Back to Constitutional Conservatism

[Juror No. 8]

So your society revolves around respect of individual freedom? This assumes that everyone would agree and not take advantage of whatever situation may arise.

No it doesn't. My society assumes that there will be people who will act irrationally or will attempt to exploit others every chance they get. My society assumes that the best response to such people is to fight them at every turn, and don't ever allow them to form a government with which they can legalize their exploitative behavior.

Even if the 'group' shunned this selfish individual there will be other who will not because of need/desire. You cannot stop this entirely.

So? In an anarchist society, if you decide to side with a psychopath that wants to turn society into his own personal cotton plantation, you'll become the enemy and will have to sleep with one eye open at all times.

Only way this works if we become Borg.

Not really, because your assumption, that everyone will want, need, or desire to become an exploitative psychopath is nonsensical.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

LOL, is that why you write a novel every time I briefly respond to you?

Just admit it, you're hopelessly obsessed with me.

He doesn't get that you don't do common sense.

Or that you are a fascist rather than the libertian you purport yourself to be. You want individual freedoms ONLY ON YOUR TERMS.

Most tea party cunts are just like that, stupid i mean.

 

[Juror No. 8]

He doesn't get that you don't do common sense.

Or that you are a fascist rather than the libertian you purport yourself to be. You want individual freedoms ONLY ON YOUR TERMS.

Most tea party cunts are just like that, stupid i mean.

LOL, right, I do common sense so poorly that you've all but abandoned debating me directly. I've reduced you to quick, ineffective drive-bys.

As usual, you're not making any sense. Fascism is the melding of government and corporate power. Corporations are completely dependent on government for their legal status and protection. And I am as hostile to government as anyone on this board. So how can I be a fascist if I wish to destroy government?

The problem is you don't understand any of the words or concepts you are discussing, Child Left Behind. You're a clown, and it drives you crazy that I don't take you seriously. LOL.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I am a manlet short and stout here is my penis and here is my penis, LOOK AT IT! WHY WON'T YOU LOOK AT IT!!!

No thanks.

 

[Buxaroo]

What's false about it, specifically? A robber says, "give me your money, or else!". The government says, "give us your money, or else!". If you don't give a robber the money he demands, he's likely to bring harm to you. If you don't give a government the money they demand, they are likely to bring harm to you.

Looks pretty much the same to me.

Of course it does. Theft is theft. It doesn't matter if it comes in the form of a pickpocket or a government. The definition is still the same.

What else have you got?

OK, since taxes is theft, please leave the country or form another based on a government that doesn't use taxes for this purported utopia. But before you do, please have a read of the following:

