Backlash grows in US over foreign worker visas

[Zorba]

Are you done with your tantrum? Just to give you some context, I hire and fire people at a Fortune 20 company. And I manage people that hire and fire people, including in IT. I've seen the absolute gamut. And let me tell you, the reason why companies keep pursuing H1Bs is because it makes business sense. Not just because they are cheaper, but because they are lower risk. If you hire one, you are usually not having to fire him 3 months later. You usually aren't going to deal with lazy asses. Or a sexual harrassment lawsuit. Or "sick leave" that happens to coincide with every other weekend. Or shitty attitudes. The list goes on. There are obviously exceptions, but people that hire H1Bs are not idiots. There are reasons in line with those of the business that drive those decisions. If you honestly believe that companies hire H1Bs purely because they are cheap or that they just love screwing over the American worker, you flat out need to get your head examined.

The state of India has to do with a litany of historical and geopolitical factors many of which date back over a century, and almost nothing to do with the current work ethic and intellect of their workforce. But hey, why put an ounce of thought or research into things before posting? This is ATPN after all.

Except H1B visas are supposed to be there for when companies can't find American workers, not because they don't like American workers, as you have just stated. Companies also like H1B visas because until that person gets their green card, the company basically has all the control/power, which is why so many H1Bs quit right after getting their green card.

Something business people like you don't understand is many H1B visa employees are afraid to speak up or rock the boat, some of it is culture and some of it is the company has them by the balls. Engineers not willing to speak up is a very scary thing, especially in aerospace. I would so much rather work with an average engineer that will speak up and fight back, than a great engineer that will play dead.

 

[Zorba]

of course workers that can be deported are more likely to be submissive to abusive management. Cant believe a racist like you works in HR

My mom's company brings in a ton of physical therapist from the Philippines on H1Bs. Not only do they make sure the employees know they will be deported if fired, if the employee is fired the company charges them for all visa/relocation expenses. I know they charged one H1B physical therapist $23,000 after being fired, and filed suit against her to get the money, which I assume keeps her from ever getting a new H1B. The physical therapist was fired because "It just wasn't working out," so not like she was fired for gross misconduct or anything.

The point is, it isn't just the fear of being deported but also the fear that company will make sure you can never come back. Makes for very submissive employees.

 

[Mani]

LOL. I don't work in IT so try again.

2nd, it's all about money. Always has been. If you can't find good American workers in this economy, you're a shitty hiring manager. The reason you can't find 'good' American workers is because you have an option to hire CHEAP foreign ones and bring them right to your door.

Another idiot joins the ATPN crowd.

Speaking of idiots, great fact-based rebuttal you presented there. Just more emotional butthurt - I should know better than to try to use logic with people like you.

 

[Mani]

of course workers that can be deported are more likely to be submissive to abusive management. Cant believe a racist like you works in HR

Awesome. I love how people like you probably hate folks that throw around the term racist, yet don't hesitate to do just that. I mean you could at least have had a tangential basis for using it.

 

[Mani]

Something business people like you don't understand is many H1B visa employees are afraid to speak up or rock the boat, some of it is culture and some of it is the company has them by the balls. Engineers not willing to speak up is a very scary thing, especially in aerospace. I would so much rather work with an average engineer that will speak up and fight back, than a great engineer that will play dead.

This is common sense to "business types like me" just as it is to anyone else. The bottom line is that "business types" have a higher success rate with people on H1Bs. If they didn't, they wouldn't hire them. And by success rate, that means people that complete their job and meet or exceed the performance criteria set for them. In many IT jobs, this criteria is fairly objective. You guys should really try talking to your management about these people instead of pigeonholing and stereotyping them. See why they are highly regarded and why companies are investing thousands in them. You might learn that they're not the braindead automatons you think they are.

