Be all end all IRS > SRA thread

[exdeath]

Do you have a Mustang or/and M3? Have you spent any appreciable time driving both?

OK then, paper spec trumpeting magazine parroting computer nerd verified.

 

[foghorn67]

No, he isn't. I've read the threads where he has been ganged up on by yourself and others who insist that SRA is absolutely unnoticeable on the street and that IRS is pointless.

I've read so much BS from the diehard pro SRA people it's amazing that it's taken this long to have a thread about it.


For a serious driver IRS is an understandable requirement. Some people are willing to cave, pay less for more power, and give up handling and that's fine - but don't twist that into SRA being just as good as IRS.

We are merely pointing out that a car isnt just a sum total of parts and acronyms.
This originated from the Mustang GT vs M3 thread.
People's feelings got hurt because a cheap, almost forgotten by its own maker, antique got too close.
And the only argument BMW fanboi's had was bu-bu-but live axle man.

While everyone knows that a live axle is an antique. It obviously didn't hurt lap times or the opinion of Probst's confidence on that ugly, derelict circuit.
Maybe you are from Michigan or something. Where potholes eat cars for lunch.
I just havent driven a GT with and without a Brembo/track pack that didn't exude confidence.
It's a car that enthusiasts love. It begs for more from the driver.
Room for improvement? Always.
But on the other corner, you had guys saying it was like the handling of a pickup truck because they both have live axles.


Few cars do that for me. Miatas, Boxsters, and in a silly way, the Cyclone.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Its never an issue of whether or not IRS is superior to SRA; it is.

Its more that the people who keep nitpicking the issue are just a bunch of computer nerds who drive FWD Hondas who are purely arguing paper specs on cars they wont ever buy and still wanting a particular car to have something for the sake of having it.

Its literally the equivalent of boasting a motherboard is superior because it has 8 SATA ports instead of "just 6" when you only have 2 SATA devices anyway. Still gotta have it because that 8 looks better on paper or in a sig than only 6. Thats all IRS, DOHC, leaf spring, and strut arguments on this forum ever are; computer nerds jerking off to paper spec sheets to cars they don't have.

There is a huge monumental difference between your SATA example and IRS vs SRA. 'You guys' continually compare SRA/IRS to things like HID or DOHC that truly are not noticeable..

Put someone in a car, ask them if it's DOHC and they won't be able to tell you.

Put someone in a car, have them accelerate through a turn on the street, and they will easily and immediately notice if it's SRA or IRS. They might not care (since they're not an enthusiast or they're a fanboy), but it is very noticeable.

That really is my issue... SRA is downplayed so much by a select 4-5 people, when it truly is a huge factor in the driving dynamics of a car on the street. It's not just an 'on paper' thing at all.

 

[Throckmorton]

Do you have a Mustang or/and M3? Have you spent any appreciable time driving both?

OK then, paper spec trumpeting magazine parroting computer nerd verified.

No, and I haven't spent an appreciable time driving any of the front wheel drive "sport coupes" so does that mean I can't recognize that their platforms are inferior to RWD ones?

Go to a "tuner" forum and people will swear up and down that a "properly set up" FWD car is just as good as RWD. Sound familiar?

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Do you have a Mustang or/and M3? Have you spent any appreciable time driving both?

OK then, paper spec trumpeting magazine parroting computer nerd verified.

Without delving into the details of my history, I have owned and tracked many performance cars with SRA through the years, and have put 100's of spiritedly driven miles on a current gen mustang GT. I currently own a z4 m coupe.

I definitely am acutely aware of what I'm talking about, and it's not something that's 'just on paper'.

 

[exdeath]

That's ridiculous. This is a car forum and people on here are enthusiasts.

I've never even owned a FWD vehicle. All my vehicles have either been RWD sports cars or offroaders.

e-enthusiast wanabes on the internet or wrench turning grease covered enthusiasts in the real wolrd? Its the latter who are always spelling out that there is more to how a car performs than high tech acronyms on paper, and spelling out the justifications for why a SRA is a sound engineering decision. Nobody has outright claimed SRA is mechanically superior.

Real gearheads don't really care even if they have a preference, they recognize the tradeoffs and understand the engineering choices that were made.