If you’re a conservative who hates taxes, please do the following.
Do not use Medicare.
Do not use Social Security
Do not become a member of the US military, who are paid with tax dollars.
Do not ask the National Guard to help you after a disaster.
Do not call 911 when you get hurt.
Do not call the police to stop intruders in your home.
Do not summon the fire department to save your burning home.
Do not drive on any paved road, highway, and interstate or drive on any bridge.
Do not use public restrooms.
Do not send your kids to public schools.
Do not put your trash out for city garbage collectors.
Do not live in areas with clean air.
Do not drink clean water.
Do not visit National Parks.
Do not visit public museums, zoos, and monuments.
Do not eat or use FDA inspected food and medicines.
Do not bring your kids to public playgrounds.
Do not walk or run on sidewalks.
Do not use public recreational facilities such as basketball and tennis courts.
Do not seek shelter facilities or food in soup kitchens when you are homeless and hungry.
Do not apply for educational or job training assistance when you lose your job.
Do not apply for food stamps when you can’t feed your children.
Do not use the judiciary system for any reason.
Do not ask for an attorney when you are arrested and do not ask for one to be assigned to you by the court.
Do not apply for any Pell Grants.
Do not use cures that were discovered by labs using federal dollars.
Do not fly on federally regulated airplanes.
Do not use any product that can trace its development back to NASA.
Do not watch the weather provided by the National Weather Service.
Do not listen to severe weather warnings from the National Weather Service.
Do not listen to tsunami, hurricane, or earthquake alert systems.
Do not apply for federal housing.
Do not use the internet, which was developed by the military.
Do not swim in clean rivers.
Do not allow your child to eat school lunches or breakfasts.
Do not ask for FEMA assistance when everything you own gets wiped out by disaster.
Do not ask the military to defend your life and home in the event of a foreign invasion.
Do not use your cell phone or home telephone.
Do not buy firearms that wouldn’t have been developed without the support of the US Government and military. That includes most of them.
Do not eat USDA inspected produce and meat.
Do not apply for government grants to start your own business.
Do not apply to win a government contract.
Do not buy any vehicle that has been inspected by government safety agencies.
Do not buy any product that is protected from poisons, toxins, etc…by the Consumer Protection Agency.
Do not save your money in a bank that is FDIC insured.
Do not use Veterans benefits or military health care.
Do not use the G.I. Bill to go to college.
Do not apply for unemployment benefits.
Do not use any electricity from companies regulated by the Department of Energy.
Do not live in homes that are built to code.
Do not run for public office. Politicians are paid with taxpayer dollars.
Do not ask for help from the FBI, S.W.A.T, the bomb squad, Homeland Security, State troopers, etc…
Do not apply for any government job whatsoever as all state and federal employees are paid with tax dollars.
Do not use public libraries.
Do not use the US Postal Service.
Do not visit the National Archives.
Do not visit Presidential Libraries.
Do not use airports that are secured by the federal government.
Do not apply for loans from any bank that is FDIC insured.
Do not ask the government to help you clean up after a tornado.
Do not ask the Department of Agriculture to provide a subsidy to help you run your farm.
Do not take walks in National Forests.
Do not ask for taxpayer dollars for your oil company.
Do not ask the federal government to bail your company out during recessions.
Do not seek medical care from places that use federal dollars.
Do not use Medicaid.
Do not use WIC.
Do not use electricity generated by Hoover Dam.
Do not use electricity or any service provided by the Tennessee Valley Authority.
Do not ask the Army Corps of Engineers to rebuild levees when they break.
Do not let the Coast Guard save you from drowning when your boat capsizes at sea.
Do not ask the government to help evacuate you when all hell breaks loose in the country you are in.
Do not visit historic landmarks.
Do not visit fisheries.
Do not expect to see animals that are federally protected because of the Endangered Species List.
Do not expect plows to clear roads of snow and ice so your kids can go to school and so you can get to work.
Do not hunt or camp on federal land.
Do not work anywhere that has a safe workplace because of government regulations.
Do not use public transportation.
Do not drink water from public water fountains.
Do not whine when someone copies your work and sells it as their own. Government enforces copyright laws.
Do not expect to own your home, car, or boat. Government organizes and keeps all titles.
Do not expect convicted felons to remain off the streets.
Do not eat in restaurants that are regulated by food quality and safety standards.
Do not seek help from the US Embassy if you need assistance in a foreign nation.
Do not apply for a passport to travel outside of the United States.
Do not apply for a patent when you invent something.
Do not adopt a child through your local, state, or federal governments. 89.Do not use elevators that have been inspected by federal or state safety regulators.
Do not use any resource that was discovered by the USGS.
Do not ask for energy assistance from the government.
Do not move to any other developed nation, because the taxes are much higher.
Do not go to a beach that is kept clean by the state.
Do not use money printed by the US Treasury.
Do not complain when millions more illegal immigrants cross the border because there are no more border patrol agents.
Do not attend a state university.
Do not see any doctor that is licensed through the state.
Do not use any water from municipal water systems.
Do not complain when diseases and viruses, that were once fought around the globe by the US government and CDC, reach your house.
Do not work for any company that is required to pay its workers a livable wage, provide them sick days, vacation days, and benefits.
Do not expect to be able to vote on election days. Government provides voting booths, election day officials, and voting machines which are paid for with taxes.
Do not ride trains. The railroad was built with government financial assistance.

And if you say "corporations can do these better", please show me the proof. Not blogger theorcrafting, not Ayn Randroid nonsense, not "wishful thinking", let me see these governments you think we can have. Somalia is a good utopia, they collect no taxes and their country is working great! People all get along just fine and never need government intervention.

