BCLK OC i5-6400 @ 4.5Ghz, 4K gaming rig in progress.

[Torn Mind]

Not true at all. All browsers cache page elements to disk. Faster, more responsive disk, means faster, more responsive downloads and rendering.

Doesn't make a difference when I fire up the Private Window modes on FF or Chrome. In those cases, everything is downloaded and then rendered. There is no cache to take advatage of...yet. Only when I revisit a site does cache matter. The tabs themselves, when the session is young, is operating in RAM.

On my Speedstep disabled i7, even with two cores disabled, a script heavy site like Ebay renders with no hiccups, and given my slow 3.0 Mbps DSL connection, the images are the slow things to load. But once the images finished, the page is DONE loading. A far cry from the Turion single core at 1.6 Ghz on the laptop I found in the trash or the Atom netbook with an N270 .

All paired up with a 2 TB enterprise hard drive from WD, with random reads and writes around 1 megabyte.

If I go use Facebook's search, the little thing that pop up as I type is something that will always gobble up CPU time. It is here where CPU speed makes its mark in web browsing. I know what I'm in for if I go to NFL.com on a gimpy Atom compared to even a modest big core Celeron.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Yeah, in Private Browsing mode, they don't cache to disk. But you didn't say that.

In normal operation, every browser caches elements to disk.

 

[whm1974]

I've never claimed to be a PCMR / High-end gamer. And by crippled systems, are you referring to the inexpensive Facebook-type boxes I build for clients, or my own personal rigs with the overclocked Skylake dual-cores? I mostly web-browse, and as I showed in the other thread in CPUs & Overclocking, I wasn't missing out on anything, by buying dual-cores for Waterfox rather than quad-cores.

Edit: And I take offense at the "crippled" comment. Even the PCs I'm donating (for free, even!), I'm putting an SSD in. I don't build "crippled" PCs.

You were putting in 16GB SSDs! Which is barely enough for the OS, let alone any useful applications.

 

[VirtualLarry]

You were putting in 16GB SSDs! Which is barely enough for the OS, let alone any useful applications.

For donation rigs... and have you taken a look at the entry-level OEM PC market lately? There's plenty of "cloudbooks" and "chromebooks", not to mention, "budget Windows tablets", with only 16GB eMMC. With freaking Windows.

Linux takes less room, and nearly half of that SSD would have been free, had I elected to do manual partitioning during the install, and skip the swap partition.

Even with the 3.5GB swap partition, there was 4-5GB free for user data / applications. Which, while not great, isn't exactly unusable.

Even so, I decided to buy some 30GB brand-new Kingston SSDs, and I used those. Leaving nearly 20GB free for the user. (Or allowing the end-user to install Windows 10, if they so chose.)

These weren't high-end rigs, nor gaming machines. Not every PC is a PCMR-grade rig, nor does it have to be.

Feel free to spend your own money building machines to donate, and include as big an SSD as you feel necessary.

 

[Torn Mind]

Yeah, in Private Browsing mode, they don't cache to disk. But you didn't say that.

In normal operation, every browser caches elements to disk.

The cache mitigates the lag from downloading the stuff. But even on a 3.0Mbps connection, the lag is barely significant. Cache is not mitigating the delay the javascript allowing you to mouse over an election map or zoom in on an Ebay image.

Besides, if someone decides to nuke their recent history, the browser has to start from scratch anyway.

The cache benefits the user on the second or other subsequent visits to the site. For the first visit, it does not. I can have 40 chrome tabs open on 16 GBs of RAM and feel not even the slightest drag, all on a spinner with crappy random reads and write, because it doesn't do much reading and writing when the page file isn't being hammered. And with a spinning hard drive, I can hear when the hard drive is being accessed. My hard drive is not optimized for quiet operation either.

