Question B550 chipset, so AMD joins the dark side after all.

[Shivansps]

I just read the article...

So let me get this straight, this chipset is coming out like a year later, they did not even bother to add CPU PCI-E 4.0 uplink support or to increase the number of sata ports that is ALREADY a problem on every 6 sata B450 motherboard (NVME x4 disables the 2 SOC Sata, thus 6 sata B450 mbs losses 2 sata if NVME is used), and they even dare to futher reduce backguard compatibility?

I was not expecting for the PCI-E lanes FROM the chipset to be 4.0, but only USB 3.2 G2, no more satas, CPU link still 3.0 and the PCI-E lanes 3.0 is beyond disappointing.

 

[Hitman928]

How is AMD *not* and "evil company"? You're suggesting they're in this business for fun?

It's a company like any other. They're in this for profit.
Internally they're much like Intel. They just need to treat this a bit more seriously.

I guess I don't find companies trying to make money inherently evil. If that is the case, why aren't we revolting and not buying any of their products until they all turn into non-profits?

 

[maddie]

Oh, about the whole B450/X470 with PCIe 4 on the Processor Slots, I just found out that such a thing does exist: The OEM only B550A Chipset.
It is pretty much previous Promontory X470/B450 silicon with a shiny new name. So yes, AMD actually did it like 6 months ago or so. They just provide no such solution in the DIY market.



If it was made by AMD I would believe that it has PCIe ACS, since X570 had it. If it is made by ASMedia, I doubt so, too much of a niche feature and they don't have a good track record with those.
Also, do we know who is actually making the B550? I would find it weird that there are two different Chipset designs on a single generation.



Finally, since everyone is talking way too much about BIOS sizes, shrinking the AGESA with selective Processor support and the like, you may be interesed in reading THIS. I wrote it several months ago for a reason, but no one here paid attention to it. Now I'm sure that more people will be interesed.

Not saying you're wrong, but where is this Asrock B550 motherboard? The article talks about an upcoming board with leaked info. I can't find a real product.

The last sentence states 'In short, it looks like it’s going to be well worth the money and the wait, especially if it retains the ‘budget’ price tag of its previous generation B450 counterpart'
Going to be? Are you sure it exists?

 

[DrMrLordX]

@Hitman928

I think that link has some things confused. Just because someone last year mentioned that B550a might be rebranded B450 doesn't mean the B550AM is actually that product. It clearly isn't. That VRM config is completely abnormal for B450. It actually looks like an X570 board with an older Promontory grafted on to it. Which is probably what base B550 is anyway.

Going to be? Are you sure it exists?

Allegedly, Komachi leaked some manuals for the product. Whether or not they'll sell it outside of certain target markets remains unclear.

 

[Hitman928]

@Hitman928

I think that link has some things confused. Just because someone last year mentioned that B550a might be rebranded B450 doesn't mean the B550AM is actually that product. It clearly isn't. That VRM config is completely abnormal for B450. It actually looks like an X570 board with an older Promontory grafted on to it. Which is probably what base B550 is anyway.



Allegedly, Komachi leaked some manuals for the product. Whether or not they'll sell it outside of certain target markets remains unclear.

Yes, exactly. MB makers were already designing PCIe4 compliant boards so that is the basis of B550A, not B450 with a new sticker slapped on. If you look at the boards they are different than the B450 generation boards.

 

[Hitman928]

Here's a link to the user manual.

http://www.cyberpowerinc.com/drivers/Motherboards/MB-478-101%20B550AM%20GAMING/Manual/MB-478-101%20B550AM%20Gaming%20Manual.pdf

But there are some glaring issues such as listing the first slot as PCIe gen 4 with Zen and Zen+ CPUs installed. The boards exist, they were just OEM only so that OEMs would have a cheaper board to use to refresh their lineups with when the B550 chipset was delayed.

 

[piokos]

I guess I don't find companies trying to make money inherently evil. If that is the case, why aren't we revolting and not buying any of their products until they all turn into non-profits?

