Bankruptcy advice? Other ideas I haven't come up with?

Viper GTS

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
38,107
433
136
I have a close family friend that is in a tough situation, I'm trying to come up with ideas.

She (26) was the primary caretaker of her only remaining parent for the last year, her mom died in November. Despite having siblings she was the only one around at the end, and ended up being the one to do all funeral arrangements. Only her name on any of the paperwork ($8k and change). Her siblings had a loose agreement to split it into thirds, but of course now they have no money. The funeral home is now threatening lawsuits if she doesn't have a check for them by the end of the week.

She makes essentially nothing (<$17k in North Jersey), has very little cash, has nothing of any value to sell, and has existing charged off debt totaling $7k or so. Without the funeral bill I think her situation was salvageable - She has no history of excess spending or credit card use (chargeoffs are medical and vet) so it's not a fundamental problem with her. She simply has no money. Creditors have tried and failed to have her wages garnished, even the courts here in NJ agree there is nothing to be had.

The Gofundme she set up grossed $50. My wife and I are already providing substantial ongoing financial assistance with her housing/utilities/groceries/etc and I'm vehemently opposed to subsidizing her deadbeat family so paying it myself is likely not going to happen. I am willing to fund and guide her through the bankruptcy process.

Although I'd ideally like to see her avoid the bankruptcy I'm really not seeing a huge downside here. Her credit is already screwed (ish at least). She makes so little that it would be a clear shot to chapter 7 as far as I can see, and very simple - Three or four creditors total with approximately one year's gross pay for her.

My thinking is that this is precisely the kind of situation that bankruptcy is designed for. She wipes everything but her school loans which she has recently gotten back to good standing, keeps those current, has my help for the next few years, and in 2-3 years likely has better credit than she has today.

She will basically do whatever I recommend here, what's her best move? Any value in going to the funeral home and saying look if you play nice her intent is to pay you in full, but if you go nuclear and get a judgment you'll end up with literally nothing?

Viper GTS
 
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Ken g6

Programming Moderator, Elite Member
Moderator
Dec 11, 1999
16,282
3,903
75
Is it too late to make cheaper funeral arrangements? Edit: November, so I guess so.

As long as they can't garnish her wages is there any point to bankruptcy?
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,414
1,574
126
I'm not seeing the downside to bankruptcy TBH. Might take her 10 years to get out of that hole anyway.
 

Viper GTS

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
38,107
433
136
Is it too late to make cheaper funeral arrangements? Edit: November, so I guess so.

As long as they can't garnish her wages is there any point to bankruptcy?

Yes far too late. NJ actually has a pretty generous burial assistance program that she found out about the day after the funeral, so that was out too.

As far as what's the point... That actually is valid. Doing nothing isn't my nature, so I missed that one. Maybe saving it is a better plan, with the intent to get her into a better job and try to repay it?

Viper GTS
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,414
1,574
126
As long as they can't garnish her wages is there any point to bankruptcy?

won't bankruptcy at least shield her from future inquiries? Otherwise it's going to be creditors calling for years...
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,644
7,877
126
won't bankruptcy at least shield her from future inquiries? Otherwise it's going to be creditors calling for years...
That's what call filtering's for ;^)

I'd probably do nothing. Might send a xerox of my ass to the funeral home since they cared enough to threaten me. Doing nothing's easy, and I'm all about easy.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,528
5,944
136
I'd probably do nothing. Might send a xerox of my ass to the funeral home since they cared enough to threaten me. Doing nothing's easy, and I'm all about easy.
Why should the funeral home take it in the shorts because of her deadbeat family? Guess they needed to hold the body until payment in full is rendered (some here do). Guess they also need to do a credit check/property search 1st too. Granted most are as bad as lawyers for fee-ing the remaining family to death. Someone should have recommended cremation. Costs $1K here.

OP, did she pay her "share" to the funeral home? I'm guessing not since you're helping with her everyday expenses.

BK will stop the calls but it costs $$. Doing nothing costs nothing. Either way she'll have to rebuild her credit if she ever gets a job that would afford her being able to pay debts back.
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,644
7,877
126
Why should the funeral home take it in the shorts because of her deadbeat family?
That's the cost of doing business. If your first approach to me is a threat, I'm gonna fuck you hard. Any inclination I had to work with you is out the door.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,528
5,944
136
That's the cost of doing business. If your first approach to me is a threat, I'm gonna fuck you hard. Any inclination I had to work with you is out the door.
We're 60 days out. I doubt their 1st approach was threats (I also could be wrong). There are, at least, 2 sides to every story. I'll lay out $1 that she's avoided them. And I guess the veterinarian gets to eat it too?

