Ballmer repeats threats against Linux

Shamrock

Golden Member
Oct 11, 1999
1,439
560
136

Hyperblaze

Lifer
May 31, 2001
10,028
1
81
blah blah blah blah, FUD, next?

I know he's the CEO of Microsoft and all, but haven't we heard enough bullsh!t from him as it is?
 

Bluestealth

Senior member
Jul 5, 2004
434
0
0
I wonder if someone can just get this legal skirmish to go into a full blown war and kill software patents forever...
I am sure Linux vendors could band together and sue Microsoft for slander or something. For that is what this truly is, they most likely have no patents that would hold up to review.
I am really sick of their legal games, either start lawsuits or SHUT THE F*** UP!
This scaremongering isn't how the patent system was meant to be used. It allows Microsoft just another way to leverage their monopoly and be anti-competitive. I have NOTHING wrong with Microsoft being a monopoly but at a certain point it becomes not only immoral but probably also illegal to me to shut competitors out by such LOW means. Copyrights on Software should be legal, software patents (if they even should exist) should be so rare that they stand out as something truly earth shattering, and shouldn't last more then 5 years.
 

stash

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2000
5,468
0
0
Copyrights on Software should be legal, software patents (if they even should exist) should be so rare that they stand out as something truly earth shattering, and shouldn't last more then 5 years
Tell that to IBM, one of the biggest proponents of Open Source, also holder of the most software patents.
 

Bluestealth

Senior member
Jul 5, 2004
434
0
0
Originally posted by: stash
Copyrights on Software should be legal, software patents (if they even should exist) should be so rare that they stand out as something truly earth shattering, and shouldn't last more then 5 years
Tell that to IBM, one of the biggest proponents of Open Source, also holder of the most software patents.

Of course... necessary evil... if Microsoft had all the patents how do you defend yourself? That was a very silly response stash. Just because the system is broken doesn't mean the system will fix itself or protect you from its flaws. Also why I mentioned the legal ****** storm... Which Linux vendor would have the most to fire back with?... I hope someone starts it so all lose...
 

stash

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2000
5,468
0
0
Of course... necessary evil... if Microsoft had all the patents how do you defend yourself?
Huh? Necessary evil why? Because of Microsoft? IBM has been patenting software for decades.

I'm not saying that I think software patents are a good thing. I just think it is ironic that patents are often trotted out by Open Source proponents as evidence of Microsoft's anticompetitive ways, when IBM invented the practice.
 

nweaver

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2001
6,813
1
0
Originally posted by: stash
Of course... necessary evil... if Microsoft had all the patents how do you defend yourself?
Huh? Necessary evil why? Because of Microsoft? IBM has been patenting software for decades.

I'm not saying that I think software patents are a good thing. I just think it is ironic that patents are often trotted out by Open Source proponents as evidence of Microsoft's anticompetitive ways, when IBM invented the practice.

Is IBM threatening Open source people right now?
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
Originally posted by: stash
Of course... necessary evil... if Microsoft had all the patents how do you defend yourself?
Huh? Necessary evil why? Because of Microsoft? IBM has been patenting software for decades.

I'm not saying that I think software patents are a good thing. I just think it is ironic that patents are often trotted out by Open Source proponents as evidence of Microsoft's anticompetitive ways, when IBM invented the practice.

The difference is that IBM donated a small amount of it's patents to the open source community were as Microsoft is threatening the open source community with software patents.

It's also supposed that Microsoft has extracted licensing fees from certain large companies using Linux.

Anyways, I don't trust IBM anymore then Microsoft. IBM is happy to use open source and recommend open source to it's customers. They aren't doing it for moral reasons, it's pure profit motivation (which is fine, but you know how far you can trust them.)

This is pure FUD though. If Microsoft was to actually take any active action against open source they'd get nailed to the wall. They are the ones that are most vunerable to the system. They realy aren't in the position.

Here is a interesting article that helps to illistrate why. Currently it's subscription, but check back in a week and it'll be open. It checks the amount of code contributed to Linux kernel and were it came from.

If Microsoft goes after Linux they would have to deal with lawsuites to and from IBM, Redhat, Novell, Nokia, Intel, Broadcom, Oracle, and Sony. All of whom have software patents and hire developers to contribute various improvements to the Linux kernel.