Misunderstanding.
I'm praising AMD for trying to be an "evil company" that makes money. As far as I'm concerned, they can change their socket every year.

But they have to communicate this to their clients. And communication clearly is a problem - not just with us, but with AIBs and OEMs as well.
I guess having proper datasheets on their website would be a good start.

 

[zir_blazer]

Looks just like a B550 motherboard. What's the actual difference? It doesn't look like a B450 rebrand at all.

Did you readed the link I provided there?

That theory came right from the horse’s mouth, too. Robert Hallock, AMD’s senior technical marketing manager, corrected a Reddit user who claimed to be showing off a system with a B550 motherboard. Hallock responded by saying “no, it has a B550A motherboard. This is a version of the PCIe Gen 3 “Promontory-LP” (e.g. X470, B450) chipset specifically for use in pre-built systems (e.g. OEM customers).” If this leak is a B550A chipset with PCIe 4.0, then why the correction? See, these situations wouldn’t come up if companies used consistent and easily understandable naming schemes.

Here you have the AsRock B550AM GAMING Manual. Sadly someone beat me up to it.

Chipset • AMD Promontory B550A

The only curious thing, is that you get PCIe 3 in the Chipset PCIe Slots whereas standard B450/X470 Promotorys are just 2.0. But if you have a high ranking AMD guy saying you that it is a Promontory, I'l take his word.

As far as I know, the B550A boards were redesigned boards to make them support newer features/CPUs. This was done for OEMs because the regular 550 chipset was delayed but board makers already had been preparing for their original release date so they had board designs that were ready for things such as PCIe4 and the new CPUs. For instance, I don't think there is an Asrock B450 board that you can point to and show that the 550a gaming is the same board, it is unique in their lineup.

I never implied that the Motherboards had to be the same, just that they could reuse the same Chipsets because the PCIe 4 support for the Processor PCIe Slots is totally independent of whatever Chipset you used.

 

[maddie]

Did you readed the link I provided there?



Here you have the AsRock B550AM GAMING Manual. Sadly someone beat me up to it.



The only curious thing, is that you get PCIe 3 in the Chipset PCIe Slots whereas standard B450/X470 Promotorys are just 2.0. But if you have a high ranking AMD guy saying you that it is a Promontory, I'l take his word.



I never implied that the Motherboards had to be the same, just that they could reuse the same Chipsets because the PCIe 4 support for the Processor PCIe Slots is totally independent of whatever Chipset you used.

"I never implied that the Motherboards had to be the same, just that they could reuse the same Chipsets because the PCIe 4 support for the Processor PCIe Slots is totally independent of whatever Chipset you used."

Isn't that probably the issue? Consistent PCIe4 signal integrity on boards designed for PCIe3.

 

[zir_blazer]

"I never implied that the Motherboards had to be the same, just that they could reuse the same Chipsets because the PCIe 4 support for the Processor PCIe Slots is totally independent of whatever Chipset you used."

Isn't that probably the issue? Consistent PCIe4 signal integrity on boards designed for PCIe3.

The issue is that you're confusing Motherboard design with Chipset used. You have to treat the PCIe Controller in the Processor and the one in the Chipset as two separate entities. One can do PCIe 4, the other just PCIe 2 (Or 3 in the case of the B550A). As simple as that.
Indeed that a Motherboard where the tracing between the Processor PCIe Slots and its PCIe Controller was designed with the PCIe 3 specification limits in mind may not be forward compatible with PCIe 4, and that is the whole reason why AMD blacklisted PCIe 4 support on non-X570 Chipsets (Since it was easier to filter out by Chipset, as all existing Motherboards should have been designed around PCIe 3 limits whereas X570 were supposed to support Matisse and PCIe 4 on the Chipset PCIe Ports, too). But you CAN design a new Motherboard with proper PCIe 4 signaling for the Processor PCIe Controller and an old Chipset, just that AMD decided not to allow so.

 

[Hitman928]

Did you readed the link I provided there?