I have sympathy for her situation but, obviously, financial mistakes have been made. I have a customer who's Dad died. She carried $3K on him. Plenty for a simple affair around here. The step mom/siblings, "We have to have xyz. Dad would have loved abc. Oh, the limo...." But they didn't have a fucking penny to help with the costs. My customer comes in to get $1K to finish out the extra costs. I told her exactly where she should tell her family to get the fuck off. She didn't listen and I did what I do for a living.


I ate $27K last year, my $$. That's why my cost of doing business comes with a 35% price tag.
 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
6,485
2,361
136
I wouldn't negotiate with funeral home, I think it's pointless given her debt to income ratio. At this point yes, Chapter 7 is her best option. If she doesn't file it'll take her decades to pay it off. Her credit is in shambles, she got nothing to lose. Bankruptcy will wipe the slate clean and will allow her to succeed should she get a better paying job instead of being permanently shackled with debt until she dies.

Follow FelixDeCat advice, you want to be thorough and make sure all of her debts are gone.
 

Viper GTS

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
38,107
433
136
We're 60 days out. I doubt their 1st approach was threats (I also could be wrong). There are, at least, 2 sides to every story. I'll lay out $1 that she's avoided them. And I guess the veterinarian gets to eat it too?

I have sympathy for her situation but, obviously, financial mistakes have been made. I have a customer who's Dad died. She carried $3K on him. Plenty for a simple affair around here. The step mom/siblings, "We have to have xyz. Dad would have loved abc. Oh, the limo...." But they didn't have a fucking penny to help with the costs. My customer comes in to get $1K to finish out the extra costs. I told her exactly where she should tell her family to get the fuck off. She didn't listen and I did what I do for a living.


I ate $27K last year, my $$. That's why my cost of doing business comes with a 35% price tag.

You'll have no argument from me that mistakes have been made. Yes she's been avoiding his calls (against my advice).

However - The thing I have learned from this experience is that access to the system is not universal. If you parents had jobs, and your grandparents had jobs, and you grew up in a household where bills got paid on time and education was valued... Guess what? You won the fucking lottery. Even if you don't have 'money' those things made you a functioning part of the system and gave you the opportunity to work hard and make progress. My parents never had much income when I was a kid, we weren't really poor but solidly lower middle class. Until the last six months or so of my heavy involvement in her life I would have bristled at the suggestion that my current income/financial stability was due to anything but me working my ass off, chasing jobs/money, self-educating, etc. I firmly believed that there was a base set of opportunities that existed to nearly everyone, and with sufficient drive you could do reasonably well for yourself. Not Ivanka level opportunity, but at least enough that an upper middle class existence was within reach to anyone reasonably intelligent and motivated.

I've since learned that I am a rich asshole with no perspective. I literally do not know anyone else (as in every day, not incidental out in public interactions) that doesn't have a six figure personal income. Not household, personal. It was shocking to me that I was so close to such poverty and completely blind to it. I now know that the opportunities that I have had made return on my input possible, and those opportunities are not universal. This has been eye-opening to say the least, and if you haven't had that experience yet in your life you should.

All this to say that I'm not willing to count mistakes against people when they had nothing to work with. One charged off ER visit and a vet bill are very different than maxed out credit cards and a house full of over-consumption.

That said....

We are doing our best to re-train her. It's going to take a while, and I don't see any drastic changes in income on her horizon. I am going to run these options by her tonight (file now, or do nothing and wait with the expectation that it will happen eventually barring drastic changes in income).

I appreciate the input on how to properly chase down all debts. I have already been through her credit report, the plan had been that once the funeral bill was done we'd start tracking down the current owner of the few debts she has and try to do pay for deletes. I was hoping to have her on a secured credit card within six months or so to start building some positive history, but I don't think that's going to happen now. I did not know to check for liens with the county, I'm assuming a bankruptcy lawyer would know how to do all that?

Viper GTS
 

JM Aggie08

Diamond Member
Jan 3, 2006
8,184
813
136
She's got an easy Chapter 7.

The BR attorney will want between $1200 - $2400 in payments or upfront - you could loan her the money to meet the Monday deadline. Dont go too cheap though - you get what you pay for. This will give her a chance to get rid of all the old creditors, bad debt, etc.

Get a credit report FIRST and make sure everything is listed in the Chapter 7 filing. Also, do a search for her name in county records. She likely has a Hospital Lien filed against her and it will have to be listed in the filing to be wiped out. If you are doing this, may as well make it count. Any tax liens, etc will also show up in public county filings.

Also, if she thinks she may owe anyone anything beyond secured / unsecured creditors be sure to list them too. This will extinguish their claims against her.

She will have to take mandatory credit counseling, which costs money but she can get a waiver or reduced cost because of her situation.

Good luck!

Sound advice
 

monkeydelmagico

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2011
3,961
145
106
I now know that the opportunities that I have had made return on my input possible, and those opportunities are not universal. This has been eye-opening to say the least, and if you haven't had that experience yet in your life you should.

Big respect for trying to help someone out of a tough situation and recognizing that you won the birth lottery.

I agree that the bankruptcy is a good strategy.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
352
126
won't bankruptcy at least shield her from future inquiries? Otherwise it's going to be creditors calling for years...

A letter in the mail requesting no more phone contact stops that immediately. At least in most states.
 

Carson Dyle

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2012
8,174
524
126
Bankruptcy for an $8000 dept? That sounds foolish.

Have her negotiate with the funeral home. Call them yourself and put in a word for her. They can't get blood from a rock.
 

Carson Dyle

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2012
8,174
524
126
BTW, what is a "family friend"? Versus just a "friend"? I'm curious about the distinction.
 

Viper GTS

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
38,107
433
136
Bankruptcy for an $8000 dept? That sounds foolish.

Have her negotiate with the funeral home. Call them yourself and put in a word for her. They can't get blood from a rock.

More like $15-16k total with the other old debts, which is essentially a year of income for her.

BTW, what is a "family friend"? Versus just a "friend"? I'm curious about the distinction.

Family meaning mutual friend of both me + my wife, though it originated through me. As to why I included it, probably to ward off the suggestion that I'm in this for some reason other than that we care about her.

Viper GTS
 

Jeeebus

Diamond Member
Aug 29, 2006
9,180
897
126
If her financial situation is not likely to improve in the near future and creditors already can't garnish her wages, why bother spending $2,000 in a bankruptcy lawyer (plus costs) to accomplish what she already has (being essentially judgment proof). So they sue her, she doesn't respond, and they get a default judgment for $8k. Unless she has some recoverable asset, all they have is a piece of paper that she can wipe out later if they aggressively pursue the judgment.

I have several clients with hundreds of thousands of dollars in judgments against them who live rich/comfortable lives. If you're not inclined to pay, there's a lot that can be done to frustrate creditors beyond going nuclear with a bankruptcy filing.
 
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Viper GTS

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
38,107
433
136
If her financial situation is not likely to improve in the near future and creditors already can't garnish her wages, why bother spending $2,000 in a bankruptcy lawyer (plus costs) to accomplish what she already has (being essentially judgment proof). So they sue her, she doesn't respond, and they get a default judgment for $8k. Unless she has some recoverable asset, all they have is a piece of paper that she can wipe out later if they aggressively pursue the judgment.

I have several clients with hundreds of thousands of dollars in judgments against them who live rich/comfortable lives. If you're not inclined to pay, there's a lot that can be done to frustrate creditors beyond going nuclear with a bankruptcy filing.

My goal with this has been to help her build a stable financial life. I (perhaps naively) viewed filing bankruptcy as a way to get solid footing under her. As long as she doesn't do anything stupid (and I've seen no signs of this yet) she will have my financial backing to the extent that it is required to maintain her newly clean credit. While I'm not planning to pay off her student loans, for example, I will make sure that she always has the ability to pay them when they are due. Same with power, rent, etc. I really have no idea what I'm doing here but essentially training wheels. She's pretty close to covering everything already now that she's no longer caring for her mother and working full hours again, my monthly contributions to keep her cash levels constant have been fairly small. If I can keep her financially stable and not afraid of bills/phone calls/the way the world works then she will (I think) have bandwidth to start taking steps towards improving her income.

