Beating your children: Whats so wrong?

[Nebbers]

Beating your children teaches them one thing: that if you're bigger than the person that you're in a conflict with, violence will solve the problem for you.

Imparting a good understanding of life and the world is far more beneficial than traumatizing them into listening to you, which is exactly what beating does.

Kids who get beat don't have any respect for their parents, they have FEAR of their parents. It creates people that behave only because they are afraid of what may happen if they don't behave, rather than behaving because they have been taught the merits of treating other people well.

 

[dabuddha]

Beating your children teaches them one thing: that if you're bigger than the person that you're in a conflict with, violence will solve the problem for you.

Parents that are worth a damn have no need or use for physical discipline, period. Imparting a good understanding of life and the world is far more beneficial than traumatizing them into listening to you, which is exactly what beating does.

Kids who get beat don't have any respect for their parents, they have FEAR of their parents. It creates people that behave only because they are afraid of what may happen if they don't behave, rather than behaving because they have been taught the merits of treating other people well.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that point because hell I'm living proof that it's not true (as are many others in this thread). Sure, the thought that I was going to get a spanking would make me scared at the time. But I did not FEAR my parents. I knew that I'd be punished only if I misbehaved or did something wrong, not just willy nilly.

 

[Nebbers]

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that point because hell I'm living proof that it's not true (as are many others in this thread). Sure, the thought that I was going to get a spanking would make me scared at the time. But I did not FEAR my parents. I knew that I'd be punished only if I misbehaved or did something wrong, not just willy nilly.

Sorry, I had to edit part of that out after the fact.

'Spanking' is different than 'beating', and I didn't differentiate between the two.

 

[Mandres]

I would never hit my kid for misbehaving or making bad grades. That said, I won't tolerate disrespect from him.

In my house, I'm the boss. And if he challenges my authority, or his mother's, I'll get into his face and make sure he knows I take it seriously. I wouldn't hesitate to spank him in that situation, but honestly I've never had to.

 

[dabuddha]

I would never hit my kid for misbehaving or making bad grades. That said, I won't tolerate disrespect from him.

In my house, I'm the boss. And if he challenges my authority, or his mother's, I'll get into his face and make sure he knows I take it seriously. I wouldn't hesitate to spank him in that situation, but honestly I've never had to.

And I think that's what a lot of the naysayers are getting confused about. They think we just walk around the house smacking the crap out of our kids just for fun or to get our rocks off.

they probably envision this:

 

[sourceninja]

Beating your children teaches them one thing: that if you're bigger than the person that you're in a conflict with, violence will solve the problem for you.

Imparting a good understanding of life and the world is far more beneficial than traumatizing them into listening to you, which is exactly what beating does.

Kids who get beat don't have any respect for their parents, they have FEAR of their parents. It creates people that behave only because they are afraid of what may happen if they don't behave, rather than behaving because they have been taught the merits of treating other people well.

How do we solve problems between adults. We threaten their physical well being.

Example: You are my subordinate and I tell you to complete a job. You fail to complete this job because you refuse to follow my direction. First I talk to you and tell you "Billy, didn't I say do job X?", next I threaten you "Billy, if you don't do job X I'm going to have to take away your job". Finally I punish you by harming your ability (firing).

Our court system works the same way. First we tell you not to do something politely (a law). Next we give you a time out (arrest/jail). Finally we KILL you or lock you up for life with violent criminals who have nothing to lose (same thing).

The point is, there has to be some kind of dreaded fear inducing consequence for behavior modification. Hell, isn't this the whole point of religion?? God threatens to beat you forever in a pit of fire if you don't follow his house rules...

 

[Jaskalas]

My parents only hit me a few times. It did nothing but make me want to rebel against them out of anger.

My parents normally did a good job of talking to me and explaining why what I did was wrong. The shame of understanding my wrongdoing was enough punishment for me.

Why did you care or adopt their notion of "wrong"? Maybe you liked what you were doing. Don't see a reason for you to stop.

 

[SMOGZINN]

How do we solve problems between adults. We threaten their physical well being.

No, we use incentives and positive reinforcement.

Example: You are my subordinate and I tell you to complete a job. You fail to complete this job because you refuse to follow my direction. First I talk to you and tell you "Billy, didn't I say do job X?", next I threaten you "Billy, if you don't do job X I'm going to have to take away your job". Finally I punish you by harming your ability (firing).

The job is not the natural behavior state. You don't go to your job in the hopes that you don't get fired, you go to your job for the incentive of getting paid. The 'punishment' here is simply the removal of the incentive.

Our court system works the same way. First we tell you not to do something politely (a law). Next we give you a time out (arrest/jail). Finally we KILL you or lock you up for life with violent criminals who have nothing to lose (same thing).