That doesn't disagree with the point of my post.

Here you have the AsRock B550AM GAMING Manual. Sadly someone beat me up to it.

Yeah, that was me, lol.

I never implied that the Motherboards had to be the same, just that they could reuse the same Chipsets because the PCIe 4 support for the Processor PCIe Slots is totally independent of whatever Chipset you used.

That was never in question though. The argument you jumped into was that B450 boards should have been used and that AMD was just being mean by not allowing it to happen. It's possible that the B550A chipset has some very minor tweaks that, going along with the board updates, allows for PCIe3 connection to the CPU, I don't know, but again, that wasn't what was being discussed. If your point is that they could have used the updated boards with the B450 chipset, they probably could have. But then we get back into the logistics of having b450 boards where some have pcie4 support and some don't. You also have MB makers putting out new boards that have the same chipset which traditionally sets you up for less sales than giving it a new chipset because people want new/bigger numbers. Both of those issues being present wouldn't have given MB much reason to support this idea.

Edit: the B550 chipset delay (after delay, after delay) put AMD and MB makers into a tough spot and they made the best they could out of the situation. They needed to be clearer about compatibility, especially at the Zen2 launch, but outside of that people are being unrealistic as to what AMD should have done while ignoring all of the difficulties and cost in doing it. I'm pretty sure AMD will be taking notes from this and will hopefully be more careful with their marketing of roadmaps in the future. For consumers, roadmaps and future compatibility are never in stone, so you shouldn't build your whole plan around that idea.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Did you readed the link I provided there?

Yeah, it doesn't add up. What Hallock said is that it's a PCIe 3.0 board using some version of Promontory, but the board is actually PCIe 4.0 and has a different layout from any B450 I've ever seen. There's no way that is a tweaked B450. How long has it been available to OEMs?

 

[Rigg]

GN Covered the B550a a while back

 

[maddie]

The issue is that you're confusing Motherboard design with Chipset used. You have to treat the PCIe Controller in the Processor and the one in the Chipset as two separate entities. One can do PCIe 4, the other just PCIe 2 (Or 3 in the case of the B550A). As simple as that.
Indeed that a Motherboard where the tracing between the Processor PCIe Slots and its PCIe Controller was designed with the PCIe 3 specification limits in mind may not be forward compatible with PCIe 4, and that is the whole reason why AMD blacklisted PCIe 4 support on non-X570 Chipsets (Since it was easier to filter out by Chipset, as all existing Motherboards should have been designed around PCIe 3 limits whereas X570 were supposed to support Matisse and PCIe 4 on the Chipset PCIe Ports, too). But you CAN design a new Motherboard with proper PCIe 4 signaling for the Processor PCIe Controller and an old Chipset, just that AMD decided not to allow so.

I thought this whole thread was predicated on the assumption that AMD could provide support for older motherboards? I didn't see anyone claiming that a new design would not work. And so we're back to buying a new motherboard for Zen3. Whether we're getting a B550A or a B550 is irrelevant, it's a new purchase.

What is your point?

 

[Shivansps]

I thought this whole thread was predicated on the assumption that AMD could provide support for older motherboards? I didn't see anyone claiming that a new design would not work. And so we're back to buying a new motherboard for Zen3. Whether we're getting a B550A or a B550 is irrelevant, it's a new purchase.

What is your point?

#1
What? There are at least 2 pages of a user arguing with me exactly that. I was saying that B450 can support PCI-E 4.0 on main slot and NVME on new motherboards, but it was blocked so... Re-naming it B550A makes sence to detect new boards, and the fact this is a OEM only product provees my whole point, it was a business decision.

#2
Timing and CPU/chipset moneys makes the diference, if we had B550A a few months ago with full compatibility(that B550A manual mentions full compatibility with Raven, Picasso, Matisse, Pinnacle, Summit) , who would buy B550 with almost no gains and crippled compatibility now?