Viper GTS
 

ctbaars

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2009
1,568
163
106
^ What Jeeebus said. All I can add is always pay a creditor something, even a minimum amount. Pay $10.00 a month to the funeral home. They can't get blood from a stone. Time to step up and not work for minimum wage (literally). She'll also feel better about herself with a better job. Especially with a college education.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
Why should the funeral home take it in the shorts because of her deadbeat family? Guess they needed to hold the body until payment in full is rendered (some here do). Guess they also need to do a credit check/property search 1st too. Granted most are as bad as lawyers for fee-ing the remaining family to death. Someone should have recommended cremation. Costs $1K here.

OP, did she pay her "share" to the funeral home? I'm guessing not since you're helping with her everyday expenses.

BK will stop the calls but it costs $$. Doing nothing costs nothing. Either way she'll have to rebuild her credit if she ever gets a job that would afford her being able to pay debts back.

On one hand I completely agree with you, on the other hand funeral homes are notorious rip off/scam artists.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,528
5,944
136
You'll have no argument from me that mistakes have been made. Yes she's been avoiding his calls (against my advice).

However - The thing I have learned from this experience is that access to the system is not universal. If you parents had jobs, and your grandparents had jobs, and you grew up in a household where bills got paid on time and education was valued... Guess what? You won the fucking lottery. Even if you don't have 'money' those things made you a functioning part of the system and gave you the opportunity to work hard and make progress. My parents never had much income when I was a kid, we weren't really poor but solidly lower middle class. Until the last six months or so of my heavy involvement in her life I would have bristled at the suggestion that my current income/financial stability was due to anything but me working my ass off, chasing jobs/money, self-educating, etc. I firmly believed that there was a base set of opportunities that existed to nearly everyone, and with sufficient drive you could do reasonably well for yourself. Not Ivanka level opportunity, but at least enough that an upper middle class existence was within reach to anyone reasonably intelligent and motivated.

I've since learned that I am a rich asshole with no perspective. I literally do not know anyone else (as in every day, not incidental out in public interactions) that doesn't have a six figure personal income. Not household, personal. It was shocking to me that I was so close to such poverty and completely blind to it. I now know that the opportunities that I have had made return on my input possible, and those opportunities are not universal. This has been eye-opening to say the least, and if you haven't had that experience yet in your life you should.

All this to say that I'm not willing to count mistakes against people when they had nothing to work with. One charged off ER visit and a vet bill are very different than maxed out credit cards and a house full of over-consumption.

That said....

We are doing our best to re-train her. It's going to take a while, and I don't see any drastic changes in income on her horizon. I am going to run these options by her tonight (file now, or do nothing and wait with the expectation that it will happen eventually barring drastic changes in income).

I appreciate the input on how to properly chase down all debts. I have already been through her credit report, the plan had been that once the funeral bill was done we'd start tracking down the current owner of the few debts she has and try to do pay for deletes. I was hoping to have her on a secured credit card within six months or so to start building some positive history, but I don't think that's going to happen now. I did not know to check for liens with the county, I'm assuming a bankruptcy lawyer would know how to do all that?

Viper GTS
I don't think you're an asshole.

+1 for you putting in the effort. I hope it helps. For years, I would sit down with customers that were in a bad spot and work out a doable/realistic budget where the important things (rent/food/power) were taken care of and the loans might have to take a back seat for a while. I finally stopped bashing my head against a wall because most people do what they've always done/what their parents always did. They would blow the budget on some all important/must have/dire thing...like a trip to the beach.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
If her financial situation is not likely to improve in the near future and creditors already can't garnish her wages, why bother spending $2,000 in a bankruptcy lawyer (plus costs) to accomplish what she already has (being essentially judgment proof). So they sue her, she doesn't respond, and they get a default judgment for $8k. Unless she has some recoverable asset, all they have is a piece of paper that she can wipe out later if they aggressively pursue the judgment.

I have several clients with hundreds of thousands of dollars in judgments against them who live rich/comfortable lives. If you're not inclined to pay, there's a lot that can be done to frustrate creditors beyond going nuclear with a bankruptcy filing.

But if her financial situation does improve sometime in the relatively near future isn't it possible that her creditors can basically put her right back in her current situation with garnishments at which time she would then have to file for bankruptcy? Frankly it doesn't sound like it's going to get good enough in the next 5-10 years to be able to reasonably pay off these debts even if she does start making more money. Why not just get a clean slate right now, especially since she has help to navigate her through it, keep her on the right track and start building up her credit. It will definitely be a faster way for her to rebuild her credit imho.
 
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