
Most people? You truly believe this?
 
Feb 4, 2009
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Most people buy new CPUs to put in their old motherboards.
AMD has traditionally had good support of that.

What AMD are doing with Zen3 is substantively little different from what Intel did releasing a new socket.
Unless you are the type of person who buys new motherboards for their old CPUs.

Please define “most people”
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,802
11,157
136
Sort of don’t get that outrage. B450 boards aren’t that expensive, admittedly the high end can be expensive but does sacrificing an $85.00 board make that much of a difference? Particularly when the CPU & the board are a better selling combo.

Swapping out the motherboard means tearing down almost the entire system. I would be more upset about that than having to replace a B450. Also, keep in mind that x470 is apparently being orphaned as well. There's no reason why a C7H should be left out in the cold.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,448
10,117
126
Can someone please summarize what I am supposed to be outraged about?
HardwareUnboxed video summarizes it pretty well.

AMD says, when Zen2 was released, and X570, that (CPU?) performance was identical between X570 and B450, so those on a budget might want to opt for B450, and B550 was delayed.

MSI due to their bloated BIOS, refreshes their whole B450 mobo lineup, with "MAX" boards, with 32MB flash memory chips, for "future AM4 CPU support, and they mention 'all' future AM4 CPUs in their documentation".

Fast-forward to now.

AMD says, "Oh, B450 owners, you WONT be able to upgrade to Zen3, only X570 owners, and B550 owners."
 
Feb 4, 2009
34,703
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Swapping out the motherboard means tearing down almost the entire system. I would be more upset about that than having to replace a B450. Also, keep in mind that x470 is apparently being orphaned as well. There's no reason why a C7H should be left out in the cold.

I get it and I get the disappointment. I don’t get the outrage, Intel has been doing this forever, nobody but us nerds change their CPU and most of us nerds don’t bother due to cost/performance limitations.
Sort of a trivial matter to me.
 

piokos

Senior member
Nov 2, 2018
554
206
86
I get it and I get the disappointment. I don’t get the outrage, Intel has been doing this forever, nobody but us nerds change their CPU and most of us nerds don’t bother due to cost/performance limitations.
Sort of a trivial matter to me.
That's not very precise.
You probably meant "nobody but nerds upgrades CPUs for better performance".

But people actually replace CPUs (or get them replaced) all the time. Because of failure. Because they bought a used PC and want to upgrade. Because their business is modernizing and reselling old business desktops. And so on.

No one says situation on AMD side is worse than on Intel side. But expectations were much higher and you can't neglect the fact that many people got into this platform also because seamless upgrades for 4 years was a plausible scenario (at least: one popularized by AMD-optimists).
Intel doesn't guarantee anything like that. They don't tell you a socket will be "supported" for 4 years - whereas in case of AMD that was repeated over and over during the first Ryzen campaign.

It also makes me wonder how is long-term support going to look.
Intel offers select chips for many years (currently they still make Ivy Bridge CPUs - launched in 2012). Xeons are supported for even longer.
AMD is already replacing best selling 1000-series with a Zen+...
I wonder what choice of CPUs I'll have for a used B350 OEM desktop bought in, lets say, 2023.
 

amrnuke

Golden Member
Apr 24, 2019
1,181
1,772
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Most people? You truly believe this?
Please define “most people”
I should have been more specific. We were talking about people outraged at the decision AMD have made and that's who I was referencing in my mind.
As a broad enthusiast population it seems that there is significant split on whether people who purchased Zen2 upgraded to X570 at the same time, kept their old board from their Zen/Zen+ system, or bought a 4x0 chipset board to put the Zen2 chip in.
Obviously I was being way way too broad in just saying "most people", shouldn't have done that. Definitely should have written what was in my head instead of what fell out of my brain onto the keyboard right before I hit "POST REPLY"
 
Feb 4, 2009
34,703
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That's not very precise.
You probably meant "nobody but nerds upgrades CPUs for better performance".

But people actually replace CPUs (or get them replaced) all the time. Because of failure. Because they bought a used PC and want to upgrade. Because their business is modernizing and reselling old business desktops. And so on.

No one says situation on AMD side is worse than on Intel side. But expectations were much higher and you can't neglect the fact that many people got into this platform also because seamless upgrades for 4 years was a plausible scenario (at least: one popularized by AMD-optimists).
Intel doesn't guarantee anything like that. They don't tell you a socket will be "supported" for 4 years - whereas in case of AMD that was repeated over and over during the first Ryzen campaign.

It also makes me wonder how is long-term support going to look.
Intel offers select chips for many years (currently they still make Ivy Bridge CPUs - launched in 2012). Xeons are supported for even longer.
AMD is already replacing best selling 1000-series with a Zen+...
I wonder what choice of CPUs I'll have for a used B350 OEM desktop bought in, lets say, 2023.

Do you have stats to backup this claim?
I stand by nobody replaces their CPUs outside of this or a similar forum.