On the other hand, none of the people here who constantly make a fuss about the Mustang's solid axle have ever had a build thread or wrenching thread or driving event experience thread of their own in the history of ATG.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

We are merely pointing out that a car isnt just a sum total of parts and acronyms.
This originated from the Mustang GT vs M3 thread.
People's feelings got hurt because a cheap, almost forgotten by its own maker, antique got too close.
And the only argument BMW fanboi's had was bu-bu-but live axle man.

While everyone knows that a live axle is an antique. It obviously didn't hurt lap times or the opinion of Probst's confidence on that ugly, derelict circuit.
Maybe you are from Michigan or something. Where potholes eat cars for lunch.
I just havent driven a GT with and without a Brembo/track pack that didn't exude confidence.
It's a car that enthusiasts love. It begs for more from the driver.
Room for improvement? Always.
But on the other corner, you had guys saying it was like the handling of a pickup truck because they both have live axles.


Few cars do that for me. Miatas, Boxsters, and in a silly way, the Cyclone.

This argument with the same pro-SRA people has gone on for a long time now, at least a few years on this forum.

You are one of the ones who were ganging up on anybody who pointed out the brutal truth about SRA and refused (at least until very recently) to acknowledge that it's an inferior design.

At least you guys are now admitting that from a technical perspective it's inferior. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[foghorn67]

No, and I haven't spent an appreciable time driving any of the front wheel drive "sport coupes" so does that mean I can't recognize that their platforms are inferior to RWD ones?

Go to a "tuner" forum and people will swear up and down that a "properly set up" FWD car is just as good as RWD. Sound familiar?

That's not what he asked. Which one of those cars have you driven? Perhaps more than a couple blocks.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

e-enthusiast wanabes on the internet or wrench turning grease covered enthusiasts in the real wolrd? Its the latter who are always spelling out that there is more to how a car performs than high tech acronyms on paper, and spelling out the justifications for why a SRA is a sound engineering decision. Nobody has outright claimed SRA is mechanically superior.

Of all people, I'm surprised you are on ATG calling people out as wannabes.

We have a lot of knowledge on here, you're one of the more knowledgeable; I'm surprised you're being so insistent that IRS makes no difference in real-world driving.

 

[foghorn67]

This argument with the same pro-SRA people has gone on for a long time now, at least a few years on this forum.

You are one of the ones who were ganging up on anybody who pointed out the brutal truth about SRA and refused (at least until very recently) to acknowledge that it's an inferior design.

At least you guys are now admitting that from a technical perspective it's inferior. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

You are looking for an argument that never existed. Wait. You won argument that never existed.
You must be the guy hat logs OT by problems you create. Congrats!

 

[SpatiallyAware]

You are looking for an argument that never existed. Wait. You won argument that never existed.
You must be the guy hat logs OT by problems you create. Congrats!

Ah we still have people insisting that IRS makes no difference in the real world, comparing it to HID and DOHC.

...and this is actually one of the tamer discussions about this topic.

 

[foghorn67]

Ah we still have people insisting that IRS makes no difference in the real world, comparing it to HID and DOHC.

...and this is actually one of the tamer discussions about this topic.

I think you're definition of the real world has a title of "pedigree".
Edit. "your". Effin iPhone autocorrect.

 

[Throckmorton]

Foghorn, send me $75 and I'll rent a Mustang for a day and flog it

 

[exdeath]

Of all people, I'm surprised you are on ATG calling people out as wannabes.

We have a lot of knowledge on here, you're one of the more knowledgeable; I'm surprised you're being so insistent that IRS makes no difference in real-world driving.

I've never insisted anything about the technical inferiority or superiority of IRS. My car is IRS and I prefer it that way and have gone through excessive expense and efforts to make that IRS perfect where most take the cheap and easy way out with a solid axle swap.

But despite that, you've never seen me unconditionally condemn a car because it has SRA.

 

[foghorn67]

Foghorn, send me $75 and I'll rent a Mustang for a day and flog it

Do it yourself. I bet it will make you smile with delight.

 

[Throckmorton]

Do it yourself. I bet it will make you smile with delight.