 

[JManInPhoenix]

Are you done with your tantrum? Just to give you some context, I hire and fire people at a Fortune 20 company. And I manage people that hire and fire people, including in IT. I've seen the absolute gamut. And let me tell you, the reason why companies keep pursuing H1Bs is because it makes business sense. Not just because they are cheaper, but because they are lower risk. If you hire one, you are usually not having to fire him 3 months later. You usually aren't going to deal with lazy asses. Or a sexual harrassment lawsuit. Or "sick leave" that happens to coincide with every other weekend. Or shitty attitudes. The list goes on. There are obviously exceptions, but people that hire H1Bs are not idiots. There are reasons in line with those of the business that drive those decisions. If you honestly believe that companies hire H1Bs purely because they are cheap or that they just love screwing over the American worker, you flat out need to get your head examined.

The state of India has to do with a litany of historical and geopolitical factors many of which date back over a century, and almost nothing to do with the current work ethic and intellect of their workforce. But hey, why put an ounce of thought or research into things before posting? This is ATPN after all.

Maybe your HR department will get outsourced :awe:

 

[Mani]

Maybe your HR department will get outsourced :awe:

Actually, I don't work in HR. And the first job I ever had as an engineer got outsourced to Singapore. The only difference is that instead of pissing, moaning, and blaming like the people in this thread I used it as motivation to make myself valuable and indispensable and it's served me well.

 

[Engineer]

Speaking of idiots, great fact-based rebuttal you presented there. Just more emotional butthurt - I should know better than to try to use logic with people like you.

You didn't give facts about anything that you posted. Just generalities about how American workers are lazy and not worth a shit. That's just opinion from you trying to justify why you are illegally using visas to bypass American workers , nothing more. Again, you're doing it for the money, period.

And for the record, you're not indispensable...you're just a number in the computer and the top brass would sell you out for a monkey if they could do it....in a heartbeat. You're a legend in your own mind.

 

[Mani]

You didn't give facts about anything that you posted. Just generalities about how American workers are lazy and not worth a shit. That's just opinion from you trying to justify why you are illegally using visas to bypass American workers , nothing more. Again, you're doing it for the money, period.

And for the record, you're not indispensable...you're just a number in the computer and the top brass would sell you out for a monkey if they could do it....in a heartbeat.

I never once broadbrushed all American workers. I am one. And my direct reports based in the US are all American-born. What I said, if you removed the blood from your eyes to read, was that we have a ton of lazy slobs in this country, and that those are often the ones being replaced by H1Bs.

Again, tell me how it is cheaper for a company to replace a job like a phone tech with someone on an H1B. At that salary range, the cost of the actual visa is a significant percentage of their actual salary. Add Green Card sponsorship, and you're looking at 25+% more fully burdened HC expense for that person. Still don't believe me? Look at the number of companies that do not hire H1Bs for cost reasons. Or how H1B sponsorship nosedives in bad economies. Or how H1B sponsorship is one of the first things companies cut when falling on hard times. It is simply not cheaper. Get that through your head.

 

[Engineer]

I never once broadbrushed all American workers. I am one. And my direct reports based in the US are all American-born. What I said, if you removed the blood from your eyes to read, was that we have a ton of lazy slobs in this country, and that those are often the ones being replaced by H1Bs.

Again, tell me how it is cheaper for a company to replace a job like a phone tech with someone on an H1B. At that salary range, the cost of the actual visa is a significant percentage of their actual salary. Add Green Card sponsorship, and you're looking at 25+% more fully burdened HC expense for that person. Still don't believe me? Look at the number of companies that do not hire H1Bs for cost reasons. Or how H1B sponsorship nosedives in bad economies. Or how H1B sponsorship is one of the first things companies cut when falling on hard times. It is simply not cheaper. Get that through your head.

Another asshole that's full of shit on the ignore list.

/ah...much better.

 

[Mani]

Another asshole that's full of shit on the ignore list.

/ah...much better.

Of course. When you have no argument to stand on, ignore. Enjoy that bubble you're living in.

 

[HumblePie]

Or to China.
We've got a piece of equipment at work that's from a German company. They too fell for the allure of cheap Chinese labor, both for manufacture of some of the machine and for the software. It's buggy and poorly-translated, the manual's a few years behind the software, and the support isn't too good, in part simply due to the time zone difference. Even the field service techs don't understand why certain features come and go between versions.