It'll be obvious when Microsoft gets serious, if they ever get serious, becuase they would announce what patents Linux is vunerable to.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
For those companies I mentioned lines of code from just over the past year.
IBM 200473
Redhat 361539
Novell 91594
Nokia 39676
Intel 78041
Broadcom 8349(not sure)
Oracle 21251
and Sony 8497(not sure. They contributed a lot of the code for drivers PS3 and Cell support)

And that was spread out over the group of corporations that contribute code. I just picked those because they were the scarier ones. Over the past year 740990 lines of code were done by businesses that the author of the article couldn't figure out were they came from (he is just using scripts to search through commits)

In comparision 239888 lines of code were contributed by individuals working on the kernel on their own time.
 

Brazen

Diamond Member
Jul 14, 2000
4,259
0
0
Originally posted by: stash
Of course... necessary evil... if Microsoft had all the patents how do you defend yourself?
Huh? Necessary evil why? Because of Microsoft? IBM has been patenting software for decades.

I'm not saying that I think software patents are a good thing. I just think it is ironic that patents are often trotted out by Open Source proponents as evidence of Microsoft's anticompetitive ways, when IBM invented the practice.

As mweaver said, the flaw in your argument is that IBM doesn't keep throwing ranting threats around.

Plus, just because IBM does it, still does not make it ok.
 

stash

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2000
5,468
0
0
As mweaver said, the flaw in your argument is that IBM doesn't keep throwing ranting threats around.
Well, their current behavior with ODF vs ECMA OXML would suggest otherwise, but that's a whole other ball of wax.

Plus, just because IBM does it, still does not make it ok.
I agree with you there. I'm just saying be consistent. Software patents are a bad idea generally, no matter who does it. Not just software patents are bad because Microsoft uses them to make threats (which I agree is bad).
 

Rio Rebel

Administrator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,194
0
0
Don't go to the extreme as a reaction to the flaws in the current system.

Patents (and Copyrights) are a necessary part of the system to create an environment that allows someone to profit from innovation. Take away their ability to make a profit, and you will be slashing the innovation.

However, this doesn't mean that the current system is as effective as it should be. We have to continuously monitor to make sure that patents aren't abused to create de facto monopolies or to allow a corporation with a big legal team to bully everyone from innovating on their own.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
Patents (and Copyrights) are a necessary part of the system to create an environment that allows someone to profit from innovation. Take away their ability to make a profit, and you will be slashing the innovation.

That's the general idea, but how well it works and how applicable it is to software is higly detable. But even assuming that it works and applies to software just fine, don't you think that 20 years is a little long for software patent? Most companies don't support a release of software for more than 5-10 years and those are the extreme cases. Most software is unsupported after 2-3 years.
 

Goosemaster

Lifer
Apr 10, 2001
48,777
3
81
I must say drag and others have brought some interesting information to the table.

Can anyone predict what Novell's response, if any will be? They got royally trashed today.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
Can anyone predict what Novell's response, if any will be? They got royally trashed today.

I doubt it'll be any different from the last time Ballmer made remarks like this and that time all they said was something to the effect of "We happen to disagree with them on this issue.".
 

fraquar

Member
Jan 28, 2007
38
0
0
My favorite line from the article:

""We have done very well versus Linux on the desktop and on the server, and I am hopeful that we will build share, particularly in Web servers and high-performance clusters, from Linux in the next year," he told analysts."

Done well against Linux on the desktop? Microsoft OWNS the desktop (and has for a long time) - the only thing they can do is lose market share (they bought out or forced out virtually every non open source competitor in existence on the desktop). Based on his comments - he's trying to threaten out Open source (since they can't buy it out)

Now on the server front it's a whole different ballgame - Microsoft has some serious catching up to do - and at the prices they charge for their server products (and the way they are designed) - they may never will on the global scale.

Problem with Microsoft on the server front is that is exactly what Linux is desgned around - focus on doing one thing and doing it extremely well. Microsoft bundles way too much stuff with their server products - much of which isn't even necessary for the vast majority of people that use them for a single specific task like Web Servers.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
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However, this doesn't mean that the current system is as effective as it should be. We have to continuously monitor to make sure that patents aren't abused to create de facto monopolies or to allow a corporation with a big legal team to bully everyone from innovating on their own.