 

[maddie]

#1
What? There are at least 2 pages of a user arguing with me exactly that. I was saying that B450 can support PCI-E 4.0 on main slot and NVME on new motherboards, but it was blocked so... Re-naming it B550A makes sence to detect new boards, and the fact this is a OEM only product provees my whole point, it was a business decision.

#2
Timing and CPU/chipset moneys makes the diference, if we had B550A a few months ago with full compatibility(that B550A manual mentions full compatibility with Raven, Picasso, Matisse, Pinnacle, Summit) , who would buy B550 with almost no gains and crippled compatibility now?

Wasn't the issue if users were able to run Zen3 on all boards already purchased, or at least the 4xx series? Having the option to purchase a new board a few months ago capable of running next gen Zen will not change the fact that they can't. You were the one wanting support for B450 and others.

I'm confused here.

Do you want new boards, or do you want older boards being supported? A renamed B450 changes nothing.

 

[Rigg]

Please try to remember that not everyone is a gamer and not every desktop is built for that.

Sure. But I think it's pretty safe to assume they make up the overwhelming majority of the market that is affected by this news. With professional use likely being the second largest segment. In that case any buying decision should be analyzed on cost vs. productivity benefit so i'd argue the news is irrelevant.

And as far as gamers go, you still have to consider how their choices could have been affected.
Someone, having a particular budget, thought: "OK, so I can buy a more expensive X470 motherboard with a 2600, skip 3000-series and get the final AM4 generation for maximum PC life".
Someone else wanted to get a cheaper B550 motherboards, pair it with a Zen+ APU and replace with Zen2 or Zen3 APU at some point. Now he has to either get the expensive X570 or wait some more until 4000-series APUs appear. And what if they're much more expensive?

Scenario A: x470 w/2600

They still have 8 different zen 2 upgrades to choose from (if their GPU and Monitor is being held back by the 2600) and they want to keep using their current motherboard. They can sell the x470 and buy a B550 when zen 3 launches or upgrade to an x570 now. I seriously doubt the net cost would be more than $50 to do either. How much GPU and Monitor do they need to buy before a zen 2 becomes the bottleneck? An extra $50 is meaningless in this context considering the newer chipsets also have several other benefits besides 4000 compatibility.

Look at the GPU scaling in this video.

Even if we assume that a Zen 3 matches a 9900k gaming performance (which is probably wishful thinking) it's going to take a very powerful GPU being run at questionable quality settings to show any significant difference over Zen 2.

Scenario B: APU buyer

Pair the B550 with a 3100 and used RX card. Sell the discrete GPU when upgrading to a new APU. Or pair a dirt cheap a320 with a 2400g and flip it with the older APU when you want to upgrade to b550 Zen2/3 APU.

Neither of these scenarios is a great tragedy. In all honesty this decision by AMD probably prevented a lot people from making idiotic upgrades. For all the people that are disappointed by their "loss" of Zen 3 upgrade potential there are just as many 3900x and 3950x owners that should be happy that their CPU's will be worth more when they go to sell them several years from now.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Re-naming it B550A

It should be obvious to anyone who looks at the B550AM that it is a new layout. That is not "B450 renamed". Also, there is no way a 10-phase motherboard is going to retail for B450 prices.

 

[zir_blazer]

It should be obvious to anyone who looks at the B550AM that it is a new layout. That is not "B450 renamed". Also, there is no way a 10-phase motherboard is going to retail for B450 prices.

If you believe that the B550A Chipset is not a B450 renamed, go argue it with AMD's Robert Hallock. I already choosed who I am going to bet that wins that one...
It is me, or you're trying to infer that using a specific Chipset means that you're always forced to use the same Motherboard layout? And what the hell are the VRM phases related to the Chipset at all? I think you're mixing unrelated things.

 

[DrMrLordX]

If you believe that the B550A Chipset is not a B450 renamed, go argue it with AMD's Robert Hallock. I already choosed who I am going to bet that wins that one...

Hallock just called it a PCIe 3.0 motherboard. Clearly he was confused?