 

[XavierMace]

I admit, I don't like to pay over $100 for a CPU, and I tend to take a slightly minimalist approach to building systems, rather than "overkill". For example, some people here seem to think that you need to use a 6700K for a Facebook box. Nonsense. Sure, maybe it's more future-proof (Facebook 2020? LOL), but for today, it's an unnecessary expense.

And as I finally showed, objectively through a PeaceKeeper benchmark, these last year or two that I've been running overclocked dual-cores for Waterfox / Firefox, I haven't been missing out on any performance, unlike what everyone was telling me to buy a quad for web-browsing.

When I bought a quad Skylake, I thought that it was faster, subjectively, but that was deceiving, it really wasn't, when benchmarked.

Larry, I mean this in the nicest possible way but there's a difference between minimalist and cheap.

A minimalist would decide what he needs something to do and then buy the cheapest thing that accomplishes that goal well. You have a habit of buying the cheapest thing you can find, then try to find a way to make it accomplish your goal somehow. The statement of "I don't like to pay over $100 for a CPU" shows what I mean. You're prioritizing the dollar amount over the goal. If you recall from some of the other threads we both participate in, I've built one of those Gigabyte Brix boxes with the A8 and I've got a Cherry Trail tablet. I'm not against buying a cheap tool IF it will do the job I need it to. But you buy a knife because it was cheaper than a screwdriver, then try to find a way to screw things in with it.

For us fellow forum viewers, it's hard for us to keep track of which of your builds are for personal use or which are for "clients" especially since some purchases seem to start out as for personal use then transition to for clients when you don't like it. We just know we see a lot of threads of you talking about a "deal" you're looking at, we tell you don't do it. Then 2 weeks later we see a thread about that "deal" not running like you'd like. So we collectively lump these together in a bucket called "Larry's Purchases" (tm).

No, you don't need a 6700k for web browsing. But you've bought/built oodles of devices that crippled is a valid descriptor for. That 16Gb SSD is a perfect example of this. When you're having to jump through hoops just to get an OS to install, you bought/built a crippled system. Just because companies sell similar systems, doesn't mean it's not crippled. Buying a 16Gb SSD and trying to shoehorn SOME solution onto it instead of buying a 64Gb because it saved $20 is not minimalist, it's cheap.

You ran a single, outdated benchmark that favors Firefox and clockspeed. Try Sunspider or Octane and see if you still get the same results. I'm honestly curious. I might even play around a bit with some VM's and see how the results vary.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Basically, you're sort of right, but, in my defense, my "donation rigs", for which I purchased the 16GB SSDs for, to save on costs, were always intended to run Linux Mint or CloudReady, and not Windows.

And, technically, the 16GB SSDs DO suffice for that. Sure, you can't store TB worth of downloaded image files on it, but ... the box was just intended to web-browse. Not to "collect".

Likewise, I COULD have thrown only 2GB of RAM in there, in a single-stick, and neglected the dual-channel aspect of the FM1 APUs. But I tried with a single 8GB stick, and it didn't play back 1080P YouTube satisfactorily, so I put in 2x2GB DDR3-1600.

"Cheap" would have been going the waltchan route, and only putting in a single 2GB stick. So yes, the 16GB SSDs were a "cheap" solution, and I wasn't happy with that, so I went out and bought some 30GB SSDs, and am configuring the boxes with those SSDs. Just in case, the recipients want to install Windows 10. (Which the board/CPU(APU) supports out of the box.)

Plus, the 16GB SSDs were used, and couldn't be secure-erased, and their write performance was atrocious, slower than a HDD. So that was the final straw, not just their size. (They work fine for CloudReady, though.)

 

[whm1974]

Larry, most of your "clients" would probably be better served by a Chromebook:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...NodeId=1&N=100167750 600003943 4814 600004798
Under $200. Plus since they have card readers, they can add more storage.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I think I remember reading in another thread that Chromebook sales were way down. They're just too limiting, for most people. At least, even with a Linux box, you can still install programs, and even VirtualBox and a Windows VM if you need to run Windows programs.

