Question B550 chipset, so AMD joins the dark side after all.

[Shivansps]

I just read the article...

So let me get this straight, this chipset is coming out like a year later, they did not even bother to add CPU PCI-E 4.0 uplink support or to increase the number of sata ports that is ALREADY a problem on every 6 sata B450 motherboard (NVME x4 disables the 2 SOC Sata, thus 6 sata B450 mbs losses 2 sata if NVME is used), and they even dare to futher reduce backguard compatibility?

I was not expecting for the PCI-E lanes FROM the chipset to be 4.0, but only USB 3.2 G2, no more satas, CPU link still 3.0 and the PCI-E lanes 3.0 is beyond disappointing.

 

[Rigg]

While that may be true, it still sucks! (Because I'm in that niche...)

Are you truly though? A 1600 is more than enough to keep up with a 560/470. Would you plan to step up to the tier of graphics card (and run a resolution) that would place a bottleneck on the CPU rather than GPU?

 

[Rigg]

Everyone who bought an AM4 mobo assuming it'll last him for longer than it can.

Once again: no one is criticizing the actual longevity of AMD motherboards. We can only compare to Intel and they're still better.
We're criticizing lack of clarity in marketing that led some people to bad buying decisions.

But it lost value pretty much overnight.

Who is the hypothetical customer who can afford enough GPU and monitor to make a zen 2 CPU the bottleneck but can't afford $100 for a new motherboard?

I'm not one to defend AMD's PR or marketing but Isn't what we've just been given clarity? 6 months ahead of the release no less. Sure I'd have preferred they told everybody the news last July but at least they didn't drop this bomb at the Zen 3 announcement.

Was it a bad buying decision?

Nearly any AM4 motherboard in existence supports zen 2 CPU's. Are we so confident that Zen 3 is going beat Zen 2 in price to performance once the zen 2 chips are discounted? Look at how ridiculous of a GPU and resolution pairing is required to show a significant difference between Intel and zen 2. A b450 & Zen 2 is going to continue to be an extremely good value after Zen 3 is out. Unless AMD does a complete 180 and doesn't heavily discount them after the new CPU's launch.

Given the current market a used 300/400 motherboard is probably worth more than it has been since the moment it was installed in its case.

 

[VirtualLarry]

A b450 & Zen 2 is going to continue to be an extremely good value after Zen 3 is out.

This is true, and I actually think, it may become the preferred platform of "budget gamers", even after Zen3 is released, similarly to how "budget gamers" today, were flocking to the "1600 AF" 6C/12T CPU. Which is out-paced (in SOME games, not all), by the Zen2-based 3300X, because of the lack of inter-CCX latency on that particular CPU. But for content-creation / scientific computing, which can use all of the cores that you can throw at it, at the same price point, the 1600 AF is virtually similar in gaming, and superior in content-creation. Only problem now is, they've raised the price on it to $150 MSRP, apparently.

 

[mrtastee]

Only problem now is, they've raised the price on it to $150 MSRP, apparently.

Source? Have they officially adjusted the MSRP, or are we simply seeing higher prices due to scalpers trying to take advantage of unsuspecting buyers?

 

[Rigg]

Only problem now is, they've raised the price on it to $150 MSRP, apparently.

I don't think the MSRP has changed. I think 3rd party sellers bought up all the stock and are price gouging because of high demand.

 

[maddogmcgee]

This is annoying. I bought a MSI max board with nice VRM's and a 2600 a few weeks ago for my wife's computer. The idea is that in 4-5 years when she felt the need to upgrade she could pick up a cheap zen 3 cpu. If I had known this earlier I could have bought a crappy b450 and given her my mobo when I upgrade. She can still get my 3700x when I upgrade I suppose.

Clearer messaging could have avoided people like me getting annoyed.

 

[Markfw]

BTW, has anybody here thought "well, when Zen 3 comes out if I have an x570 mobo I can put it in, and if I have another mobo, I have 3 generations of chips to upgrade to !"

Seriously, this is the worst whine I have seen. Intel doesn't even get this much whining with all the crap they do.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I really wonder about Class-action lawsuits against MSI for their "MAX" B450 motherboard marketing, clearly stating that they will be compatible with "all future AM4 CPUs". And then, either turn around and sue AMD, or probably not, maybe just "cut back" on supporting AMD. After all, MSI and the other ISVs are (partially) tied to their wagon right now.

But for sure, MSI is going to suffer losses, either right now, in terms of "bad PR" against their "MAX" series (because, you know, "what for???"), or actual loss of income, due to lawsuits or customers avoiding them for their (according to AMD's statements, now, possibly false claims *).

(*) See HardwareUnboxed video about this. Maybe MSI will pull off technical wizardry, and support all AM4 CPUs on their MAX boards... anyways. Just so they don't get sued. Maybe they can work out a deal with AMD to get ahold of the necessary "beta" AGESA code(s) to make that happen. Maybe even make it MSI-specific or MSI-exclusive, as a quid-pro-quo for AMD (apparently) stabbling MSI's documentation for their "MAX" boards in the back.