 

[therealmongo]

This is annoying. I bought a MSI max board with nice VRM's and a 2600 a few weeks ago for my wife's computer. The idea is that in 4-5 years when she felt the need to upgrade she could pick up a cheap zen 3 cpu. If I had known this earlier I could have bought a crappy b450 and given her my mobo when I upgrade. She can still get my 3700x when I upgrade I suppose.

Clearer messaging could have avoided people like me getting annoyed.

Yup, I would also be annoyed.

However from the stuff that happened before with regards to support for x370/Ryzen 2 etc, I somehow doubted that Zen3 would work on AM4

I really wonder about Class-action lawsuits against MSI for their "MAX" B450 motherboard marketing, clearly stating that they will be compatible with "all future AM4 CPUs". And then, either turn around and sue AMD, or probably not, maybe just "cut back" on supporting AMD. After all, MSI and the other ISVs are (partially) tied to their wagon right now.

But for sure, MSI is going to suffer losses, either right now, in terms of "bad PR" against their "MAX" series (because, you know, "what for???"), or actual loss of income, due to lawsuits or customers avoiding them for their (according to AMD's statements, now, possibly false claims *).

(*) See HardwareUnboxed video about this. Maybe MSI will pull off technical wizardry, and support all AM4 CPUs on their MAX boards... anyways. Just so they don't get sued. Maybe they can work out a deal with AMD to get ahold of the necessary "beta" AGESA code(s) to make that happen. Maybe even make it MSI-specific or MSI-exclusive, as a quid-pro-quo for AMD (apparently) stabbling MSI's documentation for their "MAX" boards in the back.

Or, maybe, in this era, it's just a "Nothingberder", and it will all blow over, and we won't still be discussing this next week.

I mean, it's not really like the worst thing in the world, Intel has been limiting their chipsets and platforms to an initial release and a refresh, since like... nearly forever? (Since the demise of Super Socket 7? Slot 1? Around then?) So for AMD to do ... "the same thing". Well, I get it, AMD fans thought that they were "different", and are now miffed. (Ok, I am too.)

But people that upgrade their CPUs, on the same motherboard, in the consumer space, are like a niche (desktop users) within a niche (enthusiasts) within a niche (upgraders).

All valid points,

the issue is, this is all hearsay, we really dont know the true picture, just bits and bods

We can only wait and see to what the outcome will be

amds communication was pretty bad in all this debacle, but this slide pretty much ends at the beginning of 2020.

Not meaning to be pedantic, but these slides do not say you cant upgrade your CPU to lets say a 3950x in the future,

just not to a Ryzen3 as it seems this time.

Not a good look to some (myself included), it is what it is ........

Pinned comment from a new HWUnboxed video:

So it's probably not the evil board partners conspring to sell more boards as some speculated. This was a very recent change from AMD and the partners themselves were surprised. They agree that the BIOS excuse is BS and they could easily make a workaround but AMD refuses to play ball (release AGESA for old boards).

Again, hearsay, we are only guessing who is at "fault"

Are you for real? AMD did something that right now left MSI in a really bad legal position, and they had first hand data, what about the regular people?
No one is saying that Intel is better, dont try to use Intel as a excuse. AMD needs to be clear with their marketing, plain and simple, if it is 3 gens whiout compatibility in both ways they should say it and be done with it, instead of trying to capitalize on a open interpretation.

I really dont care much about B450 not supporting future Zens since i fully expected this to happen after the 300 series issue back in the day and i not going to fight that war again agaist people defending a company, is not worth it.
I can fully understand the people that got a B450 motherboard because B550 was late, but the rest had to know this could happen.

What i do care is about the retrocompatibility of B550 motherboards being less than of X570, it is a 100% business decision, and a **** move.

Again, hearsay,

Do you work for MSI as it seems you are stating this as fact!

I tell you what I dont get and its always the same people.

It does not matter how far AMD has helped push Intel and helped evolve the stuff we love buying and playing with, its always the same people who will come and moan and make mountains out of mole hills.