Our court system does work this way, which is why recidivism is so high. This sort of punishment is simply not a very effective teaching tool for changing behavior, and we have known this since the 1940's when it was discovered that positive punishment did not actually decrease negative behaviors but only caused the subjects to put more effort into hiding them.
But our society is so bound up in wanting vengeance and calling it justice that they will not change the system to something that would actually work to reduce crime.

 

[dabuddha]

No, we use incentives and positive reinforcement.



The job is not the natural behavior state. You don't go to your job in the hopes that you don't get fired, you go to your job for the incentive of getting paid. The 'punishment' here is simply the removal of the incentive.



Our court system does work this way, which is why recidivism is so high. This sort of punishment is simply not a very effective teaching tool for changing behavior, and we have known this since the 1940's when it was discovered that positive punishment did not actually decrease negative behaviors but only caused the subjects to put more effort into hiding them.
But our society is so bound up in wanting vengeance and calling it justice that they will not change the system to something that would actually work to reduce crime.

I'm curious as to what other alternatives you think would work. BTW in many many cases, vengeance does equal justice.

This is a good read: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/28/opinion/28rosenbaum.html?_r=0

 

[American Gunner]

I was spanked as a kid, and on very rare occasions spank my kids. But afterwards, we sit down and talk about why they were punished and how I expect them to act.

 

[rasczak]

Beating your children teaches them one thing: that if you're bigger than the person that you're in a conflict with, violence will solve the problem for you.

Imparting a good understanding of life and the world is far more beneficial than traumatizing them into listening to you, which is exactly what beating does.

Kids who get beat don't have any respect for their parents, they have FEAR of their parents. It creates people that behave only because they are afraid of what may happen if they don't behave, rather than behaving because they have been taught the merits of treating other people well.

Now your getting into physical abuse, which is NOT what we are talking about here. We are talking about employing a discipline method (spanking on the rear end), not a closed fist punch to the jaw.

 

[American Gunner]

Beating your children teaches them one thing: that if you're bigger than the person that you're in a conflict with, violence will solve the problem for you.

Imparting a good understanding of life and the world is far more beneficial than traumatizing them into listening to you, which is exactly what beating does.

Kids who get beat don't have any respect for their parents, they have FEAR of their parents. It creates people that behave only because they are afraid of what may happen if they don't behave, rather than behaving because they have been taught the merits of treating other people well.

An ATOT genius has spoken, so there is no argument. Oh, except for the fact that my dad spanked me when I acted like a little shit and I have nothing but respect for him. He taught me that there is right and wrong in the world, something that a lot of kids these days that don't get disciplined could really use.

 

[SlitheryDee]

The job is not the natural behavior state. You don't go to your job in the hopes that you don't get fired, you go to your job for the incentive of getting paid. The 'punishment' here is simply the removal of the incentive.

It is through getting paid that you are able to acquire food and shelter. If we're talking about natural behavior states or their equivalents, working for money to buy food and shelter is the same thing as directly acquiring food through hunting/gathering, or building for yourself. It's all work in exchange for things that help you stay alive. The punishment for not getting food and shelter is death. Now we can go on about how our society has safety nets that allow people who aren't working to get food and shelter anyway, but that's kind of outside the incentive/reward/punishment argument that's going on here. The employer doesn't directly threaten you with bodily harm because the removal of the "incentive" he provides would normally result in your starvation and death. In any kind of state that approaches natural, you'd damn well better hope you don't get fired.

 

[SMOGZINN]

I'm curious as to what other alternatives you think would work. BTW in many many cases, vengeance does equal justice.

This is a good read: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/28/opinion/28rosenbaum.html?_r=0

I read your Op-Ed piece about vengeance, and in the end all it really says can be discribed as punching people in the face makes the puncher feel really good so we should punch more people in the face. I don't accept that. I think we should strive for something greater then simply appeasing the feelings of grieving people.

We can do real work on reducing the causes of crime. We can work on helping the hurt people grieve. We can work at teaching criminals a better way to live instead of making their situation worse.

 

[SMOGZINN]

It is through getting paid that you are able to acquire food and shelter. If we're talking about natural behavior states or their equivalents, working for money to buy food and shelter is the same thing as directly acquiring food through hunting/gathering, or building for yourself. It's all work in exchange for things that help you stay alive. The punishment for not getting food and shelter is death. Now we can go on about how our society has safety nets that allow people who aren't working to get food and shelter anyway, but that's kind of outside the incentive/reward/punishment argument that's going on here. The employer doesn't directly threaten you with bodily harm because the removal of the "incentive" he provides would normally result in your starvation and death. In any kind of state that approaches natural, you'd damn well better hope you don't get fired.

