Be all end all IRS > SRA thread

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,830
3
0
Rear Torsion Beam, yes tons of makers are starting to do this. IIRC the Sentra went to this a few years back and everyone noticed that it made the car "handle on it's door handles", lol. Sad, considering that Sentra SE-R and so on used to be pretty fun little econoboxes to mess about in.

There are two kinds of torsion beams.

One really is a solid axle, but with the links welded to the beam. That way it acts kind of like an antiroll bar, twisting when the car leans or when only one tire hits a bump. The Infiniti has that setup but with a Watts link to keep it centered http://www.se-r.net/about/g20/scc/oct98/tb.html
Edit: Oops, it has something called a Scott-Russel link, not a Watts.

The other kind is two independent trailing arms linked by a torsion bar acts as an antiroll bar. I don't see anything wrong with this one. Obviously it's not as good as multilink but it's still independent and compact which is good for FWD economy cars.
 
Last edited:

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
Put someone in a car, have them accelerate through a turn on the street, and they will easily and immediately notice if it's SRA or IRS. They might not care (since they're not an enthusiast or they're a fanboy), but it is very noticeable.

I drove an '06 Mustang GT for a year. The live axle was absolutely not "very noticeable."

Yes, there were certain corners where it was noticeable to someone who knew what to look for, but 95% of the time you just can't push the car hard enough on public roads to trip it up, and even when you do it's minor skittishness. If you're driving at 9/10ths on a public road, you're an idiot. And if you're doing that on a track, the surface is going to be smooth enough to where it's just not a big deal.

As far as the average driver ever being able to notice a difference, you're VASTLY over-estimating the amount of attention that the average driver pays to his or her car. Case in point, I borrowed a buddy's car a while back when my Volvo was laid up from damage caused by a mouse (mouse nest + exhaust manifold = minor engine fire + swearing). On any transition from acceleration to deceleration (or vice versa) and sometimes randomly mid-corner, the steering would "jump" 5-10 degrees causing the car to jump to the right or left. Extremely obvious and very frightening. When I told my friend about it, they said they'd never noticed it. They further claimed not to notice it when they drove the car later on. I badgered them into having a shop at least look at the car and it turned out that one of the mounting bolts for the passenger side front suspension had fallen out, allowing the entire strut assembly to shift depending on how it was loading up. (To be clear, this was not a "beater" car that I borrowed; this was a white-collar professional's everyday car owned by a person who swore up and down that they took good care of their things.)

If the average driver can't even tell when a bolt has come off their suspension, they aren't going to notice a live axle.

Bottom line: No-one's arguing that a live axle is "better." But it's an absolute fantasy to think that the average driver has enough wherewithal to notice the difference in everyday street driving. Even enthusiasts who will, however infrequently, notice the difference aren't going to (or, at least, oughtn't) be pushing hard enough on public roadways for the difference to be material. Compromises have to be made and the IRS crowd seems to completely ignore the fact that something has to give if you want to be able to buy a 420-horsepower car for $30,000.

ZV
 
Last edited:

ProchargeMe

Senior member
Jun 2, 2012
679
0
0
Everyone's talking about the sra only perorming well on a race track. Isn't the racetrack the only place your performance really matters?
 

heymrdj

Diamond Member
May 28, 2007
3,999
63
91
Everyone's talking about the sra only perorming well on a race track. Isn't the racetrack the only place your performance really matters?

That's pretty much the crux of the argument. Alot of people are trying to fault the mustang because it can't whip rough corners. Legally, though, there's no street where you can do this, and Ford has no responsibility to make anyone capable of doing so. So why waste the money? As exdeath and ZV have said (and many of the arguers seem to have forgotten) is that the Mustang is a car for a specific purpose at a specific price. 99% that by the Mustang are not flogging it, pissing people off, and causing accidents. They are racing red lights and driving it because it looks friggin cool. In this crappy economy, the mustangs target audience (what you think it would be) can't even afford the car. The best ones, like the GT's and BOSS's i see running around are all driven by 50+ year old bald guys (or 40+ year old women with huge plastic sunglasses) doing less over the speed limit than I do in my Ranger.