Where is the respect and thankfulness that AMD exists and that we get the things we have in 2020 ???

Only moan moan moan

 

[PingSpike]

These B550A boards...whatever they are. Do those boards support Zen3? Some of the comments here almost make it sound like B550 is just B550A released to the masses. (PCI-e 3.0 board)

 

[Shivansps]

Wasn't the issue if users were able to run Zen3 on all boards already purchased, or at least the 4xx series? Having the option to purchase a new board a few months ago capable of running next gen Zen will not change the fact that they can't. You were the one wanting support for B450 and others.

I'm confused here.

Do you want new boards, or do you want older boards being supported? A renamed B450 changes nothing.

I said, several times in fact, that i expected AMD to cut B450 compatibility after what happened with the 300 series in 2019. And what really bothers me is that B550 offers almost nothing new compared to B450, and the absurd retro-compatibility limits compared to x570 of CPUs that arent EOL.

I do understand people upset about cutting B450 off new cpus but im not going to fight that war again. That was not unexpected all things considered.

The other thing ive mentioned is the posibility of OEMs making new motherboards supporting PCI-E 4.0 on main slot and NVME using B450 chipsets that was blocked by AMD. Maybe with a good reason (not allowing it on old motherboards), but it still means we could have got PCI-E 4.0 in mainstream faster, and probably cheaper than these B550.
I dont see anything that makes this not possible other than the AGESA block, now i found out that there is a "Promontory B550A" with exactly that but only for OEMs.

These B550A boards...whatever they are. Do those boards support Zen3? Some of the comments here almost make it sound like B550 is just B550A released to the masses. (PCI-e 3.0 board)

That part of the manual make it sound like PCI-E 4.0 is also enabled on Summit Ridge, PCI-E 3.0 on the 2nd slot may be a typo.

Also the chipset is said to be a "AMD Promontory B550A", in not sure whats the codename for the B550 is, but Promontory is for 400-Series.

 

[deathBOB]

Ignoring AMDs perpetually -redacted- communications, are there really that many people buying a budget chipset who were also looking to make a pretty minor jump from Zen 2 to Zen 3?

Profanity in the tech forums is prohibited.

Daveybrat
AT Moderator

 

[Topweasel]

Ignoring AMDs perpetually crappy communications, are there really that many people buying a budget chipset who were also looking to make a pretty minor jump from Zen 2 to Zen 3?

That's my line of thinking regarding it. Sure sucks you can't cap out at max performance and there is some opportunity for decent ST and MT improvements. But from Zen/Zen+ to Zen 2 you are getting upwards of twice the cores, 20-30% clock improvements, almost halved the power usage, 15% IPC increase. Its a substantial upgrade path. Zen 3 will bring a decent IPC improvement, but I suspect barely any clock, and no core count increases. Someone on a 2600 or cheap after Zen 2 came out 2700/x setup can still get a massive upgrade going to a discounted 3900x or 3950x after Zen 3 comes out, getting that massive value along with it. For AMD "entering the dark side" the upgrade path is still pretty fantastic. Just not as great as people hoped.

 

[piokos]

In that case any buying decision should be analyzed on cost vs. productivity benefit so i'd argue the news is irrelevant.

I don't even know what "productivity benefit" is. Can you measure it for gamers as well?

It's really not necessary to mention precise scenarios. Is a general issue.
You buy a CPU + mobo today (moment A). You'd like to upgrade in 2-3 years (moment B).
With Intel you expect that this will force replacing the motherboard - you buy 2 mobos and 2 CPUs.
With AMD you were being convinced that your motherboard will work.
So the only important question is: given the same budget for the PC, could that make you spend more initially (A)?

Ignoring AMDs perpetually shitty communications, are there really that many people buying a budget chipset who were also looking to make a pretty minor jump from Zen 2 to Zen 3?

Our assessment of this issue depends on which Zen2 and Zen3 CPUs will be in production 2-3 years from now.