Or, maybe, in this era, it's just a "Nothingberder", and it will all blow over, and we won't still be discussing this next week.

I mean, it's not really like the worst thing in the world, Intel has been limiting their chipsets and platforms to an initial release and a refresh, since like... nearly forever? (Since the demise of Super Socket 7? Slot 1? Around then?) So for AMD to do ... "the same thing". Well, I get it, AMD fans thought that they were "different", and are now miffed. (Ok, I am too.)

But people that upgrade their CPUs, on the same motherboard, in the consumer space, are like a niche (desktop users) within a niche (enthusiasts) within a niche (upgraders).

 

[scannall]

But people that upgrade their CPUs, on the same motherboard, in the consumer space, are like a niche (desktop users) within a niche (enthusiasts) within a niche (upgraders).

While I got 4 different CPU's in my X58 machine, I really don't feel like doing that anymore.

 

[CHADBOGA]

BTW, has anybody here thought "well, when Zen 3 comes out if I have an x570 mobo I can put it in, and if I have another mobo, I have 3 generations of whips to upgrade to !"

Seriously, this is the worst whine I have seen. Intel doesn't even get this much whining with all the crap they do.

People know what they are getting with Intel and can adjust accordingly, AMD effectively misled consumers.

As it was, only by sheer luck, I avoided a small disaster here in that I was giving my friend the option of getting a 1600AF now and getting a Zen 3 later, or getting a 3600 now and just sticking with that. I said that I thought he should go with the 1600AF, providing he definitely got the Zen 3 in a few years time, as he will be looking to hang on to his system for quite a while.

Luckily for me, he went against the direction I told him I thought he should go and he went for the 3600 instead, as he doesn't want to bother with a CPU upgrade in a few years time.

I very nearly bought a MSI 450 Max board when I purchased one for my friend, as I thought of going the 1600AF route now and Zen 3 upgrade later.

The main reason I held off, was the announcement of the B550 Tomahawk Max, and being a bit unsettled by everything going on with Covid-19.

Despite the above, I accept this is not the greatest of transgressions by AMD, but it is a bit annoying still.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I am hoping that the consumer advocacy the tech press is engaging in over this, will bear fruit. My speculation is that this will go the way the xbox one drama went. MS made numerous announcements that were unfriendly to the consumer. The tech press did a full court press, consumers went full ham, resulting in MS reversing course/doing the best they could at damage control.

I am fairly confident that the current ham level will result in officially supported 4 series boards.

.

 

[piokos]

Well yeah its a computer part.

Was this supposed to be funny?

You know very well what I meant (at least I hope you do...).

Who is the hypothetical customer who can afford enough GPU and monitor to make a zen 2 CPU the bottleneck but can't afford $100 for a new motherboard?

Please try to remember that not everyone is a gamer and not every desktop is built for that.

And as far as gamers go, you still have to consider how their choices could have been affected.
Someone, having a particular budget, thought: "OK, so I can buy a more expensive X470 motherboard with a 2600, skip 3000-series and get the final AM4 generation for maximum PC life".
Someone else wanted to get a cheaper B550 motherboards, pair it with a Zen+ APU and replace with Zen2 or Zen3 APU at some point. Now he has to either get the expensive X570 or wait some more until 4000-series APUs appear. And what if they're much more expensive?

Seriously, this is the worst whine I have seen. Intel doesn't even get this much whining with all the crap they do.

Intel gets way, way more whining and you should know this better than most.

And with Intel everything is pretty well documented. You know what you're buying. You know it's not a platform for upgraders.
Buying AMD is still an adventure.

I remember when Ryzen launched and I asked on some forum: Why is the website so bad? Why are product so badly documented? Why do I have to learn stuff from forums and leaks/slides?
And answers from AMD fans were ranging from "they had a few rough years and can't afford a better website/documentation at the moment" to "that's what being an enthusiasts is about" (?).
3 years later basically nothing changed. Or maybe it's even worse: instead of improving the datasheets, AMD started posting youtube videos. Like on some frickin' vlog.

 

[coercitiv]

Seriously, this is the worst whine I have seen.

Seriously, it isn't.

 

[caswow]

amds communication was pretty bad in all this debacle, but this slide pretty much ends at the beginning of 2020.

 

[AtenRa]

Seriously, it isn't.

View attachment 20950

So, they will release ZEN 3 in January 1st 2021

 

[coercitiv]

amds communication was pretty bad in all this debacle, but this slide pretty much ends at the beginning of 2020.

Is that why 2020 is that much bigger in their marketing slide, because they wanted people to get the right idea about the extent of their support?

Here's a manipulated slide so you can compare the interpretation yourself.

 

[piokos]

amds communication was pretty bad in all this debacle, but this slide pretty much ends at the beginning of 2020.

Another badly executed, imprecise consumer information.
On other occasions AMD did state that AM4 will be supported "until 2020" or even "through 2020". But inevitably, they never explicitly said what "supported" means.