 

[Juror No. 8]

OK, since taxes is theft, please leave the country or form another based on a government that doesn't use taxes for this purported utopia.

No, you leave. If you want to rob people and form a government Mafia, do it someplace where you are wanted. I don't want you here.

But before you do, please have a read of the following:

If you’re a conservative who hates taxes, please do the following.
Do not use Medicare.
Do not use Social Security
Do not become a member of the US military, who are paid with tax dollars.
Do not ask the National Guard to help you after a disaster.
Do not call 911 when you get hurt.
Do not call the police to stop intruders in your home.
Do not summon the fire department to save your burning home.
Do not drive on any paved road, highway, and interstate or drive on any bridge.
Do not use public restrooms.
Do not send your kids to public schools.
Do not put your trash out for city garbage collectors.
Do not live in areas with clean air.
Do not drink clean water.
Do not visit National Parks.
Do not visit public museums, zoos, and monuments.
Do not eat or use FDA inspected food and medicines.
Do not bring your kids to public playgrounds.
Do not walk or run on sidewalks.
Do not use public recreational facilities such as basketball and tennis courts.
Do not seek shelter facilities or food in soup kitchens when you are homeless and hungry.
Do not apply for educational or job training assistance when you lose your job.
Do not apply for food stamps when you can’t feed your children.
Do not use the judiciary system for any reason.
Do not ask for an attorney when you are arrested and do not ask for one to be assigned to you by the court.
Do not apply for any Pell Grants.
Do not use cures that were discovered by labs using federal dollars.
Do not fly on federally regulated airplanes.
Do not use any product that can trace its development back to NASA.
Do not watch the weather provided by the National Weather Service.
Do not listen to severe weather warnings from the National Weather Service.
Do not listen to tsunami, hurricane, or earthquake alert systems.
Do not apply for federal housing.
Do not use the internet, which was developed by the military.
Do not swim in clean rivers.
Do not allow your child to eat school lunches or breakfasts.
Do not ask for FEMA assistance when everything you own gets wiped out by disaster.
Do not ask the military to defend your life and home in the event of a foreign invasion.
Do not use your cell phone or home telephone.
Do not buy firearms that wouldn’t have been developed without the support of the US Government and military. That includes most of them.
Do not eat USDA inspected produce and meat.
Do not apply for government grants to start your own business.
Do not apply to win a government contract.
Do not buy any vehicle that has been inspected by government safety agencies.
Do not buy any product that is protected from poisons, toxins, etc…by the Consumer Protection Agency.
Do not save your money in a bank that is FDIC insured.
Do not use Veterans benefits or military health care.
Do not use the G.I. Bill to go to college.
Do not apply for unemployment benefits.
Do not use any electricity from companies regulated by the Department of Energy.
Do not live in homes that are built to code.
Do not run for public office. Politicians are paid with taxpayer dollars.
Do not ask for help from the FBI, S.W.A.T, the bomb squad, Homeland Security, State troopers, etc…
Do not apply for any government job whatsoever as all state and federal employees are paid with tax dollars.
Do not use public libraries.
Do not use the US Postal Service.
Do not visit the National Archives.
Do not visit Presidential Libraries.
Do not use airports that are secured by the federal government.
Do not apply for loans from any bank that is FDIC insured.
Do not ask the government to help you clean up after a tornado.
Do not ask the Department of Agriculture to provide a subsidy to help you run your farm.
Do not take walks in National Forests.
Do not ask for taxpayer dollars for your oil company.
Do not ask the federal government to bail your company out during recessions.
Do not seek medical care from places that use federal dollars.
Do not use Medicaid.
Do not use WIC.
Do not use electricity generated by Hoover Dam.
Do not use electricity or any service provided by the Tennessee Valley Authority.
Do not ask the Army Corps of Engineers to rebuild levees when they break.
Do not let the Coast Guard save you from drowning when your boat capsizes at sea.
Do not ask the government to help evacuate you when all hell breaks loose in the country you are in.
Do not visit historic landmarks.
Do not visit fisheries.
Do not expect to see animals that are federally protected because of the Endangered Species List.
Do not expect plows to clear roads of snow and ice so your kids can go to school and so you can get to work.
Do not hunt or camp on federal land.
Do not work anywhere that has a safe workplace because of government regulations.
Do not use public transportation.
Do not drink water from public water fountains.
Do not whine when someone copies your work and sells it as their own. Government enforces copyright laws.
Do not expect to own your home, car, or boat. Government organizes and keeps all titles.
Do not expect convicted felons to remain off the streets.
Do not eat in restaurants that are regulated by food quality and safety standards.
Do not seek help from the US Embassy if you need assistance in a foreign nation.
Do not apply for a passport to travel outside of the United States.
Do not apply for a patent when you invent something.
Do not adopt a child through your local, state, or federal governments. 89.Do not use elevators that have been inspected by federal or state safety regulators.
Do not use any resource that was discovered by the USGS.
Do not ask for energy assistance from the government.
Do not move to any other developed nation, because the taxes are much higher.
Do not go to a beach that is kept clean by the state.
Do not use money printed by the US Treasury.
Do not complain when millions more illegal immigrants cross the border because there are no more border patrol agents.
Do not attend a state university.
Do not see any doctor that is licensed through the state.
Do not use any water from municipal water systems.
Do not complain when diseases and viruses, that were once fought around the globe by the US government and CDC, reach your house.
Do not work for any company that is required to pay its workers a livable wage, provide them sick days, vacation days, and benefits.
Do not expect to be able to vote on election days. Government provides voting booths, election day officials, and voting machines which are paid for with taxes.
Do not ride trains. The railroad was built with government financial assistance.

Sure, I'll be happy to, just as soon as you stop stealing my money from me. But that's not going to happen now, is it?

Hey, if a pickpocket steals my wallet, you can't expect me to not chase him down the street trying to get my loot back.

And if you say "corporations can do these better", please show me the proof.

No, the burden is on you to show that government does it better. I don't need to prove that I should be free to buy goods and services from whomever I choose.

Where's your proof that monopolies provide goods and services better than multiple providers in an open and free competitive market?

Not blogger theorcrafting, not Ayn Randroid nonsense, not "wishful thinking", let me see these governments you think we can have. Somalia is a good utopia, they collect no taxes and their country is working great! People all get along just fine and never need government intervention.

Somalia is a shit hole because of government, not because it doesn't have a government. The governments of Somalia's neighbors all interfere in her affairs, as well as the U.S. government. And it was Somalia's own internal government that destroyed Somalia to begin with.

Point rejected, try again.

 

[Moonbeam]

OK, since taxes is theft, please leave the country or form another based on a government that doesn't use taxes for this purported utopia. But before you do, please have a read of the following:

If you’re a conservative who hates taxes, please do the following.
Do not use Medicare.
Do not use Social Security
Do not become a member of the US military, who are paid with tax dollars.
Do not ask the National Guard to help you after a disaster.
Do not call 911 when you get hurt.
Do not call the police to stop intruders in your home.
Do not summon the fire department to save your burning home.
Do not drive on any paved road, highway, and interstate or drive on any bridge.
Do not use public restrooms.
Do not send your kids to public schools.
Do not put your trash out for city garbage collectors.
Do not live in areas with clean air.
Do not drink clean water.
Do not visit National Parks.
Do not visit public museums, zoos, and monuments.
Do not eat or use FDA inspected food and medicines.
Do not bring your kids to public playgrounds.
Do not walk or run on sidewalks.
Do not use public recreational facilities such as basketball and tennis courts.
Do not seek shelter facilities or food in soup kitchens when you are homeless and hungry.
Do not apply for educational or job training assistance when you lose your job.
Do not apply for food stamps when you can’t feed your children.
Do not use the judiciary system for any reason.
Do not ask for an attorney when you are arrested and do not ask for one to be assigned to you by the court.
Do not apply for any Pell Grants.
Do not use cures that were discovered by labs using federal dollars.
Do not fly on federally regulated airplanes.
Do not use any product that can trace its development back to NASA.
Do not watch the weather provided by the National Weather Service.
Do not listen to severe weather warnings from the National Weather Service.
Do not listen to tsunami, hurricane, or earthquake alert systems.
Do not apply for federal housing.
Do not use the internet, which was developed by the military.
Do not swim in clean rivers.
Do not allow your child to eat school lunches or breakfasts.
Do not ask for FEMA assistance when everything you own gets wiped out by disaster.
Do not ask the military to defend your life and home in the event of a foreign invasion.
Do not use your cell phone or home telephone.
Do not buy firearms that wouldn’t have been developed without the support of the US Government and military. That includes most of them.
Do not eat USDA inspected produce and meat.
Do not apply for government grants to start your own business.
Do not apply to win a government contract.
Do not buy any vehicle that has been inspected by government safety agencies.
Do not buy any product that is protected from poisons, toxins, etc…by the Consumer Protection Agency.
Do not save your money in a bank that is FDIC insured.
Do not use Veterans benefits or military health care.
Do not use the G.I. Bill to go to college.
Do not apply for unemployment benefits.
Do not use any electricity from companies regulated by the Department of Energy.
Do not live in homes that are built to code.
Do not run for public office. Politicians are paid with taxpayer dollars.
Do not ask for help from the FBI, S.W.A.T, the bomb squad, Homeland Security, State troopers, etc…
Do not apply for any government job whatsoever as all state and federal employees are paid with tax dollars.
Do not use public libraries.
Do not use the US Postal Service.
Do not visit the National Archives.
Do not visit Presidential Libraries.
Do not use airports that are secured by the federal government.
Do not apply for loans from any bank that is FDIC insured.
Do not ask the government to help you clean up after a tornado.
Do not ask the Department of Agriculture to provide a subsidy to help you run your farm.
Do not take walks in National Forests.
Do not ask for taxpayer dollars for your oil company.
Do not ask the federal government to bail your company out during recessions.
Do not seek medical care from places that use federal dollars.
Do not use Medicaid.
Do not use WIC.
Do not use electricity generated by Hoover Dam.
Do not use electricity or any service provided by the Tennessee Valley Authority.
Do not ask the Army Corps of Engineers to rebuild levees when they break.
Do not let the Coast Guard save you from drowning when your boat capsizes at sea.
Do not ask the government to help evacuate you when all hell breaks loose in the country you are in.
Do not visit historic landmarks.
Do not visit fisheries.
Do not expect to see animals that are federally protected because of the Endangered Species List.
Do not expect plows to clear roads of snow and ice so your kids can go to school and so you can get to work.
Do not hunt or camp on federal land.
Do not work anywhere that has a safe workplace because of government regulations.
Do not use public transportation.
Do not drink water from public water fountains.
Do not whine when someone copies your work and sells it as their own. Government enforces copyright laws.
Do not expect to own your home, car, or boat. Government organizes and keeps all titles.
Do not expect convicted felons to remain off the streets.
Do not eat in restaurants that are regulated by food quality and safety standards.
Do not seek help from the US Embassy if you need assistance in a foreign nation.
Do not apply for a passport to travel outside of the United States.
Do not apply for a patent when you invent something.
Do not adopt a child through your local, state, or federal governments. 89.Do not use elevators that have been inspected by federal or state safety regulators.
Do not use any resource that was discovered by the USGS.
Do not ask for energy assistance from the government.
Do not move to any other developed nation, because the taxes are much higher.
Do not go to a beach that is kept clean by the state.
Do not use money printed by the US Treasury.
Do not complain when millions more illegal immigrants cross the border because there are no more border patrol agents.
Do not attend a state university.
Do not see any doctor that is licensed through the state.
Do not use any water from municipal water systems.
Do not complain when diseases and viruses, that were once fought around the globe by the US government and CDC, reach your house.
Do not work for any company that is required to pay its workers a livable wage, provide them sick days, vacation days, and benefits.
Do not expect to be able to vote on election days. Government provides voting booths, election day officials, and voting machines which are paid for with taxes.
Do not ride trains. The railroad was built with government financial assistance.

And if you say "corporations can do these better", please show me the proof. Not blogger theorcrafting, not Ayn Randroid nonsense, not "wishful thinking", let me see these governments you think we can have. Somalia is a good utopia, they collect no taxes and their country is working great! People all get along just fine and never need government intervention.

Where are all you people coming from. I'm going to retire. I thank you for being alive.