It's built pretty much the same way you could say the F-150 is built. Is it a truck that can work? Yes. But you don't really want to have the 10,000 pounds loaded on it. The frame is too light, the brakes too small, and the control too shoddy. But people will argue till they are blue in the face that it could do that load every day. Well it can't, it's meant to look pretty and flex its muscle every once in awhile, which is a huge majority of the non-fleet F-150 purchases in the US. Could they make the F-150 better? Hell yeah. But then it would look, drive, and cost like an F-250. Could they make the Mustang way better? Hell yeah. Then it would look, drive, and cost like the Ford GT.

I love the mustang for what it is, a cheap, powerful, beautiful car that you can sling around a bit on public roadways and let it out on tracks on the weekend. You can still put winter tires on it and not end up in a ditch. It's an amazing car for the price.
 
Sep 7, 2009
12,960
3
0
I drove an '06 Mustang GT for a year. The live axle was absolutely not "very noticeable."

Yes, there were certain corners where it was noticeable to someone who knew what to look for, but 95% of the time you just can't push the car hard enough on public roads to trip it up, and even when you do it's minor skittishness. If you're driving at 9/10ths on a public road, you're an idiot. And if you're doing that on a track, the surface is going to be smooth enough to where it's just not a big deal.

As far as the average driver ever being able to notice a difference, you're VASTLY over-estimating the amount of attention that the average driver pays to his or her car. Case in point, I borrowed a buddy's car a while back when my Volvo was laid up from damage caused by a mouse (mouse nest + exhaust manifold = minor engine fire + swearing). On any transition from acceleration to deceleration (or vice versa) and sometimes randomly mid-corner, the steering would "jump" 5-10 degrees causing the car to jump to the right or left. Extremely obvious and very frightening. When I told my friend about it, they said they'd never noticed it. They further claimed not to notice it when they drove the car later on. I badgered them into having a shop at least look at the car and it turned out that one of the mounting bolts for the passenger side front suspension had fallen out, allowing the entire strut assembly to shift depending on how it was loading up. (To be clear, this was not a "beater" car that I borrowed; this was a white-collar professional's everyday car owned by a person who swore up and down that they took good care of their things.)

If the average driver can't even tell when a bolt has come off their suspension, they aren't going to notice a live axle.

Bottom line: No-one's arguing that a live axle is "better." But it's an absolute fantasy to think that the average driver has enough wherewithal to notice the difference in everyday street driving. Even enthusiasts who will, however infrequently, notice the difference aren't going to (or, at least, oughtn't) be pushing hard enough on public roadways for the difference to be material. Compromises have to be made and the IRS crowd seems to completely ignore the fact that something has to give if you want to be able to buy a 420-horsepower car for $30,000.

ZV


ZV; We have had numerous heated discussions in the past few years, most of which involved throck, where the same 4-5 members flat out insisted that there is NO technical improvement with IRS whatsoever, and that ford had 'worked out' every single problem with SRA. I don't have the time to find it at the moment, but I specifically remember one thread where throck was literally the only person saying IRS is technically superior, and at least 4 members had lengthy posts on how Ford spent enough time and money to work out EVERY technical deficiency of a SRA. Those types of discussions are what prompted this thread.

Now we have some of the same people finally admitting that yes there's a difference, but it is unnoticeable (false). We have others (such as yourself) who have fully conceded that there's a difference, and it is noticeable, but now it's only to enthusiast drivers pushing the limits of their car on the street.

I have not owned a mustang specifically, but I have had quite a few tuned SRA performance vehicles and I've put at least 500++ miles on a mustang GT (~'10) in the mountains and have been a passenger for another 1000 or so.

It is absolutely false that these differences are rarely noticeable. You do not have to be driving at 9/10ths or even 5/10ths to see them come up. You do not have to be in the mountains or a track to feel and notice them. Hell, you don't even have to be in the car to notice it.

It's something that requires only a cambered uphill turn. You can be going 5/10ths, powering through the corner (nowhere near breaking traction or inducing TC), and merely hit a small bump to drastically upset the rear end. Will you instaflip into a ditch? Of course not. But it is extremely noticable, both by a driver and passenger, and anyone behind you if they are paying any attention at all. If you're driving at 5/10ths then no big deal, the rear end shakes for a few seconds until it finds a flat section of road. If you're (albeit stupidly) driving at 9/10ths then you just might end up in a ditch whereas IRS would've kept you on the road.