If you asked an AMD fan about this slide 2 years ago, he would quickly pacify you that it's full 2020.

Also, why do you think it's beginning of 2020? How do you know there's a linear time axis?
Have you seen this slide?


Anyway, this is exactly the argument we're raising. With AMD you have to guess things based on slides.
Do you really think that's OK?

 

[DrMrLordX]

AMD should name they processors better

There's no reason why the APUs should be one generation ahead in naming.

Seriously, this is the worst whine I have seen. Intel doesn't even get this much whining with all the crap they do.

Intel has Stockholm Syndrome on their side.

Seriously, it isn't.

View attachment 20950

So, they will release ZEN 3 in January 1st 2021

Referencing the above two comments:

If you look at the slide, it actually shows compatibility up until the end of 2019. Don't get me wrong, AMD has made comments in the past that would seem to indicate that Zen3/Vermeer would work in existing motherboards, and they certainly didn't do anything in 2019 to disabuse us of that notion. But that slide doesn't say anything about AM4 compatibility through 2020.

 

[coercitiv]

If you look at the slide, it actually shows compatibility up until the end of 2019. Don't get me wrong, AMD has made comments in the past that would seem to indicate that Zen3/Vermeer would work in existing motherboards, and they certainly didn't do anything in 2019 to disabuse us of that notion. But that slide doesn't say anything about AM4 compatibility through 2020.

Look at the slide again, look at the way they weighed font sizes and ask yourself honestly: up until the more recent compatibility announcements did you have serious concerns regarding 400 series compatibility ending with Ryzen 3000? Look at the manipulated slide I made above your post, see the difference in message from simple weight adjustment.

If AMD made it clear support was ending at the beginning of 2020, how come our entire forum failed to notice that up until a few days ago? It's time for a sanity check, either for us or AMD.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Look at the slide again, look at the way they weighed font sizes

I know what you are trying to say, but remember, these slides come from marketing departments. They're almost as bad as the weasels in sales. It's all about plausible deniability baby.

 

[coercitiv]

I know what you are trying to say, but remember, these slides come from marketing departments. They're almost as bad as the weasels in sales.

I know it's all marketing, but the press & consumer reaction are also stemmed from marketing.

It's all about plausible deniability baby.

Plausible deniability helps you in the court of law, not the court of public opinion.

 

[AtenRa]

In roadmaps slides, every company states that the roadmap is subject to change.
So dont ever try to use a roadmap like it is written in stone.

* Planned AMD Socket support until 2020. Subject to future roadmap modifications

 

[piokos]

In roadmaps slides, every company states that the roadmap is subject to change.
So dont ever try to use a roadmap like it is written in stone.

That's NOT what has happened in this situation.
Yes, a company is entitled to change a roadmap - cancel or delay some future product, change the specs etc. Absolutely.
The key word here is: future.

But this slide isn't just about future. It's also about the present.
It's about AM4 motherboards that you can buy at given time and that - according to this slide - should support all AM4 CPUs.
That's how I can understand it. And that's how AMD fans understood it until recently - praising how fantastic it will be to put a Zen3 in their 2018 motherboard and so on.

But of course you're right. There is the "subject to future modifications" footnote.
More importantly, AMD has never explicitly said what "upgrade" and "support" means.

Because even if each chipset worked with just a single CPU generation, I could still replace my Ryzen 1500 with 1800X, right? Is it an upgrade? Yes. They just need to make that 1800X until 2020.

* Planned AMD Socket support until 2020. Subject to future roadmap modifications

Until an actual legal agreement happens (e.g. buying a CPU), pretty much nothing is legally binding. AMD could have written:
Vega will be as efficient as Nvidia Pascal*
or
Zen3 will guess lottery numbers with 97% success*
Absolutely no consequences. They tried, but it didn't work.

In essence, this is exactly what we're talking about: how AMD designs their marketing materials and campaigns. And how it affects users' choices.
But some will keep defending AMD no matter what.

 

[DrMrLordX]

I know it's all marketing, but the press & consumer reaction are also stemmed from marketing.

Plausible deniability helps you in the court of law, not the court of public opinion.

Tell that to AMD's marketing department? There's something going on behind the scenes (presumably between AMD and the OEMs) that AMD has decided not to tell us. Probably because it would upset the board partners. But I'm guessing. So when you are in a situation like that, you fall back on any little hole you can use to weasel out of a situation. Such as:

In roadmaps slides, every company states that the roadmap is subject to change.

Everything is subject to change. That's why there's an asterisk. There's always an asterisk.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Unless you are the type of person who buys new motherboards for their old CPUs.

Alright, alright. It's happened a few times...

Admitting you've got a hardware problem is the first step to a cure.

When you've got a perfectly useable CPU, some additional components lying about and just need a cheapo mainboard, why not assemble them into something useful for the F&F segment?

Budget restricted gamers probably don't have enough GPU for zen 3 to offer much over zen 2 regardless.

...and would probably benefit more from a GPU upgrade anyway IMHO. That's usually the "weakest" part of a budget gaming build.