I've known several companies that want an H1B1 worker from India do less than scrupulous things in getting the workers they want at the pay they want. Many laws force companies to "prove" that there is no American workers qualified or interested in the work they have to offer.

So what they do is take out a tiny crappy ad in a publication no one reads. Post a the job opening there for the minimum required time by law. Then when no one applies for the job, they use that as "proof" that no one wanted the job. Then request to allow an H1B1 worker to come over instead.

Even if someone does apply, they do less than a half as job of trying to interview them or even give the person the feeling they are even wanted at the job. They don't call back in a timely manner on purpose, and drag their feet at making an offer on purpose hoping the person finds greener pastures elsewhere. I know a few companies here in San Antonio that is their standard MO hiring processes for much of their tech workers. They do hire Americans for certain leadership or very critical IT positions, but anything else they rather have an H1B1 worker. They can screw them over on pay, work hours, and benefits. They do that because they know those people coming over won't complain because they don't realize they are being screwed over. Mainly because the job here is 1000x better than anything they had back in India.

 

[Jaskalas]

You heard it here folks:

Share holders like profits
Profit managers like indentured, obedient servants
American workers will become poorer until they are profitable slave labor
​

Did I miss anything? Our coroperate government will keep the flood gates open, destroy the US worker and themselves. But hey, they got to see DOW 17,000 and record profits before the end. America is committing suicide for short term gains.

 

[Zorba]

This is common sense to "business types like me" just as it is to anyone else. The bottom line is that "business types" have a higher success rate with people on H1Bs. If they didn't, they wouldn't hire them. And by success rate, that means people that complete their job and meet or exceed the performance criteria set for them. In many IT jobs, this criteria is fairly objective. You guys should really try talking to your management about these people instead of pigeonholing and stereotyping them. See why they are highly regarded and why companies are investing thousands in them. You might learn that they're not the braindead automatons you think they are.

I am an Aerospace/Mechanical Engineer, not IT. I've had several issues with people not standing up and fighting for what they know is right. Happens with Americans too, but it is much more prevalent with people on H1Bs for reasons already stated.

Maybe at your company you have no issue with releasing a bad product because someone refused to speak up, in my world you could end up killing hundreds of people and costing hundreds of millions in damage to the company.

I've worked with a lot of international people and for the most part I think they are good, but so are the majority of Americans I've worked with. Businesses like H1Bs, because they can pay the person less and since they have them by the balls, they get a better work ethic (which is business speak for people who won't quit when you treat them like shit). As soon as the green card comes, they act just like any American and demand more money/treatment/benefits and if they don't get it the quit just like any American.

 

[Zorba]

I've known several companies that want an H1B1 worker from India do less than scrupulous things in getting the workers they want at the pay they want. Many laws force companies to "prove" that there is no American workers qualified or interested in the work they have to offer.

So what they do is take out a tiny crappy ad in a publication no one reads. Post a the job opening there for the minimum required time by law. Then when no one applies for the job, they use that as "proof" that no one wanted the job. Then request to allow an H1B1 worker to come over instead.

Even if someone does apply, they do less than a half as job of trying to interview them or even give the person the feeling they are even wanted at the job. They don't call back in a timely manner on purpose, and drag their feet at making an offer on purpose hoping the person finds greener pastures elsewhere. I know a few companies here in San Antonio that is their standard MO hiring processes for much of their tech workers. They do hire Americans for certain leadership or very critical IT positions, but anything else they rather have an H1B1 worker. They can screw them over on pay, work hours, and benefits. They do that because they know those people coming over won't complain because they don't realize they are being screwed over. Mainly because the job here is 1000x better than anything they had back in India.

This was basically my experience at the small company which hired people on H1Bs. They couldn't keep American engineers because it was a horrible environment, with crap benefits and no pay increases. They got Americans in the door by lying through their teeth in the interviews, but Americans quit generally before they got to 12 months.

My coworker who was on an H1B, got it even worse since his pay was much lower and they got/forced him to work 70 hours a week with no OT. He hated it, knew he was getting screwed, but knew he had to stick out until he got his green card.

 

[realibrad]

I am an Aerospace/Mechanical Engineer, not IT. I've had several issues with people not standing up and fighting for what they know is right. Happens with Americans too, but it is much more prevalent with people on H1Bs for reasons already stated.

