Back to Constitutional Conservatism

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
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Now that Mitt Romney has lost, virtually everyone agrees that the Republican Party needs to change. Liberals say the GOP needs to become more moderate. Conservatives say it has become too moderate. In a way, both sides are right — and wrong.

The moderate Republican ticket that liberals and GOP establishment types covet has been tried recently: Mitt Romney and John McCain. Conservatives are right that a more moderate Republican Party is not the answer.

What many of them are wrong about is conservatism. To turn on talk radio or watch Fox News is not to experience the philosophy of Bill Buckley, the rhetoric of Ronald Reagan, or even something like the free market proposals of Jack Kemp. Aside from Paul Ryan’s proposals for entitlement reform—one of the few tangibly conservative and positive differences that separated the Romney and Obama tickets—the populist Right remained stuck on stupid: The President “apologizes” for America; the U.S is threatened by Sharia Law; “Where’s the birth certificate?” Obama eats dog. Donald Trump. Dinesh D’Souza.

Demagoguery, partisanship, and conspiracy theories do not represent ideas. They represent a lack of them. Throw in some clumsy language about “legitimate rape” and couple it with Romney’s Dubya impression on foreign policy, and Americans saw a “conservatism” they didn’t want. Who can blame them

-snip

This is the truth IMO. I honestly don't think we will ever go back to a Constitutional government. We are too far down the road of liberalism for that to change now.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
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This is the truth IMO. I honestly don't think we will ever go back to a Constitutional government. We are too far down the road of liberalism for that to change now.

Basically Jack Hunter understands that is it time to ditch the neocon and bible-thumper coalitition and adopt more Libertarian platforms if the GOP is to succeed.

Roe v. Wade has long been the heart of the pro-life movement, which if overturned would allow the states to decide the abortion issue. States are now deciding on the issue of gay marriage and drugs in ways that wouldn’t have been politically possible a decade ago. As public attitudes shift on abortion, so may the politics—and constitutional conservatives could stand ready to make the most effective pro-life arguments in the history of the movement.

If youth attitudes could shift the abortion debate, the same could be true concerning our greatest financial drain: entitlements. Unlike their parents, younger Americans do the math and do not expect Social Security and Medicare to survive. The same could be true concerning youth attitudes toward the second greatest drain on resources: A counterproductive and costly foreign policy. Unlike their parents, young people can comprehend an America that does not play policeman or provider to the world while the next generation foots the bill.

A platform of constitutionally limited government, individual freedom, and personal responsibility could provide fresh answers to the old questions that now impede the GOP’s electoral success. This is not a departure from conservatism but a return to it.

Or the Republican Party can keep recycling Bush-isms—promising more government, war, and less freedom. Constitutional conservatism is the way forward. Conservatism defined as simply hating Democrats will remain a ticket to nowhere.

The lesson of 2012 is that the Republican Party must truly become the limited government party it has always pretended to be—or it will die.
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
Basically Jack Hunter understands that is it time to ditch the neocon and bible-thumper coalitition and adopt more Libertarian platforms if the GOP is to succeed.

Exactly.

There is no need to go back to the 18th century.

"A platform of constitutionally limited government, individual freedom, and personal responsibility"

This is your 18th Century? LOL
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
0
0
What exactly is 'constitutional conservatism'? Is that like bringing back slavery or something? Getting rid of women's right to vote?

Conservatism by its nature is against the Constitution. Liberalism is the only form of constitutional government, not conservatism.
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
What exactly is 'constitutional conservatism'? Is that like bringing back slavery or something? Getting rid of women's right to vote?

Conservatism by its nature is against the Constitution. Liberalism is the only form of constitutional government, not conservatism.

LOL
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Adopting the core principals, the core foundation of philosophy of individual freedom and less government intrusion in the lives of Americans is going back toward the path of liberty.

Funny, I thought a Constitutionally Conservative government was one which the American people exercised Self Rule through its representation to determine exactly how the country should proceed, albeit under the structure of the Constitution.

But hey, if you think that being "Constitutionally Conservative" means we should anchor the entire country to 18th century economics, science, world trade, education and socio demographics, go right ahead. But trust me, 95% of the country knows you're full of shit and will never vote for you. That's why you have never garnered more attention than some street freak shouting about sinners and fornicators going to hell.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
I don't want to beat this to death but the GOP is dead and should be buried. This, to hasten the demise of the Republic. We can't pull out of the fiscal nightmare we've created. Anyone paying attention knows this. Politicians like to dance around the issue, will give it only lip service and will never get any cooperation to actually address this problem. Boehner spoke of it today and in the process threw the ball to Obama asking him to lead. Obama answered that he'd entertain any ideas. Translation - he has none of his own because the economy has not been on his to-do list in the first term. He's got a full plate in losing Hillary and Holder for certain and maybe more. I guess we need to find out what Valerie Jarrett wants to do regarding the economy as she is rumored to be the one truly in charge.