Patents just dont' work with software.

Patents are a conscruct. It's a ethical thing. The idea behind patents is that society at large sacrifices it's freedom to do certain things for a certain time people so that a small group or individual can profit from inventions.

The profit is high motivation for creating new ideas. And a patent is temporary so that if you want to keep on making money your going to have to keep on inventing.

So ultimately what you have is a termporary loss to society which you trade for hopefully a net gain.

The second part of a patent is...
Also in order to get a patent you must reveal your invention and describe it's function and concepts spelled out in detail in the patent application. After getting a patent these applications are in the public domain. They are used by researchers and other inventors then then create new ideas based on your ideas, which they themselves can patent, and it allows industry the chance to understand and perfect the use of your invention in their own products (to which they can then pay you or wait till the patent expires to release their product).

This is to counter the natural tendancy for trade secrets. So companies can make a choice, reveal in detail their invention to the public and get a temporary monopoly to which they can license to other people, or keep it a secret and hope that nobody reverse engineers it. (which is 100% legal and many many large companies around today got their start by reverse engineering other people's stuff and releasing it. Adobe for example. Compaq did the same thing with the IBM PC Bios)



So when the concept of patents were put into law in the USA in Europe if you were a inventor then basicly your inventions become property of the state. Many many great inventors and such never ever made any money off their stuff and basicly they operated as wards of the state. Everything they have is bought and owned by the state, they were operating under state control, and the state took their ideas. More or less.

So with patents this made the USA a very very attractive place for very smart people to immigrate to. Because then engineers and scientists not only could be their own men, but could make truckloads of money from it also.

And it's still like that. That's why most countries honor patents. The thing make sense for engineering and science and it's a wonderfull way to allow society's resources (in the form of money) go to the people that are the most productive at producing new ideas.

But patents don't work with everything and software (at least in general) suffers greatly from it.

If your curious why software patents are bad for programmers and companies were otherwise patents are good for inventors and companies there are a few pages that will help you out...

This page is the classic one. Everything they talk about is still true today, except that it's much worse.
http://lpf.ai.mit.edu/Patents/patents.html

Another thing to keep in mind is that software complexity is much much higher...

Say software program vs automobile.

* Software has copyright protections, a automobile does not. (copyrights and patents are two entirely different areas of laws and are unrelated)
* A automobile may have hundreds of potentially patenable inventions for each new model. A large software program will have several thousand. Software is on a order of magnitude more complex then mechanical devices, and unlike cars or bridges are not restricted by the laws of nature.
* A automobile requires teams of engineers to design, months of expensive testing to prove, teams of people to construct in plants costing millions of dollars, and out of that lawyers are a very small overhead. A programmer can go to wallmart and buy a PC for 300 dollars and have the ability to create software that is as complex and usefull as any corporation on the planet.
* Automobile makers have a relatively easy time avoiding patent violations. With programmers if your making software your violating patents, its impossible to avoid.

There are several reason for these things.

Keep in mind that software is something that is relatively new. It has aspects that are similar to engineering, and writing a book, or making a food recipe, and lots of other things, but it's still different from all those things.

In 2006 alone there were almost 41,000 software-related patents granted by the US patent office.

Doing a search through the patent database for 'software' I came across 289,348 patents. Look through them yourself and ask yourself if this is something that makes sense to have. Of course a lot of them aren't nessicarially about software, but most are.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Pars...&FIELD1=&co1=AND&TERM2=&FIELD2=&d=PTXT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_patent_debate

What is probably going to happen if there isn't major reform with the system is that basicly any company that wants to do software will simply do it outside of the USA. It just doesn't make sense to operate in a environment were your subject to such restrictions and legal risks. Then companies doing work outside the US will then just come back, get as much software patents possible themselves and just extract as much licensing fees from companies still operating out of this country.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
Here is something that is kinda funny.

Software Freedom Law Center is a pro-bono orginization supporting Free software developers.
They are on the same side as Microsoft in this case

Microsoft is being sued by AT&T for violating US patents for software outside of the US. The kicker is that the software doesn't violate patents when it's not being used with hardware so it's ok to redistribute, but once you install it then it violates. Bizzare stuff.

edit:
actually it's Microsoft agrueing that software itself is not patentable and that only once you combine it with hardware does that thing that is patentable become a reality. Something like that. It's a attempt to try to skirt around the US export laws in regards to patents.

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but I am no lawyer
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
This is just MS whining over the fact that they don't control OSS, and are in fact inferior to OSS in many ways.

Also, if they are "doing well" against linux, why the legal sh!t?

In short, linux is just bitchslaping them without even trying and they're not happy. Screw'em.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
Well like they said:

"There is no such thing as bad publicity"

It's going to work for some people, but one of the best things that Microsoft can do for linux adoption is making sure that Linux-is-a-threat messages are sprayed all over the place.

This sort of FUD is only going to have a temporary impact.
 

greylica

Senior member
Aug 11, 2006
276
0
0
Ballmer and Gates are crying a lot, they just have all the money they can need, and for what ?
I guess they will mount their houses in mars to be the first marcians inthe entire world.
People are still dying for food, and our planet is dying everyday. They simply don´t care.
That´s because I´m a Happy Linuxer, in the third world like they say, I woudn´t recomend people buy Microsoft O.S. over their food,
nor recomend Starter Edition. Linux for all. They are trying to create a new society mirrored in the problems we have today, trying to
make social scales based on O.S.
Our global society just sucks, imagine a copy of this defects in their digital exclusion society ?

Violence.

But the violence in digital area has it´s names, Virus, Trojans, Spywares, etc.

They are offering a cure for the disease they leave growing over the years, and telling us that is the ecossystem. They fight piracy before the virus, why ?
They leave a failed ecossystem growth, now they are only justifying for themselves and for people what everyone was seeing over the years of the new information era.

At least we have a chance to fix the history with Linux. Without the digital exclusion disease they continue trying to push with their prices.
No Ballmer. It´s not piracy affecting Vista, Nor Linux,

It´s the price we don´t want to pay. The Eula we don´t want. The limitations and the complexity we don´t need

 

gerwen

Senior member
Nov 24, 2006
312
0
0
Originally posted by: greylica
Ballmer and Gates are crying a lot, they just have all the money they can need, and for what ?
<snip>
People are still dying for food, and our planet is dying everyday. They simply don´t care.

I dunno about Ballmer, but you're dead wrong there about Gates:
http://www.gatesfoundation.org/default.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_and_Melinda_Gates_Foundation

'Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation (B&MGF) is the largest transparently operated charitable foundation in the world, founded by Bill and Melinda Gates in 2000. The primary aims of the foundation are, globally, to enhance healthcare and reduce extreme poverty, and, in the United States, to expand educational opportunities and access to information technology.'

Whatever his motivation, he's become a philanthropist of late. Argue what you will of his business practices, but arguing that he doesn't care about starving people is ignorant.
 

Smilin

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2002
7,357
0
0
Originally posted by: greylica
Ballmer and Gates are crying a lot, they just have all the money they can need, and for what ?
I guess they will mount their houses in mars to be the first marcians inthe entire world.
People are still dying for food, and our planet is dying everyday. They simply don´t care.
That´s because I´m a Happy Linuxer, in the third world like they say, I woudn´t recomend people buy Microsoft O.S. over their food,
nor recomend Starter Edition. Linux for all. They are trying to create a new society mirrored in the problems we have today, trying to
make social scales based on O.S.
Our global society just sucks, imagine a copy of this defects in their digital exclusion society ?

Violence.

But the violence in digital area has it´s names, Virus, Trojans, Spywares, etc.

They are offering a cure for the disease they leave growing over the years, and telling us that is the ecossystem. They fight piracy before the virus, why ?
They leave a failed ecossystem growth, now they are only justifying for themselves and for people what everyone was seeing over the years of the new information era.

At least we have a chance to fix the history with Linux. Without the digital exclusion disease they continue trying to push with their prices.
No Ballmer. It´s not piracy affecting Vista, Nor Linux,

It´s the price we don´t want to pay. The Eula we don´t want. The limitations and the complexity we don´t need

Have you never heard of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation?
 
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