Maybe at your company you have no issue with releasing a bad product because someone refused to speak up, in my world you could end up killing hundreds of people and costing hundreds of millions in damage to the company.

I've worked with a lot of international people and for the most part I think they are good, but so are the majority of Americans I've worked with. Businesses like H1Bs, because they can pay the person less and since they have them by the balls, they get a better work ethic (which is business speak for people who won't quit when you treat them like shit). As soon as the green card comes, they act just like any American and demand more money/treatment/benefits and if they don't get it the quit just like any American.

To be fair, if a company may go bankrupt or kill hundreds of people based off of a single person not wanting to say something, thats a shitty company. The bigger issue there is the company structure, and not the foreign worker. Would everyone not be better off fixing the structure vs keeping out the foreign worker?

 

[Zorba]

Actually, I don't work in HR. And the first job I ever had as an engineer got outsourced to Singapore. The only difference is that instead of pissing, moaning, and blaming like the people in this thread I used it as motivation to make myself valuable and indispensable and it's served me well.

No such thing as an indispensable person, period. Any company of more than a ~15 people could survive if any one person left, most smaller than that could too.

Decisions to outsource or hire H1Bs at most large companies are done at such a high level and removed from the actual workers, it doesn't matter how good an individual is, everyone in the group gets it.

BTW: Something I was taught when I was an engineering intern, trying to make yourself indispensable, destroys your career. Because if people think they can't live without you in a certain position, you will never be promoted out of it. And most people how think they are indispensable are really horrible team players, because they don't want anyone else to know their job.

I've had may "indispensable" co-workers leave, either through retirement or layoffs and everyone is much happier and better off once they are gone.

 

[Zorba]

To be fair, if a company may go bankrupt or kill hundreds of people based off of a single person not wanting to say something, thats a shitty company. The bigger issue there is the company structure, and not the foreign worker. Would everyone not be better off fixing the structure vs keeping out the foreign worker?

Yes, and there is a process in place every where I have ever worked to try to catch screw ups before they become a big deal. But if the one person that knows something is wrong never speaks up, the process breaks down. There are tons of aviation accidents that have been directly caused by this, you can read about them in any engineering ethics textbook.

In the real world engineers are paid to know their systems better than any one else in the world. Management, other engineers and departments don't know enough or have the time to provide a 100% back check. So if the one person the knows the most says something is ok, or doesn't fight against something that is not ok, everyone else generally assumes it is fine unless there are big obvious problems on the surface.

When I was at an airline, I'd have maintenance leadership way above my level yelling and cussing me out trying to get approval to do something stupid, you have to be willing to sit there and say no hundreds of time, even after they drag in your upper management that never backs you. I also have a ton of examples where the back check system would not have prevented an issue if the individual engineer didn't stand up and fight. A lot of time it was the back check system (management and QA) that were pushing for the stupid thing to begin with.

It isn't just the big things either, just doing general troubleshooting you have to be willing to stand up against people that want to skip steps or do non-beneficial steps. I've seen a lot of time and money wasted because the person that knew better didn't want to have a confrontation.

But airplanes aren't Dell Tech Support where if you answer wrong there are no real consequences, same is true for most engineering in any heavy industry.

 

[senseamp]

Yep, you can often tell in an engineering review who is on H1B. Usually the wallflowers.
I had H1B guys I was friendly with, after I destroyed an idea at a design review would come up to me later and say I knew that was wrong too, but I didn't want to say anything, because it would be too confrontational.
It wasn't life and death, but the company spent billions on R&D for failed projects that dragged on for years after everyone knew they were dead ends, because no one wanted to rock the boat and say it out loud. And once a project failed, no one wanted to do a post mortem and assign any blame, so same mistakes were repeated on the next one. Once you get a critical mass of risk averse people, it's death for a tech company.

 

[HumblePie]

My experience in the IT world for developers goes for a few decades now. I'll explain my experiences with H1B1's from my perspective. H1B1s fall into two categories.