 

[XavierMace]

"Cheap" would have been going the waltchan route, and only putting in a single 2GB stick. So yes, the 16GB SSDs were a "cheap" solution, and I wasn't happy with that, so I went out and bought some 30GB SSDs, and am configuring the boxes with those SSDs. Just in case, the recipients want to install Windows 10. (Which the board/CPU(APU) supports out of the box.)

It's not an either or scenario, you can both be cheap. Just because you can find somebody who's even cheaper doesn't mean you're not cheap. You're missing the general point I'm trying to make. The 16Gb SSD's were a cheap, bad purchase. That happens, I've made bad purchases too. Some really expensive ones at that.

But then you basically went and bought the next absolute cheapest replacement up. Between then 16Gb SSD's and the 30Gb SSD's, how much did you spend on SSD's? I get these are for donation rigs, but go with me for a minute here. 30Gb is not enough for an actual Windows install on a regular PC. You state these were never going to run Windows. I'd argue that was a bad choice, but that's a different discussion. All of my non-Windows devices have, at minimum, 15Gb of media on them. You can get an SP660 64Gb new for $35. Personally, that's the absolute smallest I'd go in any scenario, including a donation rig, regardless of OS. There's a variety of 128Gb SSD's at the $45 price point. There's a point where cheaper isn't actually cheaper. Technically you may have saved $20, but you've severely reduced the functionality. That's not really a bargain at that point.

Then this gets to the overall build itself. Donation systems for purely simple web browsing. As has been brought up repeatedly, this is what Chromebooks are for. You tried to make lemonade out of oranges because you bought a bag of oranges because they were cheap. Now you have a pile of oranges and nothing to do with them so you're trying to find things to make with oranges.

 

[XavierMace]

I think I remember reading in another thread that Chromebook sales were way down. They're just too limiting, for most people. At least, even with a Linux box, you can still install programs, and even VirtualBox and a Windows VM if you need to run Windows programs.

So's a Linux box with a 30Gb SSD. Even if you had the space, which you don't, I don't even want to think about how badly Windows would run as a VM in VirtualBox on an AM1.

 

[VirtualLarry]

30Gb is not enough for an actual Windows install on a regular PC.

Sure it is. I ran Win7 64-bit on a Core2Quad with 8GB RAM, on a 30GB SSD for several years, on two machines. So did a friend of mine. Granted, all of those machines had HDDs too, for bulk / media storage, but 30GB was certainly enough for the OS and swapfile.

And Win10 takes up less disk space than Win7 64-bit.

Sure, it may not be enough space for YOU, but technically-speaking, it's enough.

(I even did a test install of Win10 64-bit onto the 16GB SSD, and amazingly, it installed!)

So's a Linux box with a 30Gb SSD. Even if you had the space, which you don't, I don't even want to think about how badly Windows would run as a VM in VirtualBox on an AM1.

FM1, my friend, FM1. "Big-core", as opposed to "small-core". Basically Core2 IPC, with Haswell-quality IGP.

Edit: There's a certain irony, in arguing that a Linux box with only a 30GB SSD, is "too limiting", even though one can easily install an additional HDD into it, but yet at the same time, promoting a Chromebook, that often only has a 16GB eMMC in it, and no bay for an additional HDD for media.

 

[XavierMace]

Sure it is. I ran Win7 64-bit on a Core2Quad with 8GB RAM, on a 30GB SSD for several years, on two machines. So did a friend of mine. Granted, all of those machines had HDDs too, for bulk / media storage, but 30GB was certainly enough for the OS and swapfile.

And Win10 takes up less disk space than Win7 64-bit.

Sure, it may not be enough space for YOU, but technically-speaking, it's enough.

(I even did a test install of Win10 64-bit onto the 16GB SSD, and amazingly, it installed!)