So, as I've said several times earlier, I'd like to see the GOP roll over, play dead and give Obama and the left everything they want. Let's hasten the demise so that we can rebuild sooner. It's gonna hurt regardless of how it plays out but I've got to believe that short and quick is going to be better than long and drawn out. I think it's very important to remember that the dependency problem in this nation has surpassed the point of return. We can't go back. There is no orderly way to maintain the lifestyles of the millions and millions who live off the government. A government that is bankrupt.

Get the GOP out of the equation, the Dems will for certain fail and take themselves out in the process. The roll of the dice is of course what political system will emerge after the fires are extinguished. I guarantee it will be interesting.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
I don't want to beat this to death but the GOP is dead and should be buried. This, to hasten the demise of the Republic. We can't pull out of the fiscal nightmare we've created. Anyone paying attention knows this. Politicians like to dance around the issue, will give it only lip service and will never get any cooperation to actually address this problem. Boehner spoke of it today and in the process threw the ball to Obama asking him to lead. Obama answered that he'd entertain any ideas. Translation - he has none of his own because the economy has not been on his to-do list in the first term. He's got a full plate in losing Hillary and Holder for certain and maybe more. I guess we need to find out what Valerie Jarrett wants to do regarding the economy as she is rumored to be the one truly in charge.

So, as I've said several times earlier, I'd like to see the GOP roll over, play dead and give Obama and the left everything they want. Let's hasten the demise so that we can rebuild sooner. It's gonna hurt regardless of how it plays out but I've got to believe that short and quick is going to be better than long and drawn out. I think it's very important to remember that the dependency problem in this nation has surpassed the point of return. We can't go back. There is no orderly way to maintain the lifestyles of the millions and millions who live off the government. A government that is bankrupt.

Get the GOP out of the equation, the Dems will for certain fail and take themselves out in the process. The roll of the dice is of course what political system will emerge after the fires are extinguished. I guarantee it will be interesting.

Ahh, the "I don't like losing the game so let's not put the toys away but burn them", strategy. (aka, the whiny bitch).

The fiscal problem is relatively easy to solve. The Dems did it before. Cutting the military back to 2001 levels (adjusted for inflation) would be about 1/4 of the current deficit. Rolling back the Bush tax cuts is about another 1/4, then shrinking some other government entities could get most of the remainder taken care of. However, the GOP doesn't want any of that. So yes, let them die.
 

MooseNSquirrel

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2009
2,587
318
126
Adopting the core principals, the core foundation of philosophy of individual freedom and less government intrusion in the lives of Americans is going back toward the path of liberty.

Yeah thats right up there with "visualize world peace".

Exactly.



"A platform of constitutionally limited government, individual freedom, and personal responsibility"

This is your 18th Century? LOL

Those 3 things exist within the context of the modernworld I live in and I get to enjoy them every day.

A libertarian interpretation would take us back to the 18th century.

Sorry, but we aint competing with 18th century countries.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
Funny, I thought a Constitutionally Conservative government was one which the American people exercised Self Rule through its representation to determine exactly how the country should proceed, albeit under the structure of the Constitution.

But hey, if you think that being "Constitutionally Conservative" means we should anchor the entire country to 18th century economics, science, world trade, education and socio demographics, go right ahead. But trust me, 95% of the country knows you're full of shit and will never vote for you. That's why you have never garnered more attention than some street freak shouting about sinners and fornicators going to hell.

Nice distortion but moving toward securing our individual freedoms and limiting the damage government can cause in many areas of life is not returning to the 18th century. It is preserving our fundamental freedoms on every level, socially and economically.

Your issue and problem I suspect is as long there is a "D" in front of your guy you will accept everything which is shoveled your way using collectivist appeals of a "fairer world" even if it brought to you through the abuse of government's power against the individual.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
Yeah thats right up there with "visualize world peace".



Those 3 things exist within the context of the modernworld I live in and I get to enjoy them every day.

A libertarian interpretation would take us back to the 18th century.

Sorry, but we aint competing with 18th century countries.

You'd like to believe that you can enjoy those ideas up until the big government uses it authority and force to crack the whip and let you know whose in charge.

 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
Ahh, the "I don't like losing the game so let's not put the toys away but burn them", strategy. (aka, the whiny bitch).

The fiscal problem is relatively easy to solve. The Dems did it before. Cutting the military back to 2001 levels (adjusted for inflation) would be about 1/4 of the current deficit. Rolling back the Bush tax cuts is about another 1/4, then shrinking some other government entities could get most of the remainder taken care of. However, the GOP doesn't want any of that. So yes, let them die.
Unfunded liabilities is the monster under the bed. It is very important to remember for those that want to deal in the cold hard truth that Clinton had a balanced budget on paper. It never really existed and was never achieved. We can argue about how that transpired, but it is important, for those that want to deal in reality, to understand that.