 

[berzerker60]

Ha, another naive anarchist. Here's a hint as to why anarchy is fundamentally flawed: information. For any of your rationalizations and countermeasures to have the least possibility of working, everyone has to have perfect information. How do you plan to organize your 'bigger posse' when the posse the next town over comes to take your stuff? You need to communicate with everyone else, inform them that the other posse exists and has no right to your crops ("But they say it's THEIR land! How do I know who's telling the truth?") and organize a response. Good luck doing that once the posse cuts your power and phone lines.

Or on more mundane grounds, you see two brands of bread at the Free Marketplace in your village. One is way cheaper, and doesn't cause immediate harm. The next guy over says it will give you cancer in 10 years and you should buy his bread instead. How do you plan to evaluate this claim in a world without regulations? Both bread companies say the other lies, and neither will let you into their plants. You don't happen to be a trained organic chemist or doctor, so you can't run significant tests yourself. You don't have hours to research all of your purchases every day. Who knows what will result? (We do! We look at history, when this was the case, and lots of horrific unhealthy and unsanitary stuff was in food and people regularly got sick and sometimes died from them. But hey, I'm sure in Libertopia this magically won't happen!)

Or, say I'm a fisherman, so it's always in my interest to catch more fish. But if everyone follows this rational individual path, the fish stocks collapse and all of our livelihoods (and food source) die. For anyone to take action, they need 1) to be aware of this problem, and 2) somehow convince all the other fishermen to make less money. Maybe even most of the fishermen agree, but not one guy who's just a jackass, so he keeps fishing way beyond his 'fair share.' What do you do? Organize a boycott? So he sells them the next town over, where no one knows about your boycott or cares about your interests, so long as they get their fish for cheap. Then he uses his money to start a media empire that tells everyone how you're trying to destroy the free market with your awful government-esque regulations and everyone should buy his fishsticks instead, the Fishsticks of Freedom.

 

[hal2kilo]

Ha, another naive anarchist. Here's a hint as to why anarchy is fundamentally flawed: information. For any of your rationalizations and countermeasures to have the least possibility of working, everyone has to have perfect information. How do you plan to organize your 'bigger posse' when the posse the next town over comes to take your stuff? You need to communicate with everyone else, inform them that the other posse exists and has no right to your crops ("But they say it's THEIR land! How do I know who's telling the truth?") and organize a response. Good luck doing that once the posse cuts your power and phone lines.

Or on more mundane grounds, you see two brands of bread at the Free Marketplace in your village. One is way cheaper, and doesn't cause immediate harm. The next guy over says it will give you cancer in 10 years and you should buy his bread instead. How do you plan to evaluate this claim in a world without regulations? Both bread companies say the other lies, and neither will let you into their plants. You don't happen to be a trained organic chemist or doctor, so you can't run significant tests yourself. You don't have hours to research all of your purchases every day. Who knows what will result? (We do! We look at history, when this was the case, and lots of horrific unhealthy and unsanitary stuff was in food and people regularly got sick and sometimes died from them. But hey, I'm sure in Libertopia this magically won't happen!)

Or, say I'm a fisherman, so it's always in my interest to catch more fish. But if everyone follows this rational individual path, the fish stocks collapse and all of our livelihoods (and food source) die. For anyone to take action, they need 1) to be aware of this problem, and 2) somehow convince all the other fishermen to make less money. Maybe even most of the fishermen agree, but not one guy who's just a jackass, so he keeps fishing way beyond his 'fair share.' What do you do? Organize a boycott? So he sells them the next town over, where no one knows about your boycott or cares about your interests, so long as they get their fish for cheap. Then he uses his money to start a media empire that tells everyone how you're trying to destroy the free market with your awful government-esque regulations and everyone should buy his fishsticks instead, the Fishsticks of Freedom.

How concise. :thumbsup:

 

[Charles Kozierok]

berzerker: Douchebag No. 8 is a waste of time, but there are actually "real world" libertarian solutions to most of those problems. Libertarians are not anarchists.

 

[BarneyFife]

LOL@Constitutional Conservatism. Why not just go back to the stone age. Republicans can't let go of the era of slavery and no electricity. Its 2012, not 1776.