FM1, my friend, FM1. "Big-core", as opposed to "small-core". Basically Core2 IPC, with Haswell-quality IGP.

If it was enough space, you wouldn't have needed additional drives. Just because you can fit the bare OS on the drive, does not mean it's a large enough drive. There's a reason computers aren't sold like that. Again, you're making up scenarios to try to fit your build.

AM1 was a typo, but please don't start again on trying to argue a new computer with Core2 IPC makes perfect sense. For a basic web browsing computer, I'd take an actual Haswell over something with a Haswell IGP and the IPC of a 15 year old processor.

 

[VirtualLarry]

If it was enough space, you wouldn't have needed additional drives.

Again, minimalist approach. Back when Core2 was still in fashion, SSDs were expensive, and their performance advantage is best utilized for the OS, app binaries, and the swapfile. It would be wasted on media files.

The fact that you can afford to waste SSD space (==$$$), on media files, is commendable. But it doesn't make you any less of a "Computer Snob".

It's like, I'm providing free Toyotas, and you all are saying, "Why not a Lexus? What if they want to drive the autobahn???".

Edit: Oh, and LLano's not 15 years old, that's quite the exaggeration. Those boards and APUs are fully-supported out of the box by Windows 10, including Secure Boot.

 

[VirtualLarry]

There's a reason computers aren't sold like that. Again, you're making up scenarios to try to fit your build.

Primarily, the reason that desktops aren't sold like that, is that it's just cheaper and looks like bigger numbers to the customer to throw in a big single HDD.

But I've seen plenty of laptops over the last two years, higher-end ones, with tiny M.2 or mSATA primary SSDs, and storage HDDs. It's not an unusual configuration, for rigs with cost considerations, that can hold two or more drives.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Did I mention, the cases that I used, come with card readers built-in? So they can store data on memory cards... just like one of those "newfangled" Chromebboks.

 

[XavierMace]

Edit: Oh, and LLano's not 15 years old, that's quite the exaggeration. Those boards and APUs are fully-supported out of the box by Windows 10, including Secure Boot.

I didn't say it was. I said it was the IPC of a 15 year old processor.

I'm not going to bother replying to the rest, you just keep telling yourself what you want to hear.

 

[whm1974]

I think I remember reading in another thread that Chromebook sales were way down. They're just too limiting, for most people. At least, even with a Linux box, you can still install programs, and even VirtualBox and a Windows VM if you need to run Windows programs.

For those who don't have a computer and who would greatly benefit from having internet access, a Chomebook is a great starter computer for those kind of people. Once those folks get better at using computers then they can always move on to something better later on.

 

[VirtualLarry]

but please don't start again on trying to argue a new computer with Core2 IPC makes perfect sense.

Why do you think these are "donation rigs", rather than for-pay builds? Sheesh.

Again, you're like "let them eat cake". These are perfectly serviceable PCs, with adequate RAM, and SSDs even. And the IPC of LLano is better than Core2, by a hair, and Core2 isn't 15 years old. Going back that far, would be Athlon XP.

Not to mention, the performance for web browsing, far exceeds contemporary machines, with the Cherry Trail N3050 / N3060. So, I guess I don't get the hate. These aren't bad machines. Maybe if I was charging more than $150 for them, they would be, but... I'm giving them away.

Sure, I'll give away 6700K rigs with 16GB DDR-3000 and 1TB Samsung 850 EVO SSDs.... if you're the one paying for them. LOL.

 

[XavierMace]

Sorry, 10 years.

You've got multiple people telling you what we think would be a better tool for the job but you refuse to listen, so I'm done.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I want to give blankets to the homeless, and you're telling me that's no good, I need to go out to a sporting goods store and buy arctic-grade sleeping bags and pass those out.

Sheesh.