And if you think that our national debt is nothing to be concerned about, I am respectfully going to have to bow out of the discussion. This is not a problem based in a single issue. It is a problem a long time coming with many facets to it. It's a systemic problem that cannot be cured by correcting one phase of it. Deficit, debt, borrowing, entitlements, spending. All out of control.

Your feeling about toys and my outlook on this is not correct. I am a good loser. It's not rooted in the loss of the Presidency. The two parties are corrupt to their core and any retreats they make are short lived. The system needs a reset. The GOP is the underdog. Neuter them and start over. Also, don't think I really think this is going to happen. I throw all this out for thought and contemplation.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Nice distortion but moving toward securing our individual freedoms and limiting the damage government can cause in many areas of life is not returning to the 18th century. It is preserving our fundamental freedoms on every level, socially and economically.

Your issue and problem I suspect is as long there is a "D" in front of your guy you will accept everything which is shoveled your way using collectivist appeals of a "fairer world" even if it brought to you through the abuse of government's power against the individual.

What individual freedoms do you lack? Personally, I am just fine with most of mine. I would agree that some need to be taken back but going back to the "freedoms" of the 18th century aren't very appealing.

If you want to play the pigeon-hole game here's my go at it. You're either some guy who lives in their parent's basement (like Anarchist) or you're a guy who is some low-level hack at a shit company and you lack any significant education. Your basic idea is that you've been fucked your entire life and now you need to "get back" at everybody by ripping shit apart since you see "the man" as holding you back from your libertopian paradise (that's never existed nor will it).
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,025
6,596
126
I honestly don't think we will ever go back to a Constitutional government. We are too far down the road of liberalism for that to change now.

Yes, so true. That is why I intend to be the greatest progressive the world has ever seen. I always say if you can't beat them you lead them. The Light of the Moon is my Shepard, I shall not stumble around in the dark. In the darkness of the world around us is the ultimate in parsimony, it takes so little light to see.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,025
6,596
126
What individual freedoms do you lack? Personally, I am just fine with most of mine. I would agree that some need to be taken back but going back to the "freedoms" of the 18th century aren't very appealing.

If you want to play the pigeon-hole game here's my go at it. You're either some guy who lives in their parent's basement (like Anarchist) or you're a guy who is some low-level hack at a shit company and you lack any significant education. Your basic idea is that you've been fucked your entire life and now you need to "get back" at everybody by ripping shit apart since you see "the man" as holding you back from your libertopian paradise (that's never existed nor will it).

We were born in the Garden of Eden and it was taken from us. We were born whole and perfect and then divided against ourselves. Our slavery is due to the delusion we see called duality, the ability to separate ourselves into differing entities, the self that sinned and is worthless, and the self that blames it's divided other. PC Surgeon sees his enemy out there so he can't take the healing journey that leads through hell.
 

Juror No. 8

Banned
Sep 25, 2012
1,108
0
0
What's so great about the Constitution? I can't understand this nonsensical "limited government" mythology surrounding it. It always was and still is a piece of shit. I can provide two reasons why:

1. It served as the end-all-be-all legal justification for human chattel slavery for over 70 years in America. And that was no accident or loophole either, as many of the Founding Dads were wealthy landowners who loved them some "free" slave labor.

2. It has done absolutely NOTHING, in practice, to limit the size of government. Never has, never will. In fact, its ambiguous wording and nebulous intent has served to pave the way for our current monstrosity of a lawless, tyrannical government.

Wake the eff up already. There's no such thing as "limited government". Limited government is your classic oxymoron. You can't limit a legal monopoly on the use of aggressive force, which is precisely what government represents. The only entity powerful enough to limit government is another government (hint: competition).

The only result going back to constitutionally limited government will bring is the same result we already got the last time we tried it.
 

zanejohnson

Diamond Member
Nov 29, 2002
7,054
17
81
What's so great about the Constitution? I can't understand this nonsensical "limited government" mythology surrounding it. It always was and still is a piece of shit. I can provide two reasons why:

1. It served as the end-all-be-all legal justification for human chattel slavery for over 70 years in America. And that was no accident or loophole either, as many of the Founding Dads were wealthy landowners who loved them some "free" slave labor.

2. It has done absolutely NOTHING, in practice, to limit the size of government. Never has, never will. In fact, its ambiguous wording and nebulous intent has served to pave the way for our current monstrosity of a lawless, tyrannical government.

Wake the eff up already. There's no such thing as "limited government". Limited government is your classic oxymoron. You can't limit a legal monopoly on the use of aggressive force, which is precisely what government represents. The only entity powerful enough to limit government is another government (hint: competition).

The only result going back to constitutionally limited government will bring is the same result we already got the last time we tried it.



exactly, it's either no government, or this.. this is what this level is..

we either rise above it (no government, eutopia) or we stay put...
 
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