Backlash grows in US over foreign worker visas

[Zorba]

The salaries and benefits are already higher than they used to be, young people do not like to get their hands dirty, sweat, or be away from home for several weeks. They want to have high paying cushy office jobs.

A lot of those jobs also used to be trained via apprenticeships or company paid technical training. Nowadays all those programs are dead and it is up to HS kid to go out of his way to pick that field, get all the required training, then get the job probably starting for less than if he was tending a bar.

I think a lot of people used to fall into those jobs, because they got trained by their employer, those days are gone. Not to mention basically no large companies pay property taxes anymore, thus hurting high schools and tech schools. And what are the first things that get cut at HS? Shop classes.

BTW: What benefits have increased? Back in the day people got pensions, could depend on not being laid off, etc. I know at the airline I worked for, the mechanics now make about 2/3 of what they did in the 90s, pensions are gone, all other benefits have decreased. Starting pay for a new mechanic is less than $15/hr, it takes an A&P license, typically about 10-15 years of experience and a BS degree to get in the door. And there is no shortage of young aircraft mechanics, except in the minds of airlines executives that want to further cut pay and benefits.

Shortage of qualified people means a shortage of people that will work under the conditions/pay desired by the company. If you can find qualified people, train them or pay more than your competitors and steal them.

 

[smackababy]

I don't believe there is a shortage of skilled technical workers in this country. When a company says "We can't find any skilled technical workers, so we have to import them," that is corporate-speak for "We can't find anyone in the US who will work as cheaply as foreigners."

That is pretty much it right there. They want to pay as little as possible for the "most" skilled. My company doesn't do that, at least for developers. They learned that outsourcing code, while the labor was cheaper, actually ended up costing more due to having multiple rewrites. They would rather pay domestic workers more and get better quality out of them. Granted, they aren't all "American" in that sense. Quite a few are first generation Eastern European immigrants that have citizenship.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Call me extreme or a communist I don't care. Here is my basic thoughts about foreign workers.
Allowing people from outside the country to compete for jobs puts an American down. Either salary or missed opportunity to learn new skills. Hiring someone from inside the country lifts someone up with salary increase or new skills.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

A lot of those jobs also used to be trained via apprenticeships or company paid technical training. Nowadays all those programs are dead and it is up to HS kid to go out of his way to pick that field, get all the required training, then get the job probably starting for less than if he was tending a bar.

I think a lot of people used to fall into those jobs, because they got trained by their employer, those days are gone. Not to mention basically no large companies pay property taxes anymore, thus hurting high schools and tech schools. And what are the first things that get cut at HS? Shop classes.

BTW: What benefits have increased? Back in the day people got pensions, could depend on not being laid off, etc. I know at the airline I worked for, the mechanics now make about 2/3 of what they did in the 90s, pensions are gone, all other benefits have decreased. Starting pay for a new mechanic is less than $15/hr, it takes an A&P license, typically about 10-15 years of experience and a BS degree to get in the door. And there is no shortage of young aircraft mechanics, except in the minds of airlines executives that want to further cut pay and benefits.

Shortage of qualified people means a shortage of people that will work under the conditions/pay desired by the company. If you can find qualified people, train them or pay more than your competitors and steal them.

No, companies such as the one I work for will train these kids while paying them a decent wage with benefits ($20/hr plus medical/dental/vision). 90% give up within 60 days due to the work being in the environment and having to be away from home for 3 to 5 weeks, many go back to working jobs in air conditioned places that pay minimum wage or slightly more.

Our senior mechanics get paid $32/hr - $38/hr. All mechanics get paid 1.5 times wage beyond 8 hrs, double time beyond 12 hours weekdays. Saturday 1.5 time wage for first 12, double time beyond. Sundays double time all day.

As for stealing them from competitors, they're paying their senior people the same as the company I work for does and similar benefits. They can't fill their mechanic needs either.

 

[squarecut1]

In Canada it's even more disasterous, they stack these 3rd worlders in areas to bolster their vote and pander to them. One politician tries to out pander the other, lower and lower qualifications for citizenship, more and more family members allowed to immigrate, lower and lower age to qualify for old age pension. "Vote for me". Then they raised the age of retirement for real Canadians from 65 to 67.

We even sell our citizenship to rich people, there are 100,000 "so-called" canadians in hong kong.