 

[hal2kilo]

LOL@Constitutional Conservatism. Why not just go back to the stone age. Republicans can't let go of the era of slavery and no electricity. Its 2012, not 1776.

But by God they were free to be abused by the landed gentry.

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

What's false about it, specifically? A robber says, "give me your money, or else!". The government says, "give us your money, or else!". If you don't give a robber the money he demands, he's likely to bring harm to you. If you don't give a government the money they demand, they are likely to bring harm to you.

Looks pretty much the same to me.

Of course it does. Theft is theft. It doesn't matter if it comes in the form of a pickpocket or a government. The definition is still the same.

What else have you got?

Its a false equivalence because you are equating a thief to an elected government.

Might as well claim that enforcing laws are acts of crime by elected officials against freedom loving individuals.

 

[buckshot24]

Juror, don't you have a holocaust to deny?

 

[CitizenKain]

Babies First Libertarian Talking Points

So when are you leaving the US? For someone who is still living off their parents, you sure like to pretend you are talking tough.

 

[buckshot24]

LOL@Constitutional Conservatism. Why not just go back to the stone age. Republicans can't let go of the era of slavery and no electricity. Its 2012, not 1776.

First thing, the constitution was first ratified in 1787. Secondly, slavery is not endorsed in the constitution (its been amended). Thirdly, you're a moron.

 

[Juror No. 8]

Ha, another naive anarchist. Here's a hint as to why anarchy is fundamentally flawed: information. For any of your rationalizations and countermeasures to have the least possibility of working, everyone has to have perfect information.

Who says? And why? If perfect information isn't needed under a system of government, why would it be needed in a system without government?

How do you plan to organize your 'bigger posse' when the posse the next town over comes to take your stuff?

How do you plan to organize your 'bigger government' when the much bigger government in the next country comes to take your stuff?

You need to communicate with everyone else, inform them that the other posse exists and has no right to your crops ("But they say it's THEIR land!

Yes, and without a government, nobody will know how to communicate anymore!

LOL!

How do I know who's telling the truth?") and organize a response. Good luck doing that once the posse cuts your power and phone lines.

Uh oh, nobody ever thought of that, so of course there won't be a backup system in place.

Only government can solve that problem. Government to the rescue!

Or on more mundane grounds, you see two brands of bread at the Free Marketplace in your village. One is way cheaper, and doesn't cause immediate harm. The next guy over says it will give you cancer in 10 years and you should buy his bread instead. How do you plan to evaluate this claim in a world without regulations?

I'll make my own bread, which isn't very hard.

But, but, but... LOL.

Both bread companies say the other lies, and neither will let you into their plants.

If they won't allow inspections of their facilities, why should I buy bread from either of them?

You're not making any sense.

You don't happen to be a trained organic chemist or doctor, so you can't run significant tests yourself. You don't have hours to research all of your purchases every day. Who knows what will result? (We do! We look at history, when this was the case, and lots of horrific unhealthy and unsanitary stuff was in food and people regularly got sick and sometimes died from them. But hey, I'm sure in Libertopia this magically won't happen!)

LOL, in case you weren't aware, which you are clearly not, people still die from food poisoning ALL THE TIME, even under a government with all its regulatory agencies! Maybe you forgot about that, eh? Derp?

Anyway, this sounds like a golden business opportunity for someone to start a business that does nothing but certifies the quality of and inspects the facilities of companies in the food industry. If companies refuse, then they won't get a seal of approval, and their competitors who do get a seal of approval will sell more food.

Gee, that was a tough one! LOL!

Or, say I'm a fisherman, so it's always in my interest to catch more fish. But if everyone follows this rational individual path, the fish stocks collapse and all of our livelihoods (and food source) die.

You're not making any sense again. How is it in anyone's rational self interest to overuse and deplete the resource they are dependent on for survival?

Regardless, that happens now, even under government, so you've got no point.

For anyone to take action, they need 1) to be aware of this problem, and 2) somehow convince all the other fishermen to make less money.

That doesn't sound too difficult. Less money and an always replenishing fishery is preferable to a no money and a dead fishery.