First category are the gems. The gems are great people, hard workers, very bright, that work hard, work long hours, and love the little pay they get. These are the exceptions and not the normal from the hundreds of H1B1s I've met and worked with.

The second category is the one that most H1B1's tend to fall into. The norm is that most of them have just enough IT knowledge to get themselves into trouble. They work hard, are willing to learn *a bit*, and don't generally complain. Still, many H1B1's tend to lack complex problem solving skills, have very poor documentation procedures, and tend to be "yes" men at the job. H1B1's make very good processors. They do work hard and can follow a simple task from A to Z very quickly, and usually efficiently. If asked to go from A to F, sometimes skip to M, sometimes go back to C, maybe do every third step, or maybe not even get to Z.... yah that is usually far too much for the average H1B1 to figure out. The more complex the problem solving skills a job requires, the less likely an H1B1 will actually do a good job unless they happen to be one of the few gems.

So many companies tend to leave the complex problem solving IT skills to those designing everything, and the grunt work is *supposed* to go to the H1B1s. Even still, they constantly ask and pester the designer over many very simple problems.

I'm speaking strictly from a job perspective here and what I've seen. It has nothing to do with an H1B1 individually at all. I hang out with them, played ball with them, eat meals with them, and get along great with foreigners of all countries. That doesn't mean I am going to gloss over what the typical H1B1's strength and weaknesses are in the IT job market.

What an H1B1 represents to a company is a cheap IT *grunt* worker that works for peanuts, doesn't rock the boat, can do easy repetitive tasks that don't require complex problem solving, and doesn't generally care that they are screwed over by management.

When companies recognize those are the strengths and weaknesses, the company does well when utilizing the H1B1's correctly. Unless a specific one can demonstrate good complex problem solving capabilities, you don't give them that position. This isn't to say they are stupid. They are far from that. They just process information differently. Usually due to cultural influences.

 

[realibrad]

Yes, and there is a process in place every where I have ever worked to try to catch screw ups before they become a big deal. But if the one person that knows something is wrong never speaks up, the process breaks down. There are tons of aviation accidents that have been directly caused by this, you can read about them in any engineering ethics textbook.

In the real world engineers are paid to know their systems better than any one else in the world. Management, other engineers and departments don't know enough or have the time to provide a 100% back check. So if the one person the knows the most says something is ok, or doesn't fight against something that is not ok, everyone else generally assumes it is fine unless there are big obvious problems on the surface.

When I was at an airline, I'd have maintenance leadership way above my level yelling and cussing me out trying to get approval to do something stupid, you have to be willing to sit there and say no hundreds of time, even after they drag in your upper management that never backs you. I also have a ton of examples where the back check system would not have prevented an issue if the individual engineer didn't stand up and fight. A lot of time it was the back check system (management and QA) that were pushing for the stupid thing to begin with.

It isn't just the big things either, just doing general troubleshooting you have to be willing to stand up against people that want to skip steps or do non-beneficial steps. I've seen a lot of time and money wasted because the person that knew better didn't want to have a confrontation.

But airplanes aren't Dell Tech Support where if you answer wrong there are no real consequences, same is true for most engineering in any heavy industry.

So the fundamental issue is that you think its less likely to happen under an American worker because they are usually more extroverted and will speak up more often. I cant argue for or against that, because I simply don't know if that is wrong or right. It still seems like the main issue is the management that does not hire the correct people though. I think time/money would be better spent on trying to get the right people into the correct positions, vs making the assumption that an American worker will speak up.

 

[Wreckem]

I don't believe there is a shortage of skilled technical workers in this country. When a company says "We can't find any skilled technical workers, so we have to import them," that is corporate-speak for "We can't find anyone in the US who will work as cheaply as foreigners."

There not a STEM labor shortage in the US. We have more STEM educated people than STEM jobs. There is not a skilled labor(in other fields) either. We have way more skilled people than skilled jobs. There "may" be a shortage if there was mass retirement/mass die off of the baby boomer. That is a huge "may" though.

When it comes down to it, businesses wants to expand the H1B program in order to keep wages depressed. Period.