In a generation our democracy has been hijacked. Anyone dares talk against it is attacked as a racist and the standard for "hate crimes" becomes lower and lower as does our standard of living. just in the last five years the temporary foreign worker plan has cause the out right firings of hundreds of thousands long term Canadians in favour of foreign workers who then apply for citizenship. A lot of them even have a union that requires them to apply and fights for them. We are getting 500,000 of this scumbag cultures every year in a country with 10x less population than yours.

One generation of quislings and cowards is all it takes to destroy a 1st world country when it's a democracy. Thank god the Right wing parties are starting to win seats in Europe. It will come here. I hope.

Haha... Good to see the agony of a racist. Great post.

Yes Europe has plenty of like minded folks. If not, there is always the Canadian chapter of KKK. Now accepting applications

 

[Orignal Earl]

there are people here who want/have a job with the company but allowing tfw to receive 15 percent lower wages than the native counterpart really puts the icing on the cake for the company.

Yep, I see the abuse side of the story too

 

[Matt1970]

I will agree with you to a certain extent however, there is a shortage of skilled heavy industrial equipment mechanics in this country. Younger people are not willing to work in hot, less than perfect environments or spend several weeks away from home and the older mechanics (traveling or those that work in the plants) are retiring. This personnel shortage affects refineries, chemical plants, paper mills, power houses, and factories that utilize this equipment as well as companies that repair and service the equipment.

That's the problem a lot of the time.

 

[Engineer]

So, the foreign worker must be paid equal or higher than the prevailing wage. That means that the worker cannot out compete the US citizen worker on price. This means that they are beating out US workers on skill/productivity.



Seems like H-1B visas are not doom and gloom.

Sure thing skippy. Now how about that bridge I have for sale?

(Color me not surprised by your answer.....textbook all the way).

 

[realibrad]

Sure thing skippy. Now how about that bridge I have for sale?

(Color me not surprised by your answer.....textbook all the way).

I don't get you. You seem smart enough, but you get stuck in partisan topics. We have laws right now, on the books that are intended to stop the very thing you are upset about. So what is it that truly bothers you? You have people who are willing to work for a lower standard of living than another, and you want to stop that. Perhaps the reason the US way of live is not what it used to be, is because its unsustainable.

Also, this is the 2nd time you have called my comments "text book". Where then, do you get your ideas from? I have taken micro and macro econ classes at my community college, and that is it. Everything else I say comes from what I have learned outside of the class room.

 

[Engineer]

You have people who are willing to work for a lower standard of living than another, and you want to stop that.

If they are taking jobs away from US people, especially the middle class, you damn straight I'm against it. You know damn good and well that the system is rigged to get those people in here to pay them a lower wage. Hell, the damn article states that jobs that were open in this country were not even advertised in this country but rather in India instead. Sounds like a fair plan to me. Bullshit.

I would 100 to 1 rather people like you to lose your job than the US citizens that so called free trade and visa bullshit are replacing, all to make those at the top more fucking money.

Shaking my goddamn head at people in this country....not a lick of fucking sense to be found.

And it's not your job to 'get me'. I'm for the middle class people of this country, not the cheerleaders of cheap foreign labor replacing them such as yourself. Now do you get me?

 

[realibrad]

Yeah, that really gets enforced. I worked for about a year at a terrible, small company. I was one of two engineers (not including our boss), we both had a BSME and MSME and the exact same amount of experience, except his was more directly related. He was on an H1B visa and made $25,000/yr less than I did.

At one point the company had to reprove they couldn't get a US employee, so they posted the job asking for MSME, 10+ years, PE license, for $60K/yr, when in the oil and gas industry that should get you in the 100K/yr range.

I am sure there are many cases of where the laws are not enforced. Also, I did a quick google search, so I'm not sure how reliable this is, but this link says that 60k is the right amount.

http://www.engineersalary.com/mechanical.asp

 

[realibrad]

If they are taking jobs away from US people, especially the middle class, you damn straight I'm against it. You know damn good and well that the system is rigged to get those people in here to pay them a lower wage.

How do you stop it, with out having a net negative effect? Aside from any moral issues, I cannot see how you stop it with out having placed a big burden on the rest of the economy.

I want all the skilled people to come to the US, because it then gives us a monopoly on their talents. If you don't allow them to come here, they take their benefit to their country. Being anti-immigrant labor would seem to hurt a lot more than the few it would protect.

 

[Engineer]

How do you stop it, with out having a net negative effect?

End the damn program, period. The program is one giant thorn in the US workers side, all in favor of the rich people of this country wanting more. Fuck em. The program is not about bringing top talent here, it's about advertising ridiculous wages, stating that you can't find skilled people here (for those wages) and then hiring foreigners on visas to take the spot that the company is too damn cheap to pay for, at the same time raising CEO and executive pay while they jerk each other off in the board rooms and the steak houses (with the representatives that they have bought and paid for).

 

[BoberFett]

 

[Jeff7]

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Or the company places less value on skill or experience than they do on being able to save 60% of your salary.

Short term problems are what really matter. Long term problems are for someone else to fix.




Or, there are indeed people who are at least somewhat qualified, but they come from a country with a standard of living that is far below ours, so they're willing to settle for much less than we have now.
How far do we want to depress our own standard of living? How low is good enough?

 

[Zorba]

I am sure there are many cases of where the laws are not enforced. Also, I did a quick google search, so I'm not sure how reliable this is, but this link says that 60k is the right amount.

http://www.engineersalary.com/mechanical.asp

From your own link

New MSME graduates have an avererage starting salary of $66,720

Now add 10 years of experience and a PE license, in oil and gas you should be easily above 100K in Oklahoma. And like I said, my coworker was making 25K less than I was, pretty much all things being equal except he was on an H1B.

Better links for you:
http://www1.salary.com/Mechanical-Engineer-V-Salary.html
http://www1.salary.com/Mechanical-Engineer-IV-Salary.html

 

[realibrad]

End the damn program, period. The program is one giant thorn in the US workers side, all in favor of the rich people of this country wanting more. Fuck em. The program is not about bringing top talent here, it's about advertising ridiculous wages, stating that you can't find skilled people here (for those wages) and then hiring foreigners on visas to take the spot that the company is too damn cheap to pay for, at the same time raising CEO and executive pay while they jerk each other off in the board rooms and the steak houses (with the representatives that they have bought and paid for).

Then what you will have, are foreign countries becoming more competitive because the skills stay in their country. Their industry will get the benefit of their labor, and they start producing products/services that out do the US.

So, you are worried about the loss of a few jobs now, but you are going to create many more Toyota's that start eating away at US industry. Those foreign workers who you want to fuck so badly will still keep their skills. Firms will still use those skills, and those goods will still be made. You think you are helping the US, but all you are doing is killing it. The US cannot survive a world where our products cost more than anyone, but are the same quality. Its not even robbing peter to pay paul, its robbign peter to muder paul.

The US way of life depends on selling our crap to the world. People get so caught up in our trade deficit that they dont realize how much we produce. If we cant produce products at prices the "WORLD" will buy because its simply too expensive, what happens then?

Or, do we keep fucking the foreigners cause Murica?

 

[realibrad]

From your own link

Now add 10 years of experience and a PE license, in oil and gas you should be easily above 100K in Oklahoma. And like I said, my coworker was making 25K less than I was, pretty much all things being equal except he was on an H1B.

Better links for you:
http://www1.salary.com/Mechanical-Engineer-V-Salary.html
http://www1.salary.com/Mechanical-Engineer-IV-Salary.html

So, what does this mean?

Mechanical engineer salaries for the highest 10% are more than $112,740

That seems to imply that the top 10% are the ones making 100k+. Am I mixing the jobs you are talking about?

 

[Engineer]

Then what you will have, are foreign countries becoming more competitive because the skills stay in their country. Their industry will get the benefit of their labor, and they start producing products/services that out do the US.

So, you are worried about the loss of a few jobs now, but you are going to create many more Toyota's that start eating away at US industry. Those foreign workers who you want to fuck so badly will still keep their skills. Firms will still use those skills, and those goods will still be made. You think you are helping the US, but all you are doing is killing it. The US cannot survive a world where our products cost more than anyone, but are the same quality. Its not even robbing peter to pay paul, its robbign peter to muder paul.

The US way of life depends on selling our crap to the world. People get so caught up in our trade deficit that they dont realize how much we produce. If we cant produce products at prices the "WORLD" will buy because its simply too expensive, what happens then?

Or, do we keep fucking the foreigners cause Murica?

I don't give a shit about your opinions on whether I want to fuck foreigners or not, got that? You seem to want to fuck the American middle class in the ass. I do not and will not change my view on that. No need to respond because neither you or I am going to change our minds on it. Maybe one day your job will be offshored instead of a hard working middle class American that wants to keep it in the house.

Good day.

 

[fleshconsumed]

I don't get you. You seem smart enough, but you get stuck in partisan topics. We have laws right now, on the books that are intended to stop the very thing you are upset about. So what is it that truly bothers you? You have people who are willing to work for a lower standard of living than another, and you want to stop that. Perhaps the reason the US way of live is not what it used to be, is because its unsustainable.

Also, this is the 2nd time you have called my comments "text book". Where then, do you get your ideas from? I have taken micro and macro econ classes at my community college, and that is it. Everything else I say comes from what I have learned outside of the class room.

I know this wasn't directed to me, but I want to address it.

1. The "prevailing wage" laws part. If you've taken the macro/micro econ classes, then you should know that any given price, or in this situation, wage, is a result of supply vs demand. The so-called "prevailing" wage is not static. The more H1B's you import, the more supply you have, the further down the "prevailing" wage declines. The "prevailing" wage now is a lot less than it was 5 years ago, in part thanks to the increased supply of H1B/temporary workers.

2. The unsustainable part. This is a more valid question. Yes, it is entirely possible that the way we live is unsustainable. My retort is, and I suppose many others share similar concern, if our way of life is unsustainable, shouldn't our standard of living decrease across the whole country? If so, how come the top 1% are wealthier than ever? How come our "unsustainable" way of life doesn't affect them in the slightest? How come all the benefits from the productivity and GDP growth over the last 30 years went to the top 1-10% of population while 90% of people are either the same or worse? How come we can still grow as a country, even though our way of life is "unsustainable" but only the top few percent capture that growth in the face of un-sustainability?

 

[Zorba]

So, what does this mean?

Mechanical engineer salaries for the highest 10% are more than $112,740

That seems to imply that the top 10% are the ones making 100k+. Am I mixing the jobs you are talking about?

My salary.com links are much better than the link you posted, they nearly identically match the pay ranges at the last two companies I've worked for. It is also well known that Oil and Gas tends to pay about 15-20% higher than other industries, for various reasons.

Salary.com shows the median for a Mechanical Engineer IV is 103K and 119K for a ME V. Anyone with a MSME, 10+ years and PE would be at least a IV and good ones would be a V.

Edit:

So, what does this mean?

It means that your own link agrees with me that 60K is way low for a MSME, PE, 10+ years. Since an entry level MSME starts over 66K.

 

[realibrad]

My salary.com links are much better than the link you posted, they nearly identically match the pay ranges at the last two companies I've worked for. It is also well known that Oil and Gas tends to pay about 15-20% higher than other industries, for various reasons.

Salary.com shows the median for a Mechanical Engineer IV is 103K and 119K for a ME V. Anyone with a MSME, 10+ years and PE would be at least a IV and good ones would be a V.

Edit:


It means that your own link agrees with me that 60K is way low for a MSME, PE, 10+ years. Since an entry level MSME starts over 66K.

Ah, then my sources were incorrect. Fair enough.

 

[realibrad]

I don't give a shit about your opinions on whether I want to fuck foreigners or not, got that? You seem to want to fuck the American middle class in the ass. I do not and will not change my view on that. No need to respond because neither you or I am going to change our minds on it. Maybe one day your job will be offshored instead of a hard working middle class American that wants to keep it in the house.

Good day.

Man, you seem really angry about things. The only reason I ever started responding to your posts is because they seemed coherent, but shame on me.

 

[Engineer]

Man, you seem really angry about things. The only reason I ever started responding to your posts is because they seemed coherent, but shame on me.

Damn right I'm angry. I'm tired of people like you wanting to undercut the middle class jobs, either by sending them out of bringing in lower wage people "TO BE TRAINED" and replacing the people that trained them. No wonder the country's population is going down the tube economically. Get your head out of the textbook world and look around at the economic conditions of the middle class and get a clue.

Oh, what the hell, you don't care.

 

[realibrad]

Damn right I'm angry. I'm tired of people like you wanting to undercut the middle class jobs, either by sending them out of bringing in lower wage people "TO BE TRAINED" and replacing the people that trained them. No wonder the country's population is going down the tube economically. Get your head out of the textbook world and look around at the economic conditions of the middle class and get a clue.

Oh, what the hell, you don't care.

No, I don't care. I have spent a good many hours talking to you on a forum about something I don't care about. The only thing that makes us different is that one of us cares...

The problem is not that one side cares and the other dosent, I just look at things beyond the initial impact. Do you honestly think that I want to hurt anyone? What I have been saying, is that I think the best way to help not only the middle class, but everyone is to do things differently than what you advocate. I try and keep my points factual, and formulate my arguments coherently, and you come back with "you hate the middle class". I asked you multiple times to back up your statements on multiple threads, and you never respond. I though it was because you were busy, but it sure does not seem that way now.