Edit: I mean, I could scrap / e-waste all of my parts for these builds, go out and buy Cherry Trail "cloudbooks", with 2GB of RAM, even WORSE than 10-year-old IPC, and 32GB eMMC (slower than a SATA SSD), and pass those out. But what would I gain from that? What would the recipients gain from that? Ok, they could be mobile, and that could be valuable for some of them. But the goal here, is to do something useful with the parts that I already purchased, and try to benefit some people in the process. Is that so wrong? It seems like, in your world, that is.

Edit: And for the record, FM1 APUs have better IPC and two real cores, compared to FM2 / FM2+ APUs. They don't suck. Have you actually ever used one?

 

[VirtualLarry]

Here's another thought. Which "first PC" is more likely to make someone into an "enthusiast" in time? A Chromebook, or an upgradeable, expandable, desktop box running Linux? Then again, which is more likely to end up sitting in a corner, unused after a month? Tough to say.

Another strike against Chromebooks (I think), is something that someone mentioned in the original thread, that of being able to install "Office software", so that the recipient could train for a desk job. Now, I've not used a Chromebook, other than a few times at a store display. I have played with CloudReady. It seems that all you get, is a web browser. No DVD player, no media player, no Office-type software, none of that stuff. So, at least to my experiences, the Linux box is far superior. And if I had a source of *legit* Windows 10 keys, that were $50 or less each, I'd put Windows on the boxes. (Microsoft, please bring back the Family Packs of Windows. I bought a ton of them.)

 

[whm1974]

Here's another thought. Which "first PC" is more likely to make someone into an "enthusiast" in time? A Chromebook, or an upgradeable, expandable, desktop box running Linux? Then again, which is more likely to end up sitting in a corner, unused after a month? Tough to say.

Another strike against Chromebooks (I think), is something that someone mentioned in the original thread, that of being able to install "Office software", so that the recipient could train for a desk job. Now, I've not used a Chromebook, other than a few times at a store display. I have played with CloudReady. It seems that all you get, is a web browser. No DVD player, no media player, no Office-type software, none of that stuff. So, at least to my experiences, the Linux box is far superior. And if I had a source of *legit* Windows 10 keys, that were $50 or less each, I'd put Windows on the boxes. (Microsoft, please bring back the Family Packs of Windows. I bought a ton of them.)

Actually Larry you can install Linux on a Chromebook, plus ChromeOS also have offline apps that can be used without being online.

 

[Torn Mind]

What made me an "enthusiast" was changing heatsink compound off an absolutely clogged heatsink and subsequently having a curiosity about Pentium 4s and how to upgrade. If people don't have that inclination in the first place to tinker and do "research" in the first place, it will never happen. In my case, a matter of necessity was the first spark. Quite frankly, some people should not get into building PCs, because they will buy something that will blow up in their face. The PSU is a stumbling block, and it is not an insignificant problem given how Coolmax and Logisys have their PSUs still flying off the shelves.

In fact, I don't think it matters whether they become a computer enthusiast or not, just that for whatever production tasks they need to do during their state of impoverishment, that the machine does the job well and when they need it.

I've seen the stuff in thrift stores. It's used stuff all around. Expensive stuff that depreciated into the lower hundreds or even under. Used or new, the donated product no longer serves a purpose for its original owner but still has a potential life afterwards.

You give people Ipad 2s or scour craigslist and people's trash for stuff. Work and play are the two main things done on consumer boxes, and whatever device can cover the contingencies for both purposes is the best device for the job.



The phrase itself has become more legend than fact.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_them_eat_cake

Technically, Toyotas are not the cheapest, bottom of the barrel cars out there. A Toyota is expected to be a reliable econobox with less features than other cars with some handy, practical features. One thing computers do not have compared to cars the maintenance costs, which is where Toyota gets most of its good reputation. You do not maintain components to keep them alive. If they die, they die and they must be replaced. Typically, the bad eggs will malfunction right at the start and if everything is ok after the initial first few months of use, the computer will last for years.

You're making them because you pre-emptively bought the hardware and need some reason for it to stop collecting dust.