This would be a fair argument if people worked just long enough to make enough money to survive. Obviously they don't. Therefore the vast majority of work is done for incentive, not from a fear of starvation.

 

[American Gunner]

I read your Op-Ed piece about vengeance, and in the end all it really says can be discribed as punching people in the face makes the puncher feel really good so we should punch more people in the face. I don't accept that. I think we should strive for something greater then simply appeasing the feelings of grieving people.

We can do real work on reducing the causes of crime. We can work on helping the hurt people grieve. We can work at teaching criminals a better way to live instead of making their situation worse.

I work in a prison and I know that inmates are given a lot of self help classes and ways to better themselves. I also know that many of them will freely admit that they plan on doing the same things once they get out. Some people are just lost causes, and it's time that everyone starts to realize that.

 

[dabuddha]

I read your Op-Ed piece about vengeance, and in the end all it really says can be discribed as punching people in the face makes the puncher feel really good so we should punch more people in the face. I don't accept that. I think we should strive for something greater then simply appeasing the feelings of grieving people.

We can do real work on reducing the causes of crime. We can work on helping the hurt people grieve. We can work at teaching criminals a better way to live instead of making their situation worse.

That's not the message I got from the article but regardless, what would you tell the dad whose 4 year old daughter was brutally raped and murdered? What do you think should happen to the perp?

 

[shadow9d9]

I would never hit my kid for misbehaving or making bad grades. That said, I won't tolerate disrespect from him.

In my house, I'm the boss. And if he challenges my authority, or his mother's, I'll get into his face and make sure he knows I take it seriously. I wouldn't hesitate to spank him in that situation, but honestly I've never had to.

Big tough guy you are.

 

[shadow9d9]

An ATOT genius has spoken, so there is no argument. Oh, except for the fact that my dad spanked me when I acted like a little shit and I have nothing but respect for him. He taught me that there is right and wrong in the world, something that a lot of kids these days that don't get disciplined could really use.

Right, hitting you taught you about right or wrong.. there is obviously no other way to do that... and here you are to rationalize and justify it!

 

[SheHateMe]

I'll think about this thread the next time I go to the Grocery store and some little White kid demanding his mom buy him shit and falling all over the store when she doesnt.

Ive seen small children doing this, I've seen toddlers doing it....the parents act like they're powerless.

My mom would have beat my ass right there in the store.

When we pulled up to the store, I knew not to ask for anything unless we were toy shopping, not to touch anything, and not to talk to strangers.

 

[American Gunner]

Right, hitting you taught you about right or wrong.. there is obviously no other way to do that... and here you are to rationalize and justify it!

I broke the rules and I was spanked for it. I bet most people that are against it don't have any children at all. That or your kids act like entitled shits all the time. Let me guess, if I do something really bad, my dad should sit down and have a long talk about what I did. And in the end, I will never do it again because his talk set me straight. Am I right?

 

[Vdubchaos]

I'll think about this thread the next time I go to the Grocery store and some little White kid demanding his mom buy him shit and falling all over the store when she doesnt.


My mom would have beat my ass right there in the store.

We live in an age where kids rule the households. I see it all the time.

Blame the parents.

 

[shadow9d9]

I broke the rules and I was spanked for it. I bet most people that are against it don't have any children at all. That or your kids act like entitled shits all the time. Let me guess, if I do something really bad, my dad should sit down and have a long talk about what I did. And in the end, I will never do it again because his talk set me straight. Am I right?

Using assumptions as fact is rarely a great argument... It is the weakest I could think of ... then you followed by a straw man.

Plus, if you had read the thread, you would have seen that I already answered that I do have a child.

So, your argument is that if you do not hit your kid, it is because you either don't have a kid or your kid must be a monster.. there are therefore no other, more constructive ways to deal with a child.

When violence, the most base and barbaric option, is all you have.. well, let's just say that you aren't much of an actual parent.

 

[American Gunner]

When violence, the most base and barbaric option, is all you have.. well, let's just say that you aren't much of an actual parent.

Yeah, see right here this makes me laugh. Someone that isn't a parent has absolutely nothing to throw in to any argument involving being a parent. I have spanked my kids. Now that I think about it, it has probably been about 2-3 years since I have done it though. My kids learned how to behave themselves, so I am glad that I actually disciplined them.

 

[Broheim]

I broke the rules and I was spanked for it. I bet most people that are against it don't have any children at all. That or your kids act like entitled shits all the time. Let me guess, if I do something really bad, my dad should sit down and have a long talk about what I did. And in the end, I will never do it again because his talk set me straight. Am I right?

seemed to work for me and my friends...