I would but I can't afford it

 

[foghorn67]

I would but I can't afford it

Are you saving up for a car? Don't you own a miata? Or did?
What car is beckoning throck at the moment?

 

[exdeath]

This has never been a issue of IRS being superior. Nobody has ever said otherwise.

Its more that SRA vs IRS is just another computer nerd argument on the internet arguing ten thousandths in theoritical performance that is mostly irrelevant in the applications in question.

Its very similar to the pushrod vs DOHC argument. Its just stigma and epeening mostly. Put two engines with the same torque, power, RPM, and MPG side by side and the computer nerd wanna be car enthusiasts and "tech snobs" will still knee jerk identify and label the push rod engine as "old, low tech, ancient," etc.

Much of the hatred for struts and solid axles shares the same vein of engineering ignorance and tech snobbery rather than any real experience or need. Most people only want certain things on their car because of what they perceive as not wanting to be out dated or low tech compared to their neighbors, not because it would ever matter to them personally.

Engineering isn't about the most theoretical and mathematically perfect technology for tech snobs to parade in their driveway , its about creating a specific product at a specific durability and price for a specific set of purposes that people will buy. If you meet the project goals with X, you don't change it and throw in Z just for the sake of it.

 

[Throckmorton]

Are you saving up for a car? Don't you own a miata? Or did?
What car is beckoning throck at the moment?

No, I had a Miata, now I have a Cherokee. If I get a decent job I'm planning to buy a new car this time-- either a Mustang V6 or Camaro V6.

 

[power_hour]

Actually car companies like Hyundai are cutting corners and removing IRS. The new Elantra (not the Touring model) and the Veloster (including the turbo) both are using some kind of solid beam setup instead of IRS.

So lets not get stuck on the Stang...there are others lurking out there too! ;-)

 

[Arkaign]

This has never been a issue of IRS being superior. Nobody has ever said otherwise.

Its more that SRA vs IRS is just another computer nerd argument on the internet arguing ten thousandths in theoritical performance that is mostly irrelevant in the applications in question.

Its very similar to the pushrod vs DOHC argument. Its just stigma and epeening mostly. Put two engines with the same torque, power, RPM, and MPG side by side and the computer nerd wanna be car enthusiasts and "tech snobs" will still knee jerk identify and label the push rod engine as "old, low tech, ancient," etc.

Much of the hatred for struts and solid axles shares the same vein of engineering ignorance and tech snobbery rather than any real experience or need. Most people only want certain things on their car because of what they perceive as not wanting to be out dated or low tech compared to their neighbors, not because it would ever matter to them personally.

Engineering isn't about the most theoretical and mathematically perfect technology for tech snobs to parade in their driveway , its about creating a specific product at a specific durability and price for a specific set of purposes that people will buy. If you meet the project goals with X, you don't change it and throw in Z just for the sake of it.

This x1000000. I recently rode, part terrified, and part exhilerated, as one of my less sane friends drove a '11 GT right behind a Cayman S on some wicked curvy back roads. The car behaved wonderfully, and I can't really see what the big fuss is about either way. It wasn't even the smoothest of roads.

Well tuned IRS or well tuned SRA, doesn't make much of a difference to me. It's not anything in the same universe as FWD vs RWD, that's just ludicrous.

 

[Arkaign]

Actually car companies like Hyundai are cutting corners and removing IRS. The new Elantra (not the Touring model) and the Veloster (including the turbo) both are using some kind of solid beam setup instead of IRS.

So lets not get stuck on the Stang...there are others lurking out there too! ;-)

Rear Torsion Beam, yes tons of makers are starting to do this. IIRC the Sentra went to this a few years back and everyone noticed that it made the car "handle on it's door handles", lol. Sad, considering that Sentra SE-R and so on used to be pretty fun little econoboxes to mess about in.

 

[exdeath]

My 95 Camry has a IRS. I smoke '12 Mustang GTs in the twisties all the time because of it.







:awe:

 

[Arkaign]

My 95 Camry has a IRS. I smoke '12 Mustang GTs in the twisties all the time because of it.







:awe:

lawl! Awesome

 

[Sulaco]

Edit: Nm