Maybe even most of the fishermen agree, but not one guy who's just a jackass, so he keeps fishing way beyond his 'fair share.' What do you do? Organize a boycott? So he sells them the next town over, where no one knows about your boycott or cares about your interests, so long as they get their fish for cheap. Then he uses his money to start a media empire that tells everyone how you're trying to destroy the free market with your awful government-esque regulations and everyone should buy his fishsticks instead, the Fishsticks of Freedom.

And what happens if this same fisherman gets control of the government you pine for? Then what?

Stupid lifeboat scenario is stupid.

Surely there are better, more thoughtful rebuttals than this? This shit's pretty weak so far.

 

[Juror No. 8]

How concise. :thumbsup:

Yes, and then utterly and concisely destroyed.

LOL.

 

[Juror No. 8]

But by God they were free to be abused by the landed gentry.

You think that really changed under Big Government?

LOL! Now it's even worse, because the former landed gentry are now the international oligarchs who own or control all the banks, multinational corporations, NGOs, and governments of the world. They even own and control you.

"But, but, but... government will protect us! Democracy is the answer!"

LOL.

 

[Juror No. 8]

Its a false equivalence because you are equating a thief to an elected government.

So? Is there some reason an elected government can't steal or rob?

What if the people elected a bunch of Mafia members to government? Does their stealing and extortion schemes all of a sudden become something else just because they are called "government"?

Might as well claim that enforcing laws are acts of crime by elected officials against freedom loving individuals.

Well, they certainly can be. It was once lawful in America to own and mistreat your slaves. The government even enforced - by protecting - these laws.

Are you saying it shouldn't be considered a crime to own and mistreat slaves? Derp?

 

[Moonbeam]

You think that really changed under Big Government?

LOL! Now it's even worse, because the former landed gentry are now the international oligarchs who own or control all the banks, multinational corporations, NGOs, and governments of the world. They even own and control you.

"But, but, but... government will protect us! Democracy is the answer!"

LOL.

I think your best argument against democracy is that it creates idiots like you. You are going to bake your own bread when the bread is bad and grow your own wheat when the wheat is bad then make your own plow when the tractor is bad and there you are, flinting a stone ax. Even people in the stone age weren't as stupid as you.

 

[Juror No. 8]

I think your best argument against democracy is that it creates idiots like you.

Says the guy who still believes, despite overwhelming real world evidence, that the government still represents him.

Now we know why the government so desperately wanted to control the education of the American people. Basically so they could churn out dumb shits faster than a ford plant churns out Mustangs.

 

[Moonbeam]

JurorSays the guy who still believes, despite overwhelming real world evidence, that the government still represents him.

M: Where do you get that nonsense from. Don't answer, you pulled it out of your ass. I don't believe the government represents me, I believe it represents us. I am just a data point in a collective. All I do is cancel out idiots like you.

J: Now we know why the government so desperately wanted to control the education of the American people.


M: Please don't flatter yourself that you can make any deep discoveries. You don't know any more now than you did a few minutes ago.

J: Basically so they could churn out dumb shits faster than a ford plant churns out Mustangs.

M: The actual attempt was to keep fools like you reaching majority with 2 year old mentalities. As I said, you are the best proof there is of government ineptitude.

 

[Moonbeam]

You, Juror, are the dumbest person who ever lived. That's my reply to your next post.

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

So? Is there some reason an elected government can't steal or rob?

What if the people elected a bunch of Mafia members to government? Does their stealing and extortion schemes all of a sudden become something else just because they are called "government"?



Well, they certainly can be. It was once lawful in America to own and mistreat your slaves. The government even enforced - by protecting - these laws.

Are you saying it shouldn't be considered a crime to own and mistreat slaves? Derp?

Stop trying to change the discussion by bringing up stupid or unrelated examples.

We were talking about taxes!

Your base premise is nonsensical, that is that a thief is no different than a Democratically elected government.

Your overarching theme -- We dont need government -- flies in the face of thousands of years of human society and history.

But bless your little anachronistic heart, you knew that already.

See the problem with you trying to argue from that position is that you try and use absolutes (people still die from food poisoning!) versus differentials (fewer people die!) to bolster your "we dont need the government " song.

Derp?