No one has said it's dangerous, and certainly every IRS supporter seems to have no problem acknowledging that SRA is there to fit a certain budget. The historical problem with the pro-SRA people is the blind defense of the technology, cost aside. We have had at least 5 mustang threads derailed by this exact conversation, and I have to say it's refreshing that the 'regulars' are at least conceding that there is a technical improvement with IRS.
 

heymrdj

Diamond Member
May 28, 2007
3,999
63
91
ZV; We have had numerous heated discussions in the past few years, most of which involved throck, where the same 4-5 members flat out insisted that there is NO technical improvement with IRS whatsoever, and that ford had 'worked out' every single problem with SRA. I don't have the time to find it at the moment, but I specifically remember one thread where throck was literally the only person saying IRS is technically superior, and at least 4 members had lengthy posts on how Ford spent enough time and money to work out EVERY technical deficiency of a SRA. Those types of discussions are what prompted this thread.

Now we have some of the same people finally admitting that yes there's a difference, but it is unnoticeable (false). We have others (such as yourself) who have fully conceded that there's a difference, and it is noticeable, but now it's only to enthusiast drivers pushing the limits of their car on the street.

I have not owned a mustang specifically, but I have had quite a few tuned SRA performance vehicles and I've put at least 500++ miles on a mustang GT (~'10) in the mountains and have been a passenger for another 1000 or so.

It is absolutely false that these differences are rarely noticeable. You do not have to be driving at 9/10ths or even 5/10ths to see them come up. You do not have to be in the mountains or a track to feel and notice them. Hell, you don't even have to be in the car to notice it.

It's something that requires only a cambered uphill turn. You can be going 5/10ths, powering through the corner (nowhere near breaking traction or inducing TC), and merely hit a small bump to drastically upset the rear end. Will you instaflip into a ditch? Of course not. But it is extremely noticable, both by a driver and passenger, and anyone behind you if they are paying any attention at all. If you're driving at 5/10ths then no big deal, the rear end shakes for a few seconds until it finds a flat section of road. If you're (albeit stupidly) driving at 9/10ths then you just might end up in a ditch whereas IRS would've kept you on the road.

No one has said it's dangerous, and certainly every IRS supporter seems to have no problem acknowledging that SRA is there to fit a certain budget. The historical problem with the pro-SRA people is the blind defense of the technology, cost aside. We have had at least 5 mustang threads derailed by this exact conversation, and I have to say it's refreshing that the 'regulars' are at least conceding that there is a technical improvement with IRS.

If I can take a light reared ranger up an embankment at power at 57 miles an hour, hit a pot hole so sharp it popped the tire, and still control the jacking back end to safely pull over to the side of the road, I think people can handle the back end of mustang under acceleration in normal legal circumstances. Again, drive within what the car is. It's not a viper, it's not a high-end vet, it doesn't cost 75-125,000$. It's an affordable, powerful car. The base starting at 22k puts it in the hands of alot of people. If the car goes to starting at 30k because of all these "upgrades" then Ford will lose sales. Again Ford's sales are every day drivers, not a few enthusiasts on a forum cramming spec sheets.

I always go back to the F-150. We've lost the ability to have an affordable utility truck. The F-150 is way too expensive now for the weekend truck crowd, and it's driven used pickup sales way up. The other companies have followed suit. 24 grand for a small V6 with a short bed and no tow package? 28k just to get an 8' bed model with a supercab (which also forces you to the 5.0L V8). So just to get a basic pickup with some in cab space and enough bed space for the average construction material length, costs 28k, for a friggin XL!. This is what happens when car companies are forced to put in more safety and more refinements to a appease the "go bigger" or "go better" croud. It always has to be bigger and better the next year.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
126
IIRC, the 2010 and later SRA in the Mustang is vastly improved. So ZV's comment isn't even including the improvements.