One example of H1B abuse is several school districts in North Texas were hiring H1Bs as teachers. When 1. there were plenty of people willing to take those jobs 2. they weren't paying them the same as teachers 2. they were forcing them to live multiple people to small apartments.

They got hammered by the Feds and are no longer hiring H1Bs anymore(as of the 2014-2015 school year). It was a terrible idea to begin with(other than being illegal) because poor english speakers teaching urban kids who are way below grade level in English was disaster waiting to happen.

 

[Wreckem]

My experience in the IT world for developers goes for a few decades now. I'll explain my experiences with H1B1's from my perspective. H1B1s fall into two categories.

First category are the gems. The gems are great people, hard workers, very bright, that work hard, work long hours, and love the little pay they get. These are the exceptions and not the normal from the hundreds of H1B1s I've met and worked with.

The second category is the one that most H1B1's tend to fall into. The norm is that most of them have just enough IT knowledge to get themselves into trouble. They work hard, are willing to learn *a bit*, and don't generally complain. Still, many H1B1's tend to lack complex problem solving skills, have very poor documentation procedures, and tend to be "yes" men at the job. H1B1's make very good processors. They do work hard and can follow a simple task from A to Z very quickly, and usually efficiently. If asked to go from A to F, sometimes skip to M, sometimes go back to C, maybe do every third step, or maybe not even get to Z.... yah that is usually far too much for the average H1B1 to figure out. The more complex the problem solving skills a job requires, the less likely an H1B1 will actually do a good job unless they happen to be one of the few gems.

So many companies tend to leave the complex problem solving IT skills to those designing everything, and the grunt work is *supposed* to go to the H1B1s. Even still, they constantly ask and pester the designer over many very simple problems.

I'm speaking strictly from a job perspective here and what I've seen. It has nothing to do with an H1B1 individually at all. I hang out with them, played ball with them, eat meals with them, and get along great with foreigners of all countries. That doesn't mean I am going to gloss over what the typical H1B1's strength and weaknesses are in the IT job market.

What an H1B1 represents to a company is a cheap IT *grunt* worker that works for peanuts, doesn't rock the boat, can do easy repetitive tasks that don't require complex problem solving, and doesn't generally care that they are screwed over by management.

When companies recognize those are the strengths and weaknesses, the company does well when utilizing the H1B1's correctly. Unless a specific one can demonstrate good complex problem solving capabilities, you don't give them that position. This isn't to say they are stupid. They are far from that. They just process information differently. Usually due to cultural influences.

H1Bs represent a dilution of the value of skilled labor. US citizens are getting it from both ends. Unskilled labor is being filled by rampant illegal immigration. And skilled labor is being compressed by legal immigration. Between illegal immigration, H1Bs, automation and outsourcing what jobs will eventually be left?

 

[Wreckem]

My mom's company brings in a ton of physical therapist from the Philippines on H1Bs. Not only do they make sure the employees know they will be deported if fired, if the employee is fired the company charges them for all visa/relocation expenses. I know they charged one H1B physical therapist $23,000 after being fired, and filed suit against her to get the money, which I assume keeps her from ever getting a new H1B. The physical therapist was fired because "It just wasn't working out," so not like she was fired for gross misconduct or anything.

The point is, it isn't just the fear of being deported but also the fear that company will make sure you can never come back. Makes for very submissive employees.

The H1B program and the workers in it tend to be heavily abused. More so when they bully H1Bs like in your example. Losing a job as a H1B doesn't automatically get you deported. H1B employers who like to bully their H1B employees like to tell them that though.

 

[Zaap]

Actually, I don't work in HR. And the first job I ever had as an engineer got outsourced to Singapore. The only difference is that instead of pissing, moaning, and blaming like the people in this thread I used it as motivation to make myself valuable and indispensable and it's served me well.

Exactly what more people need to do. Basically you're not a National Pity Party Partcipant. Of course, few want to hear this... when you're the most special people in the world, what could you possibly have to do to make yourself more valuable?

Issues of companies seeking cheap labor are real, but just as real are too many people thinking they are gods gift to business just for existing and that a great job is a birthright just for existing so they don't have to ever compete with the rest of the world.

The big irony... the later situation FEEDS the first.