I know for fact big businesses don’t replace CPUs because they lease
Mid sized businesses don’t replace CPUs because they lease
Small businesses (fewer than 50 PCs in total) don’t upgrade their CPUs because they buy from Best Buy or Amazon. They don’t have an IT staff.
I have never met someone who even mentioned needing to replace their CPU, I bet the majority don’t know they could replace a CPU or even what CPU would be available as a replacement.
We are talking about a fraction of a small sub set of a small market.
 
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maddie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2010
4,787
4,771
136
Do you have stats to backup this claim?
I stand by nobody replaces their CPUs outside of this or a similar forum.

I know for fact big businesses don’t replace CPUs because they lease
Mid sized businesses don’t replace CPUs because they lease
Small businesses (fewer than 50 PCs in total) don’t upgrade their CPUs because they buy from Best Buy or Amazon. They don’t have an IT staff.
I have never met someone who even mentioned needing to replace their CPU, I bet the majority don’t know they could replace a CPU or even what CPU would be available as a replacement.
We are talking about a fraction of a small sub set of a small market.
Most people think the CPU is the case.
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
3,873
1,527
136
I want to point out that in the AM4 platform, the Chipset is merely a glorified PCIe Switch, SATA Controller and USB Controller. The Processor itself fulfills all the core roles as Zen was designed as a potentially standalone SoC. As such, the Chipset is an extra, thus it doesn't has to support the Processor at all, making it less important than what people thinks that it is. If anything, it is technically possible that Zen 3 works in any Chipset, or maybe even without (A la A300/X300, which were supposed to be just security chips wired to the Processor via simple SPI and not full fledged Chipsets wired via 4 PCIe Lanes).

What you have to focus here is in OFFICIAL SUPPORT. We know that AMD already said no, but that doesn't means that it will not work. If we go for that logic, AMD officially does NOT support Zen 2 on B350/X370 Chipsets, yet they work regardless. Since there are no technical reasons for it to not work, then I expect that it should be possible to get Zen 3 working. Whenever the Motherboard manufacturers decides to support it on their own, or whenever you require some BIOS modding to force newer AGESAs onto older Motherboard (As if that wasn't currently the case...), is something still yet to be seen and there is nothing else that you can do but wait because without physical Hardware no one can experiment solutions.

The thing here is that the Processor may want to validate the Chipset for certain features (Reason why A300/X300 were supposed to exist), and refuse to enable these features if not on supported Processor-Chipset combinations. Both Intel and AMD do that. However, on top of that, Intel uses Chipsets for market segmentation between Workstation/Server and consumer lines on the same Socket, making post-Skylake Xeons E3s to outright refuse to POST on consumer Chipsets. However, that is not a technical limitation, is a fully artificial one (And actually, it was defeated via BIOS modding, making such combinations now possible). The problem is whenever AMD decides to implement such checks in Zen 3 to not work in non-supported Chipsets instead of just crippling some problematic feature like PCIe 4 on non-X570 Motherboards.



About PCIe 4.0 on older Motherboards, that is something that was already well covered. While in theory you can, and early AGESA versions supporting Zen 2 could enable PCIe 4 capabilities (For the PCIe Slots wired to the Processor, obviously, the rest from the Chipset were still PCIe 2), PCIe 4 is quite strict and Motherboards not designed with it in mind would have signal quality issues (This seems to not have been the case with Intel Ivy Bridge, which introduced PCIe 3 support for the Processor PCIe Slots on older Sandy Bridge Motherboards). While Motherboard manufacturers could have come up with redesigned Motherboards based on old Chipsets where the Processor PCIe Slots were fully PCIe 4 compliant, AMD decided that it didn't wanted any blaming over stability issues caused by older Motherboards thus crippled PCIe 4 on all non-X570 Chipsets for that reason. I do believe that it could have been done, though, but maybe there wasn't any other way to discriminate between an old and new design based on a specific Chipset thus AMD prefered to blacklist them all to play it safe.



Also, I think that people are understimating SATA. For one, it still is much cheaper than NVMe SSDs, so you can't replace it if looking from a GB/$ perspective, and this matters for budget users (I suppose that there is a reason why there are budget Notebooks that still come with HDs!). Second, you can get far more SATA connectivity than NVMe, since NVMe is very heavy on PCIe Lane count, and to fanout PCIe, you require expensive PCIe Switches. Third, thanks to PCIe and SATA Controllers being multiplexed onto the same Pins in several chips (Including Zen itself and the AMD Chipsets), you can have fully expose both of them if a Motherboard designer decided to use an appropiated connector.
For example, X570 has 4 dedicated SATA, and 8 lanes that can be configured as either 4 SATA or 4 PCIe. If you used two OCuLink Ports, with cables you could get either a 4 lane PCIe NVMe drive or use a breakout cable for 4 SATAs. That way you could maximize flexibility and let the user could choose whatever it wants (Albeit the cables are still a non-irrelevant cost). Sadly, they all took the pathetic M.2 route, which shouldn't have scaled up from Notebooks form factors to Desktop on the first place.

Petty much this.

I can't seem to make sense of your 1st line.

How would having individuals not needing to buy a new board to upgrade CPU generations result in more sales. I can see if some mainboard manufacturers could do that, then they would get more sales at the expense of the rest. If all had to follow the same guidelines then no, sales would decrease if no one needed to buy new boards for several generations.

OEM does not want to have compatibility nightmares, simple as that. While they dont like the idea of new cpus working on OLD motherboards, if they have to give support they dont like this silly idea of "hey look, this 3200G will work on your B350, but a 3600 will NOT" AMD should name they processors better if they want to do that, thats includes the idea of B350 supporting it and A320 do not, and thats the reason of why A320 ended up supporting the 3950X.
The reason behind all of this is that it creates more support problems for them. And they definately want that new motherboards to support old processors, thats is a bigger market.

And right now this idea of you can use your 3600 on a B550 but a 3200G/3400G no is another support nightmare for everyone. Specially when X570 supports almost everything.


So they should explicitly say what works and what doesn't. Just like they openly say how PCIe4.0 support looks depending on platform.

How am I supposed to know this otherwise?

AMD should come clean and say "We plan for 3 gen support on each chipset with no retrocompatibility". Period.
Thats already better than what Intel does, and we know what to expect. I really dont like when they play as "the nice guy", when we all know that at the end of the day they need to make money.
 
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piokos

Senior member
Nov 2, 2018
554
206
86
Do you have stats to backup this claim?
I stand by nobody replaces their CPUs outside of this or a similar forum.
I don't think such data would even be possible to collect, let alone easy to find.

You're thinking in the wrong dimension. You focus on users, but you should think about desktop PC lifetime.
I.e. what happens when the first owner stops using it.

In case of business desktops this is quite straightforward. There are specialized companies that buy them from enterprises, fix/upgrade if necessary and resell. And yes, many of these PC have the CPU replaced (not necessarily with a new one).
What happens with consumer desktops? I guess not many are thrown to the bin (it's illegal in most countries). Again: someone tries to give them second life, because that's the most profitable outcome.

This reminds me a discussion about how cars "die". If you ask people, not many will remember having a crash or breakdown so severe that car had to be scrapped.
But when you focus on the cars, it turns out that most of them end up like that (maybe on another continent, but still).
 

Rigg

Senior member
May 6, 2020
475
1,004
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I have to agree that this is pretty silly to get outraged about. Who is seriously negatively impacted by this? I can sympathize with someone who bought a flagship x470 (before x570 launched) or someone who bought a b450 (after zen 3 launched) who is disappointed by this news. They've given you 6 months warning that you'll need to upgrade your motherboard if you want to run zen 3. While not ideal at least you know where things stand ahead of time. B550 has significant feature advantages over older boards. Judging by the pictures in the presentation the new boards (at least the higher end ones) should offer excellent power delivery and expansion options.

Your current motherboard didn't just become e-waste. You can still sell it. You'd presumably be selling your current CPU anyway. I think it's safe to assume that zen 3 will have at least a $200 entry point. Previous gen Ryzen CPU's have historically received significant discounts upon the launch of a new generation. I'd argue that anyone cash strapped enough to care about having to upgrade their motherboard would be better served upgrading to Zen 2 anyway. Budget restricted gamers probably don't have enough GPU for zen 3 to offer much over zen 2 regardless.

I'll acknowledge that, for some people, changing motherboards might be a bit of hassle. Depending on the case and cooler, removing the motherboard might have been necessary to change the CPU anyway. I'll admit that I'm a bit biased on this front. I've built like 30 gaming PC's since October of 2018 so I wouldn't give a second thought to having to swap a motherboard.

I think in the long term this is best move for AMD, AIB partners, and ultimately the customer. I'd much rather AMD spent time and resources making feature/driver improvements rather than putting out 8 different AGESA versions to get new CPU's to work with 3 year old motherboards. At the end of the day there is a tiny niche of people who are negatively impacted by this.
 

piokos

Senior member
Nov 2, 2018
554
206
86
I have to agree that this is pretty silly to get outraged about. Who is seriously negatively impacted by this?
Everyone who bought an AM4 mobo assuming it'll last him for longer than it can.

Once again: no one is criticizing the actual longevity of AMD motherboards. We can only compare to Intel and they're still better.
We're criticizing lack of clarity in marketing that led some people to bad buying decisions.
Your current motherboard didn't just become e-waste. You can still sell it.
But it lost value pretty much overnight.
 
Feb 4, 2009
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Everyone who bought an AM4 mobo assuming it'll last him for longer than it can.

Once again: no one is criticizing the actual longevity of AMD motherboards. We can only compare to Intel and they're still better.
We're criticizing lack of clarity in marketing that led some people to bad buying decisions.

But it lost value pretty much overnight.

Well yeah its a computer part.
 
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