I recall quoting several reviewers marveling at the 2010 and later SRA in the Mustang in other threads.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
126
In this company, the steering trumps—it’s fast, direct, and, though still a bit isolated, far more naturally weighted than that of the other two. Body control with the Track pack is astounding. It doesn’t pogo, doesn’t shimmy, doesn’t slump to the outside and clop its way through a corner. The ride may be firm, but nothing throws it off the slot-like path you cut through turns. And somehow that live axle deals with pitching and pocked pavement with much of the sure-footed poise of an independent setup. A Track-pack Mustang used only at the drag strip is a Mustang wasted.

Comment like that...
 

herm0016

Diamond Member
Feb 26, 2005
8,421
1,049
126
ill take a nice short chain over 4 feet of bike chain or a belt any day.

sra/irs, push rod/ over head cam etc....

omg!!! corvettes have a leaf spring!!!! how crude and ancient.. it must handle like a civic!

all if it is about engineering, cost, compromise.

there is nothing wrong with either system. put a Detroit Locker in your M3 and see how long your half shafts last. I would guess they would not last one launch. Do the same in an the mustang and i think you would have little trouble.

IRS will handle better in lots of situations. Not everyone has a need for it. not everyone has the need to have the latest and greatest processor or gfx card in much the same way.

Its people that think anyone who does not bow down to there opinion on such matters such as this that really grind my gears.

Own and enjoy what you want. Don't look down on others that own and enjoy other things.

and people with hid retrofits can go to hell with the trucks that leave clouds of black smoke at every intersection.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,830
3
0
If I can take a light reared ranger up an embankment at power at 57 miles an hour, hit a pot hole so sharp it popped the tire, and still control the jacking back end to safely pull over to the side of the road, I think people can handle the back end of mustang under acceleration in normal legal circumstances. Again, drive within what the car is. It's not a viper, it's not a high-end vet, it doesn't cost 75-125,000$. It's an affordable, powerful car. The base starting at 22k puts it in the hands of alot of people. If the car goes to starting at 30k because of all these "upgrades" then Ford will lose sales. Again Ford's sales are every day drivers, not a few enthusiasts on a forum cramming spec sheets.

I always go back to the F-150. We've lost the ability to have an affordable utility truck. The F-150 is way too expensive now for the weekend truck crowd, and it's driven used pickup sales way up. The other companies have followed suit. 24 grand for a small V6 with a short bed and no tow package? 28k just to get an 8' bed model with a supercab (which also forces you to the 5.0L V8). So just to get a basic pickup with some in cab space and enough bed space for the average construction material length, costs 28k, for a friggin XL!. This is what happens when car companies are forced to put in more safety and more refinements to a appease the "go bigger" or "go better" croud. It always has to be bigger and better the next year.

The Camaro costs about the same as the Mustang even though it has IRS and is made of a lot more metal.

I posted an article a year or two ago about how the Mustang got the solid axle to save Ford $100 per vehicle. Not $10000 or even $1000! This was after they had already designed and tested an IRS.

The Mustang doesn't have a simple leaf sprung solid axle. It's a very complex setup. I think there are 5 links, possibly 6.
 
Last edited:

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
IRS vs solid axle doesn't even matter.

Because it never EVER fails that every time I'm in the mood for some spirited twisty lateral G driving on the alternate route home, I always get 1/4 of the way through before I'm stuck behind a god damned mini van going 15 under at 11pm.

My IRS doesn't do squat to alleviate that problem.
 

SSSnail

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
17,461
82
86
Damn exdeath, you sound like an insufferable bitch who's been wronged too many times; would hate to see you on your period.
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,513
221
106
IRS vs solid axle doesn't even matter.

Because it never EVER fails that every time I'm in the mood for some spirited twisty lateral G driving on the alternate route home, I always get 1/4 of the way through before I'm stuck behind a god damned mini van going 15 under at 11pm.

My IRS doesn't do squat to alleviate that problem.

Or stopping in the middle of the road for no apparent reason.....
 

melchoir

Senior member
Nov 3, 2002
761
1
0
I can speak from experience having owned a 2005 GTO (IRS) and now a blown 2011 Mustang GT (SRA).

The Mustang definitely handles better than the GTO did.

Since I prefer the occasional straight line acceleration on the street (or track) vs trying to kill myself sliding around a street corner, I'm most pleased by a rear end that isn't going to obliterate itself under pressure.

Typically SRA is more cost effective for achieving my goals and in the current iteration I'm very happy with it's cornering and handling performance.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
126
The Camaro costs about the same as the Mustang even though it has IRS and is made of a lot more metal.

I posted an article a year or two ago about how the Mustang got the solid axle to save Ford $100 per vehicle. Not $10000 or even $1000! This was after they had already designed and tested an IRS.

The Mustang doesn't have a simple leaf sprung solid axle. It's a very complex setup. I think there are 5 links, possibly 6.

10,427 mustangs sold in May 2012.

That's $1,042,700.00 saved...
 

JackBurton

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
15,993
14
81
I can speak from experience having owned a 2005 GTO (IRS) and now a blown 2011 Mustang GT (SRA).

The Mustang definitely handles better than the GTO did.

Since I prefer the occasional straight line acceleration on the street (or track) vs trying to kill myself sliding around a street corner, I'm most pleased by a rear end that isn't going to obliterate itself under pressure.

Typically SRA is more cost effective for achieving my goals and in the current iteration I'm very happy with it's cornering and handling performance.

Just curious, but what mods have you done on your Mustang?
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
I can speak from experience having owned a 2005 GTO (IRS) and now a blown 2011 Mustang GT (SRA).

The Mustang definitely handles better than the GTO did.

Since I prefer the occasional straight line acceleration on the street (or track) vs trying to kill myself sliding around a street corner, I'm most pleased by a rear end that isn't going to obliterate itself under pressure.

Typically SRA is more cost effective for achieving my goals and in the current iteration I'm very happy with it's cornering and handling performance.

Doesn't matter what your experience is or what your needs are or what you are happy with. Magazines and physics say IRS is superior blah blah blah blah blah
 
Sep 7, 2009
12,960
3
0
Doesn't matter what your experience is or what your needs are or what you are happy with. Magazines and physics say IRS is superior blah blah blah blah blah


Stupid physics, allowing IRS to keep both wheels tightly on the ground. I hate when physics shows up to ruin people's illogical rants.
 
Sep 7, 2009
12,960
3
0
I can speak from experience having owned a 2005 GTO (IRS) and now a blown 2011 Mustang GT (SRA).

The Mustang definitely handles better than the GTO did.

Since I prefer the occasional straight line acceleration on the street (or track) vs trying to kill myself sliding around a street corner, I'm most pleased by a rear end that isn't going to obliterate itself under pressure.

Typically SRA is more cost effective for achieving my goals and in the current iteration I'm very happy with it's cornering and handling performance.


As has been said throughout the thread, this discussion relates to a properly setup IRS vs properly setup SRA. Of course there are outliers on both sides - you can make a SRA handle well, just not as well as a properly setup IRS.

Wonder why ford went to IRS on the newest mustangs...?
 

melchoir

Senior member
Nov 3, 2002
761
1
0
Just curious, but what mods have you done on your Mustang?

Roush 2.3 TVS blower kit, 82mm pulley, custom tune and a pair of drag radials.
It was enough to go 10s in the 1/4 with everything else being stock. Still have full OEM exhaust including cats. Stock airbox, stock paper airfilter, etc etc etc.


SpatiallyAware said:
As has been said throughout the thread, this discussion relates to a properly setup IRS vs properly setup SRA. Of course there are outliers on both sides - you can make a SRA handle well, just not as well as a properly setup IRS.

Wonder why ford went to IRS on the newest mustangs...?

I don't know in what magical universe you're talking about a "properly setup" suspension, because I'm comparing two vehicles with completely stock suspension from the factory. If the OEM can't make IRS better than SRA in stock vs stock, then I'm certainly not wasting my money to try and make the inferior out of the box system comparable to the other guy's. (GTO vs 5.0)

As for Ford going IRS in the future, I can't speak to that. I know there is no currently available Mustang able to be ordered with IRS, so I'll find out why they went IRS once they actually go IRS.

From the past I can tell you that the vast majority of IRS Cobra owners that wanted to reliably go fast in the same manor that I described have abandoned their IRS